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Post by kalendorf on Mar 11, 2017 16:16:53 GMT
That one story (Warriors of the Deep) was bad and ruinous enough. In general I don't mind the Daleks coming back. As a massive, ruthless, determined galactic empire it makes sense they keep crossing paths with the Doctor, although I will admit New Who has overdone them- at the very least Journey's End ought to have been their last appearance. I've not been keen on the New Who Cyberman stories either. Warriors of the Deep may be bad, but were is the constant undoing of the Silurians/Sea Devils you mentioned? In that all three- the Silurians, Sea Devils, and the Doctor were undone and ruined beyond salvaging at once.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 17:09:21 GMT
Warriors of the Deep may be bad, but were is the constant undoing of the Silurians/Sea Devils you mentioned? In that all three- the Silurians, Sea Devils, and the Doctor were undone and ruined beyond salvaging at once. When you talked of them being undone in 'Warriors of the Deep', I thought you were referring to their masks!
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 11, 2017 20:56:33 GMT
In that all three- the Silurians, Sea Devils, and the Doctor were undone and ruined beyond salvaging at once. When you talked of them being undone in 'Warriors of the Deep', I thought you were referring to their masks! Well, this is Warriors of the Deep. It managed to do both in one go.
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Post by doomlord on Mar 11, 2017 21:21:57 GMT
Junking episodes from the 60s and 70s. Worst. Thing. Ever!
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 11, 2017 21:45:13 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down!
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 11, 2017 21:58:13 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down! The story is fine, but there are too many bad things about it - lighting, acting, Myrka...
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Post by doctorkernow on Mar 11, 2017 22:18:28 GMT
Hello again. For me Classic Who was at its worst during that interminable Trial. Week after week enduring the end of Roland Rat-the Series followed by half an hour of uninvolving, charmless Doctor Who.
After eighteen months, I expected something better. I thought the hiatus would give the production team an opportunity to come up something other than a trial. There had already been a trial. What we got was indeed a trial, for the viewer.
I've just remembered something else that really dented Classic Dr. Who. After this, the writing was on the wall and that was EastEnders. It meant that there was less money available and fewer episodes so that it was off air for longer than it had been previously. Public awareness of Dr. Who became less, and scheduling the programme against Coronation St. was a stupid decision unless you wanted to cancel the show and make Eldorado instead.
The McCoy years were very variable. You never knew what you were going to get. Time and the Rani is dreadful. However, the bubble traps were cool. Other stories suffered from over-acting guest stars, weird design choices, odd episodes where you hadn't a clue what was going on and two stories that had an almost identical plot except for the monsters.
No production team goes out to make a flop. If Doctor Who had started today, it probably wouldn't have survived today's savage world where series are culled after one series.
Classic Who and Nu-Who are still the same programme, capable of electrifying highs and mind-numbingly awful lows. Doctor Who is an extremely difficult programme to write for and to produce. Comprimises have to be made and things sometimes just don't work. Despite, the clunkers which every sci-fi show has Doctor Who is special as the fiftieth celebrations showed. It endures because of its flexible format and flawed yet indomitable hero.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 11, 2017 22:48:48 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down! The story is fine, but there are too many bad things about it - lighting, acting, Myrka... Jumping in on behalf of the Myrka here - I think it's hilariously funny to watch BECAUSE it's terrible. Where ever there is a terrible looking monster, you can be sure I'll be there! (And did I see something against the giant sewer rat from The Talons of Weng-Chiang earlier? )
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2017 22:51:00 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down! The Terrance Dicks novelisation proved that it could've been just as good as say Frontios or Planet of Fire had the production values been there. I'd say the worst thing about classic Who is definitely that so much of its early life has been literally erased from existence. Either that or that you can tell during the eighties how quickly the candle's beginning to burn at both ends, particularly during the Sixth Doctor's first year where there are only two stories out of six that do not have some kind of returning element (and even then one pretends to be a sequel anyway).
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Post by sherlock on Mar 11, 2017 23:44:30 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down! I think the story has potential but the dreaded budget meant it was very poorly put together.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 11, 2017 23:49:08 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down! I think the story has potential but the dreaded budget meant it was very poorly put together. It was also rushed.
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Post by kalendorf on Mar 11, 2017 23:57:51 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down! I'm not ashamed to hate it. It's not as if it's a particularly good-natured story. Infact I'd argue the script is every bit as mean-spirited as anything the critical fans have ever said about it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 0:13:35 GMT
Colin Baker's Sixth Doctor and that coat was particularly horrendous, as was most of the McCoy era. But by that stage the BBC had lost faith in the show and the budget was never going to be enough for the scope of the stories. So it suffered. There are actually some good stories there, they were just poorly realised.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 5:06:20 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down! I love it too! But it really does exhibit some rushed production values, wouldn't you agree? Ingrid's karate kick, even the poor old Myrka I have no problem with. But when the Silurians are walking away from the camera and you can quite clearly see the untucked masks flapping about at the back - I just don't know how that scene wasn't cut!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2017 7:34:08 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down! I'm not ashamed to hate it. It's not as if it's a particularly good-natured story. Infact I'd argue the script is every bit as mean-spirited as anything the critical fans have ever said about it. *scratches brow* You can interpret it as a fairly adult morality play about the Cold War. Unless people can forgive the old hurt, there will never be another way. Battlefield did something very similar with the Doctor and Morgaine's confrontation at the centre of that missile convoy. Both are very different in their approaches, Warriors is more show and Battlefield is more tell. Each are effective in their own way and I think it's easier to pick on a story with poor production values rather than say Resurrection of the Daleks which has a far higher body count (and Daleks) or even an audio production like Project: Lazarus or Creatures of Beauty.
