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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 14:55:19 GMT
British Politics fascinate me. What is the difference between Labor and Lib Dems though? They're both center-left parties right? Nominally, though Labour's leader is much more left wing these days while the Lib-Dems were close enough to Tories to form the coalition with them in 2010 so it's not quite as easy to define either as "just" centre-left these days. Labour became much more centrist under Blair than ever before while the Liberals moved to the left under Kennedy and back under Campbell so it's a bit....icky. They disagee on tax rates, corporation taxes, prisons, education (never say "tuitiion fees" to a Lib-Dem, they get awfully embarassed), Trident renewal, defence spending, drug legalisation...many things.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 19, 2017 15:03:09 GMT
SNP Abstained 1st point to Ms May perhaps? Regards mark687 Not terribly sure it's first point to anyone. The motion was going through anyway just based on the big 2, so the SNP didn't want to vote along with the parties they're about to spend a month and a half attacking and even longer fighting for Indy2. If any Scottish party has learned anything from the collapse of Labour in Scotland, it's that you don't stand should to shoulder with Tories. Bit hard for the SNP to attack May for putting her party ahead of the Brexit negotiations if you back the motion, after all. Yet at the same time, the SNP can't look like they're just unwilling to lose their own virtual monopoly on the seats here. Abstention was really the only option that made any real sense. So if SNP end up losing any seats will this election count as damaging to them and a stronger endorsement of "we're all in this mess together".
Regards
mark687
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Post by sherlock on Apr 19, 2017 15:34:53 GMT
British Politics fascinate me. What is the difference between Labor and Lib Dems though? They're both center-left parties right? There is a fair amount of overlap, especially with post-Blair Labour, but there are specific areas they really disagree. One big difference going into this election is about Brexit, the Lib Dems are really pushing anti-Brexit whereas Labour is more accepting of the result (I think. Corbyn's not clear) Typically though Labour is more to the left, certainly some Labour supporters I know would take affront to it being seen as centre-left.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 15:55:28 GMT
Not terribly sure it's first point to anyone. The motion was going through anyway just based on the big 2, so the SNP didn't want to vote along with the parties they're about to spend a month and a half attacking and even longer fighting for Indy2. If any Scottish party has learned anything from the collapse of Labour in Scotland, it's that you don't stand should to shoulder with Tories. Bit hard for the SNP to attack May for putting her party ahead of the Brexit negotiations if you back the motion, after all. Yet at the same time, the SNP can't look like they're just unwilling to lose their own virtual monopoly on the seats here. Abstention was really the only option that made any real sense. So if SNP end up losing any seats will this election count as damaging to them and a stronger endorsement of "we're all in this mess together".
Regards
mark687
No, I don't think so. If they "only" win say 50 out of 59 rather than the 56 last time it's still an absolute tidalwave of a majority. Only losing quite a lot of seats would be damaging and that's as likely as Prime Minister Corbyn. Don't get me wrong, filthy rags like the Fail and the Torygraph would make hay out of any and every loss but that's true of anything against their right-wing ideals. I think there may be a seat or two lost in Scotlad but, like the Tories in England, it's hard to see the SNP coming out of this without a big win. I think the only losers will be Labour - though if it ends the current leadership then a lot of their own MPs will see it as shot term pain for long term gain, a la 1992. The Libs need to make gains but it's hard to see them doing too much this soon after their collapse.
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Post by jasonward on Apr 19, 2017 16:01:06 GMT
SNP Abstained 1st point to Ms May perhaps? Regards mark687 How so?
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Post by dasmaniac on Apr 19, 2017 16:25:11 GMT
What exactly makes the conservative party conservative? There's one issue that all the major conservative parties in the Western World support-republicanism but the UK Conservative Party supports Monarchism. How do British conservatives feel about federalism though? Would most British conservatives be aligned with the Democratic Party?
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Post by sherlock on Apr 19, 2017 16:34:54 GMT
What exactly makes the conservative party conservative? There's one issue that all the major conservative parties in the Western World support-republicanism but the UK Conservative Party supports Monarchism. How do British conservatives feel about federalism though? Would most British conservatives be aligned with the Democratic Party? It's conservative economically. Social conservatism is not a force in UK politics, and hasn't been since Cameron took over the Conservatives. Ironically enough it was a Conservative-led government that saw the legalisation of gay marriage for instance. As for the monarchy, no major party in the UK is opposed to the monarchy's existence (Corbyn's probably a republican but it isn't formal policy). No-one discusses the Queen in politics, at all. I think internationally the Queen's significance is overstated, she really doesn't do anything. The UK has a quasi-federalist system, introduced by Labour, whereby there are devolved bodies representing Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland with relatively limited powers. The only party in favour of a truly federal system (which would establish one for England and give them all more powers) is the Liberal Democrats. The Conservatives accept it and gave more powers to the bodies after the Scottish Independence referendum in 2014.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 19, 2017 16:49:03 GMT
Ironically I do think the rise of Corbyn was necessary because Labour was unelectable after the Iraq war and the financial crisis. It didn't have to be Corbyn, but the Blairite Neo-Tories needed to be stopped. And a term out of office whould have allowed them to rebuild Labour as a grassroots party. Sadly for us the Tories are (and Mods, you can sound off here if you want) literal comedy villains intent on extending slavery to everyone without a knighthood. That might seem excessive and prehaps some of ye have a decent Tory MP who works their arse off for their constituents. In the general scheme of Tory power those guys never get near actual government.
