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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 9:48:36 GMT
I thought her redemption was well done & came to a logical tragic conclusion with Simm killing her. & she is dead. That is that. We have seen the final end of The Master & the price she has paid for redeeming herself. So, I don't think Simm will regenerate into Missy, it was left deliberately vague for this purpose I feel.
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Post by number13 on Jul 2, 2017 11:04:30 GMT
I thought her redemption was well done & came to a logical tragic conclusion with Simm killing her. & she is dead. That is that. We have seen the final end of The Master & the price she has paid for redeeming herself. So, I don't think Simm will regenerate into Missy, it was left deliberately vague for this purpose I feel. The Master has already regenerated (into Missy - maybe, or maybe there are several more incarnations between them), there's nothing he can do about it, it's happened (from her timeline viewpoint) and it's about to happen (from his) as we see him descending in the lift, laughing at the irony of his fate... great scene. And as for Missy... the Master will be back - the character is too good to lose and there's always a hand-waving scripty way to do it. Any of those other possible incarnations might show up. Or, if they want to have Missy survive Certain Final Death and regenerate - well, we've seen the Master trapped in an unbreakable time loop inside an alien parasite, trapped in his own TARDIS with a T-Rex, roasted by a volcano, disintegrated by the Daleks and cremated by the Doctor in person with full ceremony. The Master always survives ( evil chuckle fading...)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 11:17:54 GMT
I thought her redemption was well done & came to a logical tragic conclusion with Simm killing her. & she is dead. That is that. We have seen the final end of The Master & the price she has paid for redeeming herself. So, I don't think Simm will regenerate into Missy, it was left deliberately vague for this purpose I feel. The Master has already regenerated (into Missy - maybe), there's nothing he can do about it, it's happened (from her timeline viewpoint) and it's about to happen (from his) as we see him descending in the lift, laughing at the irony of his fate... great scene. And as for Missy... the Master will be back - the character is too good to lose and there's always a hand-waving scripty way to do it. I've seen him trapped in an unbreakable time loop inside an alien parasite, trapped in his own TARDIS with a T-Rex, roasted by a volcano, disintegrated by the Daleks and cremated by the Doctor in person with full ceremony. The Master always survives ( evil chuckle fading...) Yes, The Master will be back but it appears to have been left vague about whether Simm regenerates into Missy. Missy herself was not clear on this & Simm just made the assumption. I think this was a deliberate move on Moffat's part, as was not showing Simm regenerate. There is room for Masters inbetween the 2. Personally that's my take on it.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 2, 2017 15:47:31 GMT
Missy's redemption was well done. And of course the Master would kill him/herself before letting them redeem.
As for if the Master's really gone, to quote the man himself 'Everyone knows I'm indestructible'
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 3, 2017 22:27:01 GMT
I found the redemption wholly inadequate, but I don't think there is any way it could be otherwise. Moffat tried for the death as redemption cliché, but we don't even get that.
Imagine if Torquemada tried to rescue a puppy after years of being Grand Inquisitor of the Spanish Inquisition but got hit by a carriage while he was doing it.
But even that is being too charitable. Imagine instead if he only talked about rescuing a puppy, but then died from a stroke before he could do it.
