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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2016 22:08:05 GMT
I was rewatching The War Games recently and it suddenly struck me how little we actually know about the main adversarial force behind that titular exercise. Their collective name actually stems from Malcolm Hulke's novelisation and Terrance Dicks's later sequel, and even then there is little evidence to suggest what their history may be other than that they are aware (and actively cautious) of the Time Lords. Speculation time -- who do we believe the War Lords were? A Time Lord scion like Faction Paradox, one of the post-human colonies or something much farther afield?
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 11, 2016 22:22:39 GMT
Despite what some or the expanded universe stuff claims, I don't believe they were called the "war lords". There leader was called the War Lord. I believe they were one of the many warlike races in the Doctor Who universe. They were sensitive to bright light, but they were nothing particularly special. I assume they only knew about the Time Lords because of the War Chief.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Dec 12, 2016 9:27:56 GMT
I've always thought they were a group of rebellious Time Lords who like the Doctor want to interfere with other planet's affairs, but for all the wrong reasons.
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 12, 2016 10:06:28 GMT
I've always thought they were a group of rebellious Time Lords who like the Doctor want to interfere with other planet's affairs, but for all the wrong reasons. The story made it pretty clear that the War Chief was the only Time Lord working with them.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Dec 12, 2016 10:44:02 GMT
They were Lords. Of War.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Dec 12, 2016 12:04:52 GMT
I've always thought they were a group of rebellious Time Lords who like the Doctor want to interfere with other planet's affairs, but for all the wrong reasons. The story made it pretty clear that the War Chief was the only Time Lord working with them. They could have been amnesiac.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on Dec 12, 2016 12:45:44 GMT
The story made it pretty clear that the War Chief was the only Time Lord working with them. They could have been amnesiac. Occam's Razor.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 16:10:43 GMT
Just a bunch of humanoids. The only odd thing is we don't hear their species name. Otherwise they're no more distinctive than the Dulcians. Or the Gonds.
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 12, 2016 18:08:33 GMT
Just a bunch of humanoids. The only odd thing is we don't hear their species name. Otherwise they're no more distinctive than the Dulcians. Or the Gonds. Well, they're less pathetic than the Dulcians and Gonds.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 11:44:27 GMT
Just a bunch of humanoids. The only odd thing is we don't hear their species name. Otherwise they're no more distinctive than the Dulcians. Or the Gonds. I dunno, they were enough of a threat that the Doctor had to bite the proverbial bullet and sacrifice his freedom by summoning his people. Considering how he took care of the Daleks in what was supposed to be their final end, I'd say that they're a great deal more than just another group of hominids. Setting up the War Games must have taken a great deal of time, effort and specialised coordination, it was only their petty in-fighting which ultimately brought them down.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 14, 2016 12:01:26 GMT
They are The Enemy
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 14, 2016 18:36:13 GMT
Just a bunch of humanoids. The only odd thing is we don't hear their species name. Otherwise they're no more distinctive than the Dulcians. Or the Gonds. I dunno, they were enough of a threat that the Doctor had to bite the proverbial bullet and sacrifice his freedom by summoning his people. Considering how he took care of the Daleks in what was supposed to be their final end, I'd say that they're a great deal more than just another group of hominids. Setting up the War Games must have taken a great deal of time, effort and specialised coordination, it was only their petty in-fighting which ultimately brought them down. The Doctor had already defeated the aliens by the time he called the Timr Lords. What he really needed them for was returning all the soldiers home. He couldn't control the TARDIS back then, and the SIDRATs were all broken, so he had no other way to get everyone back to their own times.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2016 19:30:39 GMT
Just a bunch of humanoids. The only odd thing is we don't hear their species name. Otherwise they're no more distinctive than the Dulcians. Or the Gonds. I dunno, they were enough of a threat that the Doctor had to bite the proverbial bullet and sacrifice his freedom by summoning his people. Considering how he took care of the Daleks in what was supposed to be their final end, I'd say that they're a great deal more than just another group of hominids. Setting up the War Games must have taken a great deal of time, effort and specialised coordination, it was only their petty in-fighting which ultimately brought them down. Bit.of a rubbish plan though, wasn't it. Let's get humans from different periods of earth's history to kill each other on our planet because just observing them do it on earth is too hard. After we've decided which are the best killers we'll then attempt to take over the universe, only to get massacred by someone like the Cybermen.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 0:28:54 GMT