Labour's grassroots origin was lost to the likes of UKIP, who frankly have lied to the people over and over. I'd vote for Sinn Fein before UKIP if those were the options presented to me.
So the Tories will probably win, not because they have any policies for Brexit, they don't, but because they remain relatively united. Even if every single Blairite rebel were to wholeheartedly swing behind Corbyn and unite Labour for the election...would we believe them? And the Lib Dems? I voted Lib Dem in 2010 because I'm not someone who believes you have to vote for the big 2 or your vote is wasted, and if enough people fought against that then the big 2 WOULD run scared. But I was disappointed severely by their inability to actually wag the dog, showing that they had no concept of how a coalition actually works. The later claims that we never saw how bad it could have been if they hadn't been there are nonsense. We should have shown, that would have shown them in a better light.
And to the SNP? I hope ye clear the decks of every other party in Scotland. NI? Oh, please let that get sorted out, direct rule again is not a good idea because Westminster with a reinforced Tory mandate will give less of a s*it about the place in Brexit than it did calling the referendum.
Sorry for the vaguely incoherent rant.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Apr 19, 2017 17:20:30 GMT
What exactly makes the conservative party conservative? There's one issue that all the major conservative parties in the Western World support-republicanism but the UK Conservative Party supports Monarchism. It's difficult to be a republican in a monarchy and claim to be conserving things.... To be honest, I'm not sure that the 'Conservative' in the term 'Conservative and Unionist Party' means anything; whereas the little-mentioned 'unionist' bit means quite a lot. In America, the Democrats don't oppose the republic and the Republicans are not (ostensibly) opposed to democracy (on the other hand, I imagine that the Reform Party wanted to change things; at least change the two-party system...)
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Post by Timelord007 on Apr 19, 2017 17:39:18 GMT
What there's a General Election on 8th June, why hasn't there been any coverage on tv about this, I'm shocked?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 17:40:54 GMT
What exactly makes the conservative party conservative? There's one issue that all the major conservative parties in the Western World support-republicanism but the UK Conservative Party supports Monarchism. It's difficult to be a republican in a monarchy and claim to be conserving things.... To be honest, I'm not sure that the 'Conservative' in the term 'Conservative and Unionist Party' means anything; whereas the little-mentioned 'unionist' bit means quite a lot. In America, the Democrats don't oppose the republic and the Republicans are not (ostensibly) opposed to democracy (on the other hand, I imagine that the Reform Party wanted to change things; at least change the two-party system...) Certainly up here the Tories use the "Unionist" part a lot more than the "Conservative". Ruth Davidson even omitted the "C" word entirely from some of her 2016 election leaflets and posters to position themselves as the party for the no voter above being seen to be the same (gasp!) as the English Tories.
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Post by mark687 on Apr 19, 2017 17:48:37 GMT
So if SNP end up losing any seats will this election count as damaging to them and a stronger endorsement of "we're all in this mess together".
Regards
mark687
No, I don't think so. If they "only" win say 50 out of 59 rather than the 56 last time it's still an absolute tidalwave of a majority. Only losing quite a lot of seats would be damaging and that's as likely as Prime Minister Corbyn. Don't get me wrong, filthy rags like the Fail and the Torygraph would make hay out of any and every loss but that's true of anything against their right-wing ideals. I think there may be a seat or two lost in Scotlad but, like the Tories in England, it's hard to see the SNP coming out of this without a big win. I think the only losers will be Labour - though if it ends the current leadership then a lot of their own MPs will see it as shot term pain for long term gain, a la 1992. The Libs need to make gains but it's hard to see them doing too much this soon after their collapse. Fair comment but just an observation, I get my news from a variety of UK media outlets, some I agree with, some I don't, it doesn't necessarily make the reader any direction of wing.
