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Post by theotherjosh on Mar 15, 2017 20:10:35 GMT
H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos is everywhere and has crossed over with or been alluded to in many, many properties.
A friend of my wife wrote the Cthulhu Mythos Bibliography & Concordance, which was exhaustive when it was published in the 90s and contained nearly 500 pages cataloging all manner of Mythos references. I'd wager that the it would be twice as large if published today.
I listened to the Lovecraftzine's podcast earlier today, because they were covering Lovecraftian influences in Doctor Who. It's worth it just for the description of Omega's headgear as a "Cylon Pope Hat"!
What do you guys think of the Lovecraftian elements in Doctor Who? Love them? Hate them? Indifferent?
My favorite Lovecraft fan theory is that Nyarlathotep was Rassilon. When enough Time Lords had been uploaded to it, the Matrix would reach critical mass and it would become self-aware and also be present at all points in time. Nyarlathotep planned to drive it insane at that point, thus creating Azathoth, the madness that lives in the center of the universe.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 15, 2017 20:47:31 GMT
I wrote my dissertation for my English degree on Lovecraft...years ago. Must really read him again. Amazing ideas and imagination, if you can get by the period racism and some clunky prose.
As for elements in Who? I DID like them, but these aren't things you can defeat, or even understand, and that usually doesn't lend itself well to a story with the Doctor in it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 21:38:41 GMT
I haven't quite read all of Lovecraft, but I've certainly read a fair bit - and I never really got any obvious parallels between HP and Doctor Who other than evil aliens being integrated into human society without us knowing it. But thinking about it, there must be more Lovecraftian elements in DW. Sea Devils living at Innsmouth? Was Henry Wentworth Akeley really a Zygon? And will Big Finish ever do a series of Lovecraft audios (I may have asked this before  ) I feel the need to listen to 'Lurkers at Sunlight's Edge' again! |
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Post by theotherjosh on Mar 15, 2017 23:25:38 GMT
I haven't quite read all of Lovecraft, but I've certainly read a fair bit - and I never really got any obvious parallels between HP and Doctor Who other than evil aliens being integrated into human society without us knowing it. But thinking about it, there must be more Lovecraftian elements in DW. Sea Devils living at Innsmouth? Was Henry Wentworth Akeley really a Zygon? And will Big Finish ever do a series of Lovecraft audios (I may have asked this before ) I feel the need to listen to 'Lurkers at Sunlight's Edge' again! Here's a site that offers some parallels. They paint with a broader brush than I would because if you count every instance aliens pretending to be gods as a specifically Lovecraftian trope that would include just about every episode of Doctor Who ever  I think that's something that would have to be adjudicated on a case by case basis. Link to the podcast. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2017 23:37:54 GMT
I haven't quite read all of Lovecraft, but I've certainly read a fair bit - and I never really got any obvious parallels between HP and Doctor Who other than evil aliens being integrated into human society without us knowing it. But thinking about it, there must be more Lovecraftian elements in DW. Sea Devils living at Innsmouth? Was Henry Wentworth Akeley really a Zygon? And will Big Finish ever do a series of Lovecraft audios (I may have asked this before ) I feel the need to listen to 'Lurkers at Sunlight's Edge' again! Here's a site that offers some parallels. They paint with a broader brush than I would because if you count every instance aliens pretending to be gods as a specifically Lovecraftian trope that would include just about every episode of Doctor Who ever I think that's something that would have to be adjudicated on a case by case basis. Link to the podcast. Blimey, what a list. I certainly intend to absorb this more tomorrow when I have more time, but immediately - 'The Underwater Menace', 'Image of the Fendahl' and especially 'The Curse of Fenric' stand out as really good examples. I can't imagine Andrew Cartmel never read any Lovecraft! Thanks for the link. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 2:32:32 GMT
