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Post by jasonward on Aug 21, 2017 13:25:12 GMT
I'm curious why people find this video so fascinating, Chris has not only aged by some 31 years, there is more time between now and then, than there was between his birth and then, even if he hadn't become a professional in the field and someone now steeped in the art, that's a lot of time to change your mind, and most people do when it comes to things like this over that expanse of time, but as someone who is a professional at what they do and steeped in the art, even if he holds similar basic views, they will be very much refined and nuanced and balanced by his own experience and the experience of getting criticism of his own work.
As a amusing piece of history this video is cool, but it's value beyond that seems lacking to me.
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Post by mark687 on Aug 21, 2017 13:49:52 GMT
I'm curious why people find this video so fascinating, Chris has not only aged by some 31 years, there is more time between now and then, than there was between his birth and then, even if he hadn't become a professional in the field and someone now steeped in the art, that's a lot of time to change your mind, and most people do when it comes to things like this over that expanse of time, but as someone who is a professional at what they do and steeped in the art, even if he holds similar basic views, they will be very much refined and nuanced and balanced by his own experience and the experience of getting criticism of his own work. As a amusing piece of history this video is cool, but it's value beyond that seems lacking to me. Because its the 1st example I can think of the "entitled fan" effect, you've got a debate on the current state of the programme presented by someone with no interest in the programme, with a load of adult men with no writing experience at the time, criticizing the writing to a pair of writers faces, while at same time defending the fact they still watch and their right to complain, at least he may understand where its coming from if he gets similar.
The updated video indicates that he'll go in a character rather than situation led direction which could be good.
Regards
mark687
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Post by jasonward on Aug 21, 2017 14:01:18 GMT
I'm curious why people find this video so fascinating, Chris has not only aged by some 31 years, there is more time between now and then, than there was between his birth and then, even if he hadn't become a professional in the field and someone now steeped in the art, that's a lot of time to change your mind, and most people do when it comes to things like this over that expanse of time, but as someone who is a professional at what they do and steeped in the art, even if he holds similar basic views, they will be very much refined and nuanced and balanced by his own experience and the experience of getting criticism of his own work. As a amusing piece of history this video is cool, but it's value beyond that seems lacking to me. Because its the 1st example I can think of the "entitled fan" effect, you've got a debate on the current state of the programme presented by someone with no interest in the programme, with a load of adult men with no writing experience at the time, criticizing the writing to a pair of writers faces, while at same time defending the fact they still watch and their right to complain, at least he may understand where its coming from if he gets similar.
The updated video indicates that he'll go in a character rather than situation led direction which could be good.
Regards
mark687
OK but doesn't that mean it has value as a piece of history but doesn't help inform the present? (I'm not sure what is meant by "The updated video").
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Post by mark687 on Aug 21, 2017 15:01:47 GMT
Because its the 1st example I can think of the "entitled fan" effect, you've got a debate on the current state of the programme presented by someone with no interest in the programme, with a load of adult men with no writing experience at the time, criticizing the writing to a pair of writers faces, while at same time defending the fact they still watch and their right to complain, at least he may understand where its coming from if he gets similar.
The updated video indicates that he'll go in a character rather than situation led direction which could be good.
Regards
mark687
OK but doesn't that mean it has value as a piece of history but doesn't help inform the present? (I'm not sure what is meant by "The updated video"). later in the Thread there's a video that wolf53 posted where he gives advice now that he is an established writer.
Regards
mark687
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Aug 21, 2017 17:04:15 GMT
Yeah, but (IMO) they were both awful. I rather liked Countrycide. "Because it makes me happy," might be burned into my consciousness forever. If it's not to your tastes, then it's not to your tastes. There's nothing that can be done about that from the outside. However, I wouldn't go condemning an entire tenure filled that will be filled with other writers (I think it's an absolute tragedy that Richard Curtis was never invited back) on events that haven't happened yet. Oh, I'm not writing him off. He's one of my least favorite choices, but I like Broadchurch series 1 and some of his Doctor Who episodes have been good. I'd say all of them have had at least good moments. Whittaker also seems like an excellent choice. I'm just not a great fan of his writing, especially coming off an era when Doctor Who was run by one of my all time favorite Doctor Who writers.