Life isn't always fair. The Doctor doesn't always succeed, sometimes he fails and the consequences are awful. That's part of what makes the character so interesting. More so because much like the original Captain Scarlet series which echoes this same string of failures, our heroes are still there. They're still trying even faced with this kind tragedy again and again and again. He still tried to save those on Sarn, he still tried to save Peri, he refused to die on the warm console room floor. Despite everything, he is still the Doctor and that's a really powerful drive for a character to have. Empowered by their own failures and the injustice of the worlds around them.
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Post by omega on Mar 12, 2017 7:44:35 GMT
Just jumping in on behalf to Warriors of the Deep here - I love that story, and shame on all of you for dragging it down! The story is fine, but there are too many bad things about it - lighting, acting, Myrka... But the actual writing is pretty good, it's the execution that's not so well done. It's the same with Paradise Towers. The writing there was great, it's just that spray tan, cringeworthy future slang, a slender actor playing the character Pex and comedy legs hanging out of shiny white cleaning robots.
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Post by number13 on Mar 12, 2017 9:47:42 GMT
So we've done plenty of raking with NuWho, but now let's get to the sins of the original series. And for the sake of interesting discussion, no, you cannot select wobbly sets and rubber costumes. That's far, far too easy and obvious. Rubber costumes - a given, no other technology was available if you wanted 'organic' monsters. But sometimes they were excellent - the Zygons and the Sea Devils. Wobbly sets - the ONLY story that really stands out as 'wobbly set' territory for me is 'The Invisible Enemy' with four or five conspicous wobbles, which I noticed because normally the sets DON'T wobble. (And that season the budget problems were severe, with inflation around 20% destroying their budget as they worked.) Why would the sets wobble? There were a certain number of painted backcloth walls but most of those sets were solidly built by the same BBC teams who did Z Cars, The Classic Serial, etc., etc. Do people talk about sets on those shows wobbling? I don't think so - 'wobbly sets' is a meme for 'classic Doctor Who was rubbish'. (And I don't need to give my views on THAT view!) I think it was the great Barry Letts who said on one of the DVD commentaries that as producer, he would not have tolerated wobbly sets. (Wobble over, better now...!)
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Post by number13 on Mar 12, 2017 10:03:46 GMT
Worst Thing about Classic Who:
Landing Colin Baker and Sylvester McCoy with so many bad scripts. (And The Coat...) Both got just enough good scripts to show what fine Doctors* they might have been on TV, with producers and script editors like Hinchcliffe/Holmes or Letts/Dicks in charge.
(* Proved conclusively by their excellent Big Finish work.)
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 12, 2017 10:08:04 GMT
So we've done plenty of raking with NuWho, but now let's get to the sins of the original series. And for the sake of interesting discussion, no, you cannot select wobbly sets and rubber costumes. That's far, far too easy and obvious. Rubber costumes - a given, no other technology was available if you wanted 'organic' monsters. But sometimes they were excellent - the Zygons and the Sea Devils. Wobbly sets - the ONLY story that really stands out as 'wobbly set' territory for me is 'The Invisible Enemy' with four or five conspicous wobbles, which I noticed because normally the sets DON'T wobble. (And that season the budget problems were severe, with inflation around 20% destroying their budget as they worked.) Why would the sets wobble? There were a certain number of painted backcloth walls but most of those sets were solidly built by the same BBC teams who did Z Cars, The Classic Serial, etc., etc. Do people talk about sets on those shows wobbling? I don't think so - 'wobbly sets' is a meme for 'classic Doctor Who was rubbish'. (And I don't need to give my views on THAT view!) I think it was the great Barry Letts who said on one of the DVD commentaries that as producer, he would not have tolerated wobbly sets. (Wobble over, better now...!) Point is, it's an existant criticism of the old show, and not acknowledging it would be dishonest.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 12, 2017 10:15:19 GMT
I'm not ashamed to hate it. It's not as if it's a particularly good-natured story. Infact I'd argue the script is every bit as mean-spirited as anything the critical fans have ever said about it. *scratches brow* You can interpret it as a fairly adult morality play about the Cold War. Unless people can forgive the old hurt, there will never be another way. Battlefield did something very similar with the Doctor and Morgaine's confrontation at the centre of that missile convoy. Both are very different in their approaches, Warriors is more show and Battlefield is more tell. Each are effective in their own way and I think it's easier to pick on a story with poor production values rather than say Resurrection of the Daleks which has a far higher body count (and Daleks) or even an audio production like Project: Lazarus or Creatures of Beauty.
Life isn't always fair. The Doctor doesn't always succeed, sometimes he fails and the consequences are awful. That's part of what makes the character so interesting. More so because much like the original Captain Scarlet series which echoes this same string of failures, our heroes are still there. They're still trying even faced with this kind tragedy again and again and again. He still tried to save those on Sarn, he still tried to save Peri, he refused to die on the warm console room floor. Despite everything, he is still the Doctor and that's a really powerful drive for a character to have. Empowered by their own failures and the injustice of the worlds around them. All the intentions in the world can't change something if people just feel it doesn't work for them. Fair enough that the novelisation is better, but that's extraneous to the televised serial. They're seperate entities, and said serial was rewritten tons of times before a frame was shot. It's like the read the book to understand the movie argument.
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