I haven't quite read all of Lovecraft, but I've certainly read a fair bit - and I never really got any obvious parallels between HP and Doctor Who other than evil aliens being integrated into human society without us knowing it. But thinking about it, there must be more Lovecraftian elements in DW. Sea Devils living at Innsmouth? Was Henry Wentworth Akeley really a Zygon? And will Big Finish ever do a series of Lovecraft audios (I may have asked this before ) I feel the need to listen to 'Lurkers at Sunlight's Edge' again! An old Audio Visuals story written by Nick Briggs way back in the late eighties called Endurance is essentially At the Mountains of Madness with the Silurians replacing the Elder Things in the story. It's an absolutely marvellous creation, one of my most favourite Doctor Who stories ever. I've always loved stories that use a bit of Lovecraft as inspiration for their alien adversaries, it's what made All-Consuming Fire so notable for me in the first place. Who wouldn't enjoy a story of Sherlock Holmes vs. a Great Old One? |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 13:36:11 GMT
I haven't quite read all of Lovecraft, but I've certainly read a fair bit - and I never really got any obvious parallels between HP and Doctor Who other than evil aliens being integrated into human society without us knowing it. But thinking about it, there must be more Lovecraftian elements in DW. Sea Devils living at Innsmouth? Was Henry Wentworth Akeley really a Zygon? And will Big Finish ever do a series of Lovecraft audios (I may have asked this before ) I feel the need to listen to 'Lurkers at Sunlight's Edge' again! An old Audio Visuals story written by Nick Briggs way back in the late eighties called Endurance is essentially At the Mountains of Madness with the Silurians replacing the Elder Things in the story. It's an absolutely marvellous creation, one of my most favourite Doctor Who stories ever. I've always loved stories that use a bit of Lovecraft as inspiration for their alien adversaries, it's what made All-Consuming Fire so notable for me in the first place. Who wouldn't enjoy a story of Sherlock Holmes vs. a Great Old One? Shame BF didn't adapt 'Endurance' - or at least, not yet. Going back to the list - as Sometimes Joseph says, if you look hard enough, you can seen Lovecraftian parallels with Doctor Who almost everywhere! Most instant examples from the post 2005 series, for me, would be 'The Satan (Cthulu) Pit', 'The God Complex' and especially 'The Almost People'. Doctor Who and HP Lovecraft - two of the mightiest sci-fi story-tellers ever, and I never really looked for similarities between them before. Now, about Big Finish adapting some Lovecraft stories for audio ...  |
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 16, 2017 18:23:07 GMT
There's a list in one of the New Adventures of which 'Doctor Who' monsters were Lovecraft Things. The Animus was the Lloigor, the Great Intelligence was Yog-Sothoth, Fenric was Hastur (and there, or later, it was revealed that the Nestenes were the offspring of Shub-Niggurath.
I think the essential comparison is that they'll all sort of nebulous spirit things and at least one them impinged into this reality with tentacles.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 23:21:16 GMT
There's a list in one of the New Adventures of which 'Doctor Who' monsters were Lovecraft Things. The Animus was the Lloigor, the Great Intelligence was Yog-Sothoth, Fenric was Hastur (and there, or later, it was revealed that the Nestenes were the offspring of Shub-Niggurath. I think the essential comparison is that they'll all sort of nebulous spirit things and at least one them impinged into this reality with tentacles. Craig Hinton (via the Doctor) hypothesised that some were analogous to the Time Lords of the previous universe. They occupied a similar, inscrutable touchstone of power. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 16, 2017 23:40:29 GMT
Oh, Fenric as Hastur? I don't see that at all!
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 17, 2017 12:29:21 GMT
It was actually when i was looking at the VNA's on wikipedia that i found out about the whole Old Ones, being in the Whoniverse. I do think it adds certain touches to it. Which i enjoy
Also Cthulhu himself is meant to appear in the novel White Darkness
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 17, 2017 17:38:01 GMT
Also Cthulhu himself is meant to appear in the novel White Darkness Yes, although it wasn't meant to be Cthulhu (wrong ocean) it got picked up in later books that it had indeed been that one of the CCD. Similarly, it's often wrongly stated that Azathoth is in "All-Consuming Fire" (it's a wannabe). |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 18, 2017 12:40:44 GMT
Also Cthulhu himself is meant to appear in the novel White Darkness Yes, although it wasn't meant to be Cthulhu (wrong ocean) it got picked up in later books that it had indeed been that one of the CCD. Similarly, it's often wrongly stated that Azathoth is in "All-Consuming Fire" (it's a wannabe). Well I suppose with all the others being mentioned they hat to Retcon it to Cthulhu
I thought it was stated in All Consuming Fire that it was a wannabe at that time?