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Post by valeyard on Aug 21, 2017 17:41:10 GMT
I rather liked Countrycide. "Because it makes me happy," might be burned into my consciousness forever. If it's not to your tastes, then it's not to your tastes. There's nothing that can be done about that from the outside. However, I wouldn't go condemning an entire tenure filled that will be filled with other writers (I think it's an absolute tragedy that Richard Curtis was never invited back) on events that haven't happened yet. Oh, I'm not writing him off. He's one of my least favorite choices, but I like Broadchurch series 1 and some of his Doctor Who episodes have been good. I'd say all of them have had at least good moments. Whittaker also seems like an excellent choice. I'm just not a great fan of his writing, especially coming off an era when Doctor Who was run by one of my all time favorite Doctor Who writers. Contradiction?
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Aug 21, 2017 18:12:48 GMT
Oh, I'm not writing him off. He's one of my least favorite choices, but I like Broadchurch series 1 and some of his Doctor Who episodes have been good. I'd say all of them have had at least good moments. Whittaker also seems like an excellent choice. I'm just not a great fan of his writing, especially coming off an era when Doctor Who was run by one of my all time favorite Doctor Who writers. Contradiction? No.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2017 22:44:07 GMT
I rather liked Countrycide. "Because it makes me happy," might be burned into my consciousness forever. If it's not to your tastes, then it's not to your tastes. There's nothing that can be done about that from the outside. However, I wouldn't go condemning an entire tenure filled that will be filled with other writers (I think it's an absolute tragedy that Richard Curtis was never invited back) on events that haven't happened yet. Oh, I'm not writing him off. He's one of my least favorite choices, but I like Broadchurch series 1 and some of his Doctor Who episodes have been good. I'd say all of them have had at least good moments. Whittaker also seems like an excellent choice. I'm just not a great fan of his writing, especially coming off an era when Doctor Who was run by one of my all-time favorite Doctor Who writers. - His writing does not reflect his competency as a showrunner from a production perspective.
But the chances are he'll have a heavy influence on the show. Also the other shows he worked on have been a lot more adult - potentially why they're so great. So - unless he is going to make it more adult - I don't think he'll work. But I want to be proven wrong with him. It's just that the stories he's already written for the show don't inspire me with hope - although his other TV Credits do. Therefore I slightly worry that a person who's great at doing certain things is doing something he's not as good at. I'll answer both of these at once because they're very relevant to one another. It's an entirely reasonable fear on both fronts; anxiety over the possibility that maybe this new style won't work. However, we haven't actually seen what he's going to do with his era yet. Bob Holmes's scripts prior to Philip Hinchcliffe, aren't really indicative of where the show actually went when he took over. Particularly his early work on The Krotons and The Space Pirates. The desire to give him a fair hearing on both fronts is a good move because you're not going in with a confirmation bias (i.e. waiting for him to make a mistake and not actually enjoying the show). You're one step ahead of the curve in that you'll actually be watching to see what he does right, not what he does wrong. It will be different to Moffat, that's inevitable. It will have a different Doctor, different companions, a different aesthete because of the entirely new production crew, but different isn't necessarily bad. Citing Bill Hartnell to Pat Troughton, both are equally good in their own way, but I don't think one should be measured by the other until we're very much into the swing of things. If all else fails, Chibnall won't be the only new writer onboard, there'll always be something else to draw people back in. Who knows? Whittaker might be such a good actress that the occasional pedestrian storyline goes completely overlooked, I've yet to hear Capaldi be defined entirely by Sleep No More.