Regards
mark687
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 19, 2017 17:56:48 GMT
What exactly makes the conservative party conservative? There's one issue that all the major conservative parties in the Western World support-republicanism but the UK Conservative Party supports Monarchism. It's difficult to be a republican in a monarchy and claim to be conserving things.... To be honest, I'm not sure that the 'Conservative' in the term 'Conservative and Unionist Party' means anything; whereas the little-mentioned 'unionist' bit means quite a lot. In America, the Democrats don't oppose the republic and the Republicans are not (ostensibly) opposed to democracy (on the other hand, I imagine that the Reform Party wanted to change things; at least change the two-party system...) I don't know where you're getting the idea that major conservative parties support republicanism. Conservative parties tend to support what they say are perceived normative traditional values and what they maintain the status quo should be (not is, should be). If that occurs in a republic then republic supported, if a monarchy then a monarchy supported.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 18:01:57 GMT
We are a democracy... We are people We can do anything Including leaving the EU.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 18:03:33 GMT
British Politics fascinate me. What is the difference between Labor and Lib Dems though? They're both center-left parties right? Ha. Well, you would think that. Lib Dems are ironically meant to be 2/3 more right right wing, but that's beginning to change, really.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 18:05:43 GMT
What exactly makes the conservative party conservative? There's one issue that all the major conservative parties in the Western World support-republicanism but the UK Conservative Party supports Monarchism. How do British conservatives feel about federalism though? Would most British conservatives be aligned with the Democratic Party? I get the impression that Conservatives in America are very different. The British Conservative Party is a bit of a mix of Republican and Democrat. In short, it's in the middle. Some would argue, though, that Cameron was more American Democrat and May is more American Republican. Don't know if I'd agree, since I don't know enough about the US political system and what stereotypes each.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 18:08:56 GMT
I think you might all be able to guess I'm voting tory. That said I don't think Corbyn's a bad leader. I don't agree with him whatsoever, but I can understand more why people would agree with him than, say, the Lib Dems (of whom I would rate as just as much enemies of democracy and the modern world as UKIP is). I suppose, though, the British citizens will mainly vote conservative, unless they agree with Corbyn (which unfortunately for him seems to be a minority), want to take an undemocratic turn for the UK or want us to become an extremely far right country. I mean, it is kind of predictable as to what the outcome'll be.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 19, 2017 18:30:28 GMT
What exactly makes the conservative party conservative? There's one issue that all the major conservative parties in the Western World support-republicanism but the UK Conservative Party supports Monarchism. How do British conservatives feel about federalism though? Would most British conservatives be aligned with the Democratic Party? I get the impression that Conservatives in America are very different. The British Conservative Party is a bit of a mix of Republican and Democrat. In short, it's in the middle. Some would argue, though, that Cameron was more American Democrat and May is more American Republican. Don't know if I'd agree, since I don't know enough about the US political system and what stereotypes each. I remember saying to some US friends that if Hillary Clinton was standing for election in the UK she'd be in the Conservative party, or the very right of Labour. Trump would be in UKIP simply because no one else would have him unless he was a backer. Even Sanders would have been rightish Labour if you attempt to compare the parties of the two countries. The Libs? Ah, lads, you screwed it up royally in the coalition.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 19:14:47 GMT
I get the impression that Conservatives in America are very different. The British Conservative Party is a bit of a mix of Republican and Democrat. In short, it's in the middle. Some would argue, though, that Cameron was more American Democrat and May is more American Republican. Don't know if I'd agree, since I don't know enough about the US political system and what stereotypes each. I remember saying to some US friends that if Hillary Clinton was standing for election in the UK she'd be in the Conservative party, or the very right of Labour. Trump would be in UKIP simply because no one else would have him unless he was a backer. Even Sanders would have been rightish Labour if you attempt to compare the parties of the two countries. The Libs? Ah, lads, you screwed it up royally in the coalition. Yes. I'll say UKIP have their moments but they're few and far between. Clinton would probably have been a right-ish champagne socialist labour. Or at least that's how I see her. And, yeah, Trump'd be UKIP. The US definitely got a very raw deal.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 19, 2017 19:25:10 GMT
I remember saying to some US friends that if Hillary Clinton was standing for election in the UK she'd be in the Conservative party, or the very right of Labour. Trump would be in UKIP simply because no one else would have him unless he was a backer. Even Sanders would have been rightish Labour if you attempt to compare the parties of the two countries. The Libs? Ah, lads, you screwed it up royally in the coalition. Yes. I'll say UKIP have their moments but they're few and far between. Clinton would probably have been a right-ish champagne socialist labour. Or at least that's how I see her. And, yeah, Trump'd be UKIP. The US definitely got a very raw deal. I know you vote Tory and I never will, and never the twain shall meet, but I think we can still stand together and stare at the shambles of US "democracy" and go "WTF?" I mean, what? Never mind Trump in the end, just the entire thing really.
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