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 18, 2017 14:01:18 GMT
I thought it was stated in All Consuming Fire that it was a wannabe at that time?
Yes, but I'm pretty sure later authors mistakenly thought it was the real Azathoth. |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 19, 2017 12:48:26 GMT
I thought it was stated in All Consuming Fire that it was a wannabe at that time?
Yes, but I'm pretty sure later authors mistakenly thought it was the real Azathoth. Ah thats fair enough. so has the Real Azathoth ever appeared in Doctor Who? |
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Post by fitzoliverj on Mar 19, 2017 16:44:36 GMT
has the Real Azathoth ever appeared in Doctor Who? No, I think it would be impractical. That being said, some fans years ago came up with the idea that Azathoth is but the deification of a black hole through which the Great Old Ones entered the Whoniverse, which I think's a very clever diea. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2017 22:09:14 GMT
has the Real Azathoth ever appeared in Doctor Who? No, I think it would be impractical. That being said, some fans years ago came up with the idea that Azathoth is but the deification of a black hole through which the Great Old Ones entered the Whoniverse, which I think's a very clever idea. Mmm, certainly fits with The Pit's idea that some of Rassilon's earliest attempts at creating a black hole before Qqaba (as a means of creating the Eye of Harmony and thus the Web of Time itself) had... less than desirable outcomes. The one with the longest shadow being the Eternal War with the Yssgaroth, the first ever time war from the Gallifreyan perspective. Formless horrors that may have only been created by the grinding together of incompatible dimensions to begin with seems pretty accurate to Lovecraft. Along with the Great Vampire and his brood retaining their "blight" throughout their bloodlines. |
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 20, 2017 11:47:13 GMT
No, I think it would be impractical. That being said, some fans years ago came up with the idea that Azathoth is but the deification of a black hole through which the Great Old Ones entered the Whoniverse, which I think's a very clever idea. Mmm, certainly fits with The Pit's idea that some of Rassilon's earliest attempts at creating a black hole before Qqaba (as a means of creating the Eye of Harmony and thus the Web of Time itself) had... less than desirable outcomes. The one with the longest shadow being the Eternal War with the Yssgaroth, the first ever time war from the Gallifreyan perspective. Formless horrors that may have only been created by the grinding together of incompatible dimensions to begin with seems pretty accurate to Lovecraft. Along with the Great Vampire and his brood retaining their "blight" throughout their bloodlines. Oh I like all that. It took for the use of the Hand of Omega, to stop the taint of Azathoth coming through this particular Black Hole. Maybe he was the Nightmare Child of the Time War |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2017 23:21:30 GMT
Mmm, certainly fits with The Pit's idea that some of Rassilon's earliest attempts at creating a black hole before Qqaba (as a means of creating the Eye of Harmony and thus the Web of Time itself) had... less than desirable outcomes. The one with the longest shadow being the Eternal War with the Yssgaroth, the first ever time war from the Gallifreyan perspective. Formless horrors that may have only been created by the grinding together of incompatible dimensions to begin with seems pretty accurate to Lovecraft. Along with the Great Vampire and his brood retaining their "blight" throughout their bloodlines. Oh I like all that. It took for the use of the Hand of Omega, to stop the taint of Azathoth coming through this particular Black Hole. Maybe he was the Nightmare Child of the Time War All is possible. It's certainly one of my favourite additions to the mythos, it adds a whole new spin to the vampires. Much like what we see of the Doctor is only the avatar of a much more unknowable creature. |
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 21, 2017 3:56:45 GMT
Oh, apologies to fans of it but I've always thought that "The Doctor is the Other is some much more inscrutable thing" to be such BS. For me that actually detracts from him as a hero.
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I think that's something that would have to be adjudicated on a case by case basis. 