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Post by valeyard on Aug 22, 2017 9:02:51 GMT
Oh, I'm not writing him off. He's one of my least favorite choices, but I like Broadchurch series 1 and some of his Doctor Who episodes have been good. I'd say all of them have had at least good moments. Whittaker also seems like an excellent choice. I'm just not a great fan of his writing, especially coming off an era when Doctor Who was run by one of my all-time favorite Doctor Who writers. But the chances are he'll have a heavy influence on the show. Also the other shows he worked on have been a lot more adult - potentially why they're so great. So - unless he is going to make it more adult - I don't think he'll work. But I want to be proven wrong with him. It's just that the stories he's already written for the show don't inspire me with hope - although his other TV Credits do. Therefore I slightly worry that a person who's great at doing certain things is doing something he's not as good at. I'll answer both of these at once because they're very relevant to one another. It's an entirely reasonable fear on both fronts; anxiety over the possibility that maybe this new style won't work. However, we haven't actually seen what he's going to do with his era yet. Bob Holmes's scripts prior to Philip Hinchcliffe, aren't really indicative of where the show actually went when he took over. Particularly his early work on The Krotons and The Space Pirates. The desire to give him a fair hearing on both fronts is a good move because you're not going in with a confirmation bias (i.e. waiting for him to make a mistake and not actually enjoying the show). You're one step ahead of the curve in that you'll actually be watching to see what he does right, not what he does wrong. It will be different to Moffat, that's inevitable. It will have a different Doctor, different companions, a different aesthete because of the entirely new production crew, but different isn't necessarily bad. Citing Bill Hartnell to Pat Troughton, both are equally good in their own way, but I don't think one should be measured by the other until we're very much into the swing of things. If all else fails, Chibnall won't be the only new writer onboard, there'll always be something else to draw people back in. Who knows? Whittaker might be such a good actress that the occasional pedestrian storyline goes completely overlooked, I've yet to hear Capaldi be defined entirely by Sleep No More. As for comparing Robert Holmes work. You forgot how much he developed between The Space Pirate and when he became Script Editor. Look at his work on DW for the Pertwee years. It hasn't helped that Chibnall hasn't written for Who in so long.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 9:30:36 GMT
I'll answer both of these at once because they're very relevant to one another. It's an entirely reasonable fear on both fronts; anxiety over the possibility that maybe this new style won't work. However, we haven't actually seen what he's going to do with his era yet. Bob Holmes's scripts prior to Philip Hinchcliffe, aren't really indicative of where the show actually went when he took over. Particularly his early work on The Krotons and The Space Pirates. The desire to give him a fair hearing on both fronts is a good move because you're not going in with a confirmation bias (i.e. waiting for him to make a mistake and not actually enjoying the show). You're one step ahead of the curve in that you'll actually be watching to see what he does right, not what he does wrong. It will be different to Moffat, that's inevitable. It will have a different Doctor, different companions, a different aesthete because of the entirely new production crew, but different isn't necessarily bad. Citing Bill Hartnell to Pat Troughton, both are equally good in their own way, but I don't think one should be measured by the other until we're very much into the swing of things. If all else fails, Chibnall won't be the only new writer onboard, there'll always be something else to draw people back in. Who knows? Whittaker might be such a good actress that the occasional pedestrian storyline goes completely overlooked, I've yet to hear Capaldi be defined entirely by Sleep No More. As for comparing Robert Holmes work. You forgot how much he developed between The Space Pirate and when he became Script Editor. Look at his work on DW for the Pertwee years. It hasn't helped that Chibnall hasn't written for Who in so long. Nope, I'm well aware. Four serials in total with The Time Warrior probably being the weakest because he struggled with the medieval castle setting; The Horror of Fang Rock owes its own location to a bit of friendly retaliation from him to Dicks. I don't think Holmes and historicals got along very well, it just didn't fit his style of writing. I have a fondness for Terror of the Autons for how far it pushes its ideas, plastic flowers that spray a film over the mouth and nose that dissolves once the victim has suffocated to death is a horrific little invention. How does he demonstrate that? Well, by having one of the flowers spray Jo. He was very good at it. That's a heady mix of semantics and gushing though, the point of the matter was that it's a bit silly condemn someone's work when it literally doesn't exist yet. Neither one of them is guilty of this, but I've seen it elsewhere: rushing out of the gates to demand the man's head strikes me as a bit mad, to be honest. Moreover, there will be more to Chibnall's tenure than just Chibnall himself and putting that aside, outgoing producer Steven Moffat has actually praised him for his experience and believes he'll do rather well as the new producer because of that. I honestly think we have very little to worry about.