Missy didn't do anything other than mumble a couple platitudes and express a vague desire to help the Doctor. That's not redemption.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jul 4, 2017 11:37:44 GMT
Well oddly now I can picture if and when the Master does come back in however many years it takes. I can just picture him coming in and saving the Doctors ass. now that would be a shock
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 4, 2017 18:54:25 GMT
I found the redemption wholly inadequate, but I don't think there is any way it could be otherwise. Moffat tried for the death as redemption cliché, but we don't even get that. Imagine if Torquemada tried to rescue a puppy after years of being Grand Inquisitor of the Spanish Inquisition but got hit by a carriage while he was doing it. But even that is being too charitable. Imagine instead if he only talked about rescuing a puppy, but then died from a stroke before he could do it. Missy didn't do anything other than mumble a couple platitudes and express a vague desire to help the Doctor. That's not redemption. I can see that point, but to me the redemption came when Missy stabbed the Master. That was like the T-Rex in Jurassic Park: she's set free, she becomes the monster of the piece but then she redeems herself by killing the much bigger threat.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 1:50:43 GMT
Missy's redemption was well done. And of course the Master would kill him/herself before letting them redeem. As for if the Master's really gone, to quote the man himself 'Everyone knows I'm indestructible' Let's see... They've been shot in the back, burned and skinned alive, electrocuted, savaged by a tyrannosaurus rex, caught in an atomic explosion, trapped in a black hole, devoured by a psychotic TARDIS, punished by a Chronovore, fallen into the Eye of Harmony (twice) and the Delgado incarnation has now been killed more times than the Sixth Doctor. They'll be back... As for their redemption, I'm still a big believer in what Adventuress of Henrietta Street posited through the Man with the Rosette (who is highly likely the Master). They are both separate entities in their own right, but each fulfil their own cosmological niche. If the Valeyard, Savant or David Collings incarnation in the Unbound series are any indication, one day the Master may very well have to save the universe from the Doctor. Honestly, given what happens in Four Doctors and the Twelfth Doctor's first little stint as a man who simply does not care, Missy's change of heart feels like the universe hedging its bets.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 5:58:36 GMT
I found the redemption wholly inadequate, but I don't think there is any way it could be otherwise. Moffat tried for the death as redemption cliché, but we don't even get that. Imagine if Torquemada tried to rescue a puppy after years of being Grand Inquisitor of the Spanish Inquisition but got hit by a carriage while he was doing it. But even that is being too charitable. Imagine instead if he only talked about rescuing a puppy, but then died from a stroke before he could do it. Missy didn't do anything other than mumble a couple platitudes and express a vague desire to help the Doctor. That's not redemption. I don't think that's fair. This wasn't just an accidental death at the moment of redemption, it was the good and evil aspects of the character at war with each other, each prepared to die rather than lose. The thing that really annnoys me about it is the gender thing. The Master that finally chose to be good and stand with the Doctor was a woman and I think that undermined it because suddenly it becomes about women having more compassion etc etc.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 8:55:22 GMT
Probably not for a while though. I think the character will probably be rested for a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 10:17:59 GMT
Probably not for a while though. I think the character will probably be rested for a bit. Most likely. I'm hoping that Chibnall shies away from bringing back old foes, I'd like to see what new ideas they can conjure up instead.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 10:21:16 GMT
Probably not for a while though. I think the character will probably be rested for a bit. Most likely. I'm hoping that Chibnall shies away from bringing back old foes, I'd like to see what new ideas they can conjure up instead. I'd like a mixture of old and new monsters as usual. I think a new series take on the Sea Devils would be interesting, and I'd like to see the Sontarans come back in a Paternoster Gang story that puts Strax's loyalties to the test. Who is he loyal to when the Sontarans invade - his own race, or the 'family' he has grown to know and love on Earth?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 10:32:59 GMT