I dunno, they were enough of a threat that the Doctor had to bite the proverbial bullet and sacrifice his freedom by summoning his people. Considering how he took care of the Daleks in what was supposed to be their final end, I'd say that they're a great deal more than just another group of hominids. Setting up the War Games must have taken a great deal of time, effort and specialised coordination, it was only their petty in-fighting which ultimately brought them down. The Doctor had already defeated the aliens by the time he called the Timr Lords. What he really needed them for was returning all the soldiers home. He couldn't control the TARDIS back then, and the SIDRATs were all broken, so he had no other way to get everyone back to their own times. True, and there were no guarantees that the aliens weren't going to send reinforcements once they'd found out what had happened with their latest operation. Remember that there was an entire homeworld that needed taking care of which could have rendered all the Doctor's efforts for naught. Bit.of a rubbish plan though, wasn't it. Let's get humans from different periods of earth's history to kill each other on our planet because just observing them do it on earth is too hard. After we've decided which are the best killers we'll then attempt to take over the universe, only to get massacred by someone like the Cybermen. Mmm, I suspect it wasn't quite as literal as just taking the best fighters and putting them onto the battlefield to be slaughtered. I suspect the whole thing was a lot more anthropological, studying the various tactics and manoeuvres of the most efficient fighting force and implementing them into their own forces while simultaneously bolstering the physical hardiness of the remaining troops. The mental conditioning machine would've proved integral to them conforming and those who were unable to survive the process of augmentation -- whether mental so they charge forward irrespective of pain or physical where they have literal armour -- would simply be used as cannon fodder. For instance, fighting the Cybermen you could have men like Carstairs injected with horrible techno-organic viruses like we saw in Second Chances that would erode the conversion unit and the victim themselves from the inside out. Then the remaining War Lords could have turned up and massacred the crippled survivors. They certainly have the technology on hand to manufacture and achieve such a scheme.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Dec 15, 2016 0:33:22 GMT
They are The Enemy Sir has had enough to drink.
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 15, 2016 1:06:28 GMT
The Doctor had already defeated the aliens by the time he called the Timr Lords. What he really needed them for was returning all the soldiers home. He couldn't control the TARDIS back then, and the SIDRATs were all broken, so he had no other way to get everyone back to their own times. True, and there were no guarantees that the aliens weren't going to send reinforcements once they'd found out what had happened with their latest operation. Remember that there was an entire homeworld that needed taking care of which could have rendered all the Doctor's efforts for naught. With the War Chief dead, and the SIDRATS not working, the aliens wouldn't have been able to go kidnap more soldiers. The Doctor was hoping that he would be able to send everyone home, and leave the aliens' plans thwarted. If the Doctor hadn't been forced to involve the Time Lords, the aliens probably would have popped up again at some point, with some other insane scheme, and the Doctor would have just stopped them again and again like he does with most of his enemies.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 2:01:18 GMT
True, and there were no guarantees that the aliens weren't going to send reinforcements once they'd found out what had happened with their latest operation. Remember that there was an entire homeworld that needed taking care of which could have rendered all the Doctor's efforts for naught. With the War Chief dead, and the SIDRATS not working, the aliens wouldn't have been able to go kidnap more soldiers. The Doctor was hoping that he would be able to send everyone home, and leave the aliens' plans thwarted. If the Doctor hadn't been forced to involve the Time Lords, the aliens probably would have popped up again at some point, with some other insane scheme, and the Doctor would have just stopped them again and again like he does with most of his enemies. With many more lives wasted uselessly in their horrific warmongering. If the Second Doctor had such a mentality, he would have left the Martian fleet to its own devices in The Seeds of Death rather than assisting in wiping them out. There are two avenues that could very easily be explored. Firstly, who's to say that they wouldn't have eventually found a means to mentally condition him to work for them? Secondly, the War Chief didn't have companions to threaten, but the Doctor himself does. Jamie and Zoe would have both been an exploitable liability. In fact, with the conditioning machine operational, the two of them could have acted as hostages. Programmed so that if the Doctor refuses to cooperate, they are instructed to end their own lives.