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Post by valeyard on Aug 22, 2017 9:34:40 GMT
As for comparing Robert Holmes work. You forgot how much he developed between The Space Pirate and when he became Script Editor. Look at his work on DW for the Pertwee years. It hasn't helped that Chibnall hasn't written for Who in so long. Nope, I'm well aware. Four serials in total with The Time Warrior probably being the weakest because he struggled with the medieval castle setting; The Horror of Fang Rock owes its own location to a bit of friendly retaliation from him to Dicks. I don't think Holmes and historicals got along very well, it just didn't fit his style of writing. I have a fondness for Terror of the Autons for how far it pushes its ideas, plastic flowers that spray a film over the mouth and nose that dissolves once the victim has suffocated to death is a horrific little invention. How does he demonstrate that? Well, by having one of the flowers spray Jo. He was very good at it. That's a heady mix of semantics and gushing though, the point of the matter was that it's a bit silly condemn someone's work when it literally doesn't exist yet. Neither one of them is guilty of this, but I've seen it elsewhere: rushing out of the gates to demand the man's head strikes me as a bit mad, to be honest. Moreover, there will be more to Chibnall's tenure than just Chibnall himself and putting that aside, outgoing producer Steven Moffat has actually praised him for his experience and believes he'll do rather well as the new producer because of that. I honestly think we have very little to worry about. LOL. The Time Warrior, the weakest? Linx is probably one the the best villains, and definitely the best Sontaran. It also contains some of the best dialogue, ever.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 9:41:59 GMT
Nope, I'm well aware. Four serials in total with The Time Warrior probably being the weakest because he struggled with the medieval castle setting; The Horror of Fang Rock owes its own location to a bit of friendly retaliation from him to Dicks. I don't think Holmes and historicals got along very well, it just didn't fit his style of writing. I have a fondness for Terror of the Autons for how far it pushes its ideas, plastic flowers that spray a film over the mouth and nose that dissolves once the victim has suffocated to death is a horrific little invention. How does he demonstrate that? Well, by having one of the flowers spray Jo. He was very good at it. That's a heady mix of semantics and gushing though, the point of the matter was that it's a bit silly condemn someone's work when it literally doesn't exist yet. Neither one of them is guilty of this, but I've seen it elsewhere: rushing out of the gates to demand the man's head strikes me as a bit mad, to be honest. Moreover, there will be more to Chibnall's tenure than just Chibnall himself and putting that aside, outgoing producer Steven Moffat has actually praised him for his experience and believes he'll do rather well as the new producer because of that. I honestly think we have very little to worry about. LOL. The Time Warrior, the weakest? Linx is probably one the the best villains, and definitely the best Sontaran. It also contains some of the best dialogue, ever. I think so, yes. It's Bob Holmes, so weak is still the layman's good, but it's definitely lacking the sparkle of some of his other stories, even with Jingo Linx. Nowhere near the misstep of The Power of Kroll though, a story which just goes to show not everyone's invincible. Terror of the Autons is definitely my favourite entry of his to the Pertwee era. Tightly paced, well-balanced use of both the Master and the Autons, solid introduction to Jo, very active and well-characterised Doctor and a bit more action than one typically expects from a Doctor Who story. Kicks off an entirely new era with much aplomb. Yep. There's a lot to recommend it.
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Post by number13 on Aug 22, 2017 10:43:01 GMT
LOL. The Time Warrior, the weakest? Linx is probably one the the best villains, and definitely the best Sontaran. It also contains some of the best dialogue, ever. I think so, yes. It's Bob Holmes, so weak is still the layman's good, but it's definitely lacking the sparkle of some of his other stories, even with Jingo Linx. Nowhere near the misstep of The Power of Kroll though, a story which just goes to show not everyone's invincible. Terror of the Autons is definitely my favourite entry of his to the Pertwee era. Tightly paced, well-balanced use of both the Master and the Autons, solid introduction to Jo, very active and well-characterised Doctor and a bit more action than one typically expects from a Doctor Who story. Kicks off an entirely new era with much aplomb. Yep. There's a lot to recommend it. Gadzooks, sirrah! I bow my knee in allegiance to 'The Time Warrior' and wilt challenge any knave who speaketh lightly of its noble name! And more to the point it was Elisabeth Sladen's favourite story, not surprising because it's perhaps the best character writing that Sarah was ever given. Having a companion-to-be think that the Doctor is the villain was a great idea. It gave us the best serious Sontaran to date, created the modern pseudo-historical and I enjoy every minute of the Olde English gadzookery between Irongron and Bloodaxe! Although the best line of all was a Terrance Dicks addition: 'A long-shanked rascal with a mighty nose'! Having said all that, I'd agree that in pure sci-fi terms, his three other Pertwee stories are better and I'm especially fond of 'Carnival of Monsters'. True, 'Terror of the Autons' is brilliant and has a special place for me as the first, terrifying! 'Doctor Who' I ever saw. And it is so efficient as well as action-packed and entertaining: introduces and establishes Jo, Mike Yates and The Master! and as you say reboots the show as a live-action cartoon melodrama after serious season 7. All in four episodes; top quality Robert Holmes.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Aug 22, 2017 11:46:28 GMT
You know what? Even though he comes across as a mouthy, entitled fan in this video, he does have a point: the script work on Trial was nowhere near the quality the show deserved, and I realise that this was also the fault of some extenuating circumstances, not just the commissioning of Pip and Jane Baker.
I also think that Chibnall's scripting work has been of varying quality but filled with some fabulous ideas (The Power of Three is a brilliant concept that might have worked better as a series of background events spread out over a few episodes. However, 42 is terrific) but his work as a producer has been of pretty good quality and I think that he will take the show into some interesting direction.