Most likely. I'm hoping that Chibnall shies away from bringing back old foes, I'd like to see what new ideas they can conjure up instead. I'd like a mixture of old and new monsters as usual. I think a new series take on the Sea Devils would be interesting, and I'd like to see the Sontarans come back in a Paternoster Gang story that puts Strax's loyalties to the test. Who is he loyal to when the Sontarans invade - his own race, or the 'family' he has grown to know and love on Earth? Well, we're guaranteed to get the Daleks back. I'd like to see them return to their roots as ruthless, devious exterminators rather than just be stand-ins. We still don't know what happened to Vastra's shelter. They could be entombed and active beneath London or all been wiped out by the humans, we just don't know. As for the Sontarans, they tend to make the situation black-and-white. I think they'd probably decide to shoot him for desertion (where's his squadron?) and consorting with lower species. Poor guy would probably have to sit out that particular fight for decency's sake if nothing else. I doubt that Vastra could convince him to betray military secrets, but you never know. She might be able to trick him, he's not particularly bright, even for a Sontaran grunt.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 12:41:43 GMT
I'd like a mixture of old and new monsters as usual. I think a new series take on the Sea Devils would be interesting, and I'd like to see the Sontarans come back in a Paternoster Gang story that puts Strax's loyalties to the test. Who is he loyal to when the Sontarans invade - his own race, or the 'family' he has grown to know and love on Earth? Well, we're guaranteed to get the Daleks back. I'd like to see them return to their roots as ruthless, devious exterminators rather than just be stand-ins. We still don't know what happened to Vastra's shelter. They could be entombed and active beneath London or all been wiped out by the humans, we just don't know. As for the Sontarans, they tend to make the situation black-and-white. I think they'd probably decide to shoot him for desertion (where's his squadron?) and consorting with lower species. Poor guy would probably have to sit out that particular fight for decency's sake if nothing else. I doubt that Vastra could convince him to betray military secrets, but you never know. She might be able to trick him, he's not particularly bright, even for a Sontaran grunt. I know some would rather the Daleks were given a rest but personally I think it makes sense to have them in every series. They're what the general audience expect to see. I'd like to see the Daleks do something truly shocking like kill the companion's mother. I think you could do a Strax loyalty story without having to result in the Sontarans killing Strax. They are clones, and as they all look identical he could be mistaken as being from the same Sontaran army. It would be interesting to explore Strax's loyalties IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 14:37:35 GMT
Well, we're guaranteed to get the Daleks back. I'd like to see them return to their roots as ruthless, devious exterminators rather than just be stand-ins. We still don't know what happened to Vastra's shelter. They could be entombed and active beneath London or all been wiped out by the humans, we just don't know. As for the Sontarans, they tend to make the situation black-and-white. I think they'd probably decide to shoot him for desertion (where's his squadron?) and consorting with lower species. Poor guy would probably have to sit out that particular fight for decency's sake if nothing else. I doubt that Vastra could convince him to betray military secrets, but you never know. She might be able to trick him, he's not particularly bright, even for a Sontaran grunt. I know some would rather the Daleks were given a rest but personally I think it makes sense to have them in every series. They're what the general audience expect to see. I'd like to see the Daleks do something truly shocking like kill the companion's mother. I think you could do a Strax loyalty story without having to result in the Sontarans killing Strax. They are clones, and as they all look identical he could be mistaken as being from the same Sontaran army. It would be interesting to explore Strax's loyalties IMO. Oh, absolutely, it's just that his superiors are not likely to treat his behaviour as acceptable. They'll almost certainly try to kill him and that could be very interesting storywise. The loyal Sontaran officer whose fellows believe has betrayed his calling with unbecoming conduct. Mindgame covered similar territory, when Steg questions whether the war is just, his rescuer shoots him in the head and moves on.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 14:51:20 GMT
I know some would rather the Daleks were given a rest but personally I think it makes sense to have them in every series. They're what the general audience expect to see. I'd like to see the Daleks do something truly shocking like kill the companion's mother. I think you could do a Strax loyalty story without having to result in the Sontarans killing Strax. They are clones, and as they all look identical he could be mistaken as being from the same Sontaran army. It would be interesting to explore Strax's loyalties IMO. Oh, absolutely, it's just that his superiors are not likely to treat his behaviour as acceptable. They'll almost certainly try to kill him and that could be very interesting storywise. The loyal Sontaran officer whose fellows believe has betrayed his calling with unbecoming conduct. Mindgame covered similar territory, when Steg questions whether the war is just, his rescuer shoots him in the head and moves on. It could be his superiors wanting to shoot him whilst the other Paternoster Gang care for his well-being that eventually makes his mind up that he belongs with Vastra and Jenny.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 5, 2017 15:01:16 GMT
Most likely. I'