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 15, 2016 2:56:35 GMT
With the War Chief dead, and the SIDRATS not working, the aliens wouldn't have been able to go kidnap more soldiers. The Doctor was hoping that he would be able to send everyone home, and leave the aliens' plans thwarted. If the Doctor hadn't been forced to involve the Time Lords, the aliens probably would have popped up again at some point, with some other insane scheme, and the Doctor would have just stopped them again and again like he does with most of his enemies. With many more lives wasted uselessly in their horrific warmongering. If the Second Doctor had such a mentality, he would have left the Martian fleet to its own devices in The Seeds of Death rather than assisting in wiping them out. There are two avenues that could very easily be explored. Firstly, who's to say that they wouldn't have eventually found a means to mentally condition him to work for them? Secondly, the War Chief didn't have companions to threaten, but the Doctor himself does. Jamie and Zoe would have both been an exploitable liability. In fact, with the conditioning machine operational, the two of them could have acted as hostages. Programmed so that if the Doctor refuses to cooperate, they are instructed to end their own lives. The Doctor would have left their planet before they had a chance to do anything to him. And if they did take Jamie and Zoe hostage, he would have outwitted them somehow, because that is what he always does. The Doctor's usual method is to defeat the bad guys, but leave the species alive to show up in another episode. That's why the Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans, Ice Warriors, Weeping Angels, Nestene, Silurians, and all the other ones are able to make repeat appearances. The only reason that the Doctor was so desperate that he had to call the Time Lords was because he couldn't get all of the soldiers home, not because the aliens were too great a threat for him to deal with.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2016 5:32:33 GMT
The Doctor would have left their planet before they had a chance to do anything to him. And if they did take Jamie and Zoe hostage, he would have outwitted them somehow, because that is what he always does. The Doctor's usual method is to defeat the bad guys, but leave the species alive to show up in another episode. That's why the Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans, Ice Warriors, Weeping Angels, Nestene, Silurians, and all the other ones are able to make repeat appearances. The only reason that the Doctor was so desperate that he had to call the Time Lords was because he couldn't get all of the soldiers home, not because the aliens were too great a threat for him to deal with. That's true, I think one easily feeds into the other though. His first priority would definitely be the return of those still left alive following the games, but what's to stop the War Lords from using the knowledge they have already gleaned from their former Chief to continue on their own path? They may perhaps even have enough information to kidnap another Time Lord or time sensitive species capable of understanding the technology. Let's not forget that Genesis of the Daleks happened because the Time Lords had foreseen a future where the Daleks had won outright and wanted to eliminate the threat in its cradle, despite their continual defeat at the hands of the Doctor. There have also been instances where the problem was eliminated at its source as well. Remembrance of the Daleks ended with him annihilating their homeworld and Axos was enough of a threat that the Doctor did not allow it to go on burying its claws into the soil of other verdant worlds.
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Post by icecreamdf on Dec 15, 2016 6:05:33 GMT
The Doctor would have left their planet before they had a chance to do anything to him. And if they did take Jamie and Zoe hostage, he would have outwitted them somehow, because that is what he always does. The Doctor's usual method is to defeat the bad guys, but leave the species alive to show up in another episode. That's why the Daleks, Cybermen, Sontarans, Ice Warriors, Weeping Angels, Nestene, Silurians, and all the other ones are able to make repeat appearances. The only reason that the Doctor was so desperate that he had to call the Time Lords was because he couldn't get all of the soldiers home, not because the aliens were too great a threat for him to deal with. That's true, I think one easily feeds into the other though. His first priority would definitely be the return of those still left alive following the games, but what's to stop the War Lords from using the knowledge they have already gleaned from their former Chief to continue on their own path? They may perhaps even have enough information to kidnap another Time Lord or time sensitive species capable of understanding the technology. Let's not forget that Genesis of the Daleks happened because the Time Lords had foreseen a future where the Daleks had won outright and wanted to eliminate the threat in its cradle, despite their continual defeat at the hands of the Doctor. There have also been instances where the problem was eliminated at its source as well. Remembrance of the Daleks ended with him annihilating their homeworld and Axos was enough of a threat that the Doctor did not allow it to go on burying its claws into the soil of other verdant worlds. I don't think the aliens knew enough about time travel technology to make their own time machines. That's why the War Chief was around, and that is why it was so important that the SIDRATs were breaking down. The Doctor will sometimes ultimately defeat an enemy (like the Axons), but usually that's only if its the only way to stop their current invasion. The reason he put Axos in a time loop was to stop it from invading Earth. That just happened to also prevent them from invading anywhere else. Usually his goal is to stop the bad guys from doing whatever they're doing-not to stop them from ever doing anything bad again. It wasn't necessary for the Doctor to destroy Skaro in Remembrance (he could have programmed the Hand to just destroy the Imperial and Renegade ships near Earth), but the Seventh Doctor does things a bit differently than most other Doctors.
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