I'm certainly not going to judge him for something he said thirty years ago that really didn't do any harm.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 11:56:34 GMT
You know what? Even though he comes across as a mouthy, entitled fan in this video, he does have a point: the script work on Trial was nowhere near the quality the show deserved. He did come across as a mouthy entitled fan, but at least he got off his arse and did somehing about it. So good luck to him. We'll see how well he does next year...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 21:22:00 GMT
You know what? Even though he comes across as a mouthy, entitled fan in this video, he does have a point: the script work on Trial was nowhere near the quality the show deserved, and I realise that this was also the fault of some extenuating circumstances, not just the commissioning of Pip and Jane Baker. Not even the commissioning of the Bakers either really, it was more that Terror of the Vervoids was thought to be rather traditional. The duo were actually a rather good choice in hindsight, the future Doctor under Mel feels leaps and bounds away from his persona at the beginning of his life. I think so, yes. It's Bob Holmes, so weak is still the layman's good, but it's definitely lacking the sparkle of some of his other stories, even with Jingo Linx. Nowhere near the misstep of The Power of Kroll though, a story which just goes to show not everyone's invincible. Terror of the Autons is definitely my favourite entry of his to the Pertwee era. Tightly paced, well-balanced use of both the Master and the Autons, solid introduction to Jo, very active and well-characterised Doctor and a bit more action than one typically expects from a Doctor Who story. Kicks off an entirely new era with much aplomb. Yep. There's a lot to recommend it. Gadzooks, sirrah! I bow my knee in allegiance to 'The Time Warrior' and wilt challenge any knave who speaketh lightly of its noble name! And more to the point it was Elisabeth Sladen's favourite story, not surprising because it's perhaps the best character writing that Sarah was ever given. Having a companion-to-be think that the Doctor is the villain was a great idea. It gave us the best serious Sontaran to date, created the modern pseudo-historical and I enjoy every minute of the Olde English gadzookery between Irongron and Bloodaxe! Although the best line of all was a Terrance Dicks addition: 'A long-shanked rascal with a mighty nose'! Having said all that, I'd agree that in pure sci-fi terms, his three other Pertwee stories are better and I'm especially fond of 'Carnival of Monsters'. True, 'Terror of the Autons' is brilliant and has a special place for me as the first, terrifying! 'Doctor Who' I ever saw. And it is so efficient as well as action-packed and entertaining: introduces and establishes Jo, Mike Yates and The Master! and as you say reboots the show as a live-action cartoon melodrama after serious season 7. All in four episodes; top quality Robert Holmes. Like the Silurians, I don't think they ever quite managed to recapture the distinctive first look of a Sontaran. That rotting wood complexion. The closest might have been Stike and Varl on television (maybe Steg in Mindgame), but unfortunately, the costumes have a few problems at the seams.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 22:33:35 GMT
"HE CAN" but does that mean "HE WILL" This certainly is a big shakeup and I'm fine in waiting to see what they serve up, and make up my own mind after I've seen it. Yes, yes it does.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 22:34:47 GMT
Well, an important thing to remember is that out of all that could have been submitted, it's the current showrunner who selects what's put to paper. Chibnall has been responsible for writing The Power of Three, which was probably one of the most sitcom-like episodes of Matt Smith's tenure, and Countrycide, which was a deeply disturbing horror story about a very ordinary evil. The man's certainly got range. I think he has range. But I honestly don't think he's a Doctor Who writer - since his episodes for the show haven't been great. I'll link this video which criticizes Chibnall's work as it is rather good: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh8xyDlLXfcHACK FRAUD? Another opinionated oik! What a horrible little video.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 22:38:23 GMT
"HE CAN" but does that mean "HE WILL" This certainly is a big shakeup and I'm fine in waiting to see what they serve up, and make up my own mind after I've seen it. Yes, yes it does. I'm glad you are so sure, and I hope you are right but a lot of people are nervous and that's okay. Change is something that can be scary and a lot of people love this show more than any other. It really won't help when you are automatically dismissive of differing opinions, it would be much better if you were to accept them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2017 23:35:24 GMT
I'm glad you are so sure, and I hope you are right but a lot of people are nervous and that's okay. Change is something that can be scary and a lot of people love this show more than any other. It really won't help when you are automatically dismissive of differing opinions, it would be much better if you were to accept them. Or tolerate them, if not accept them. That's okay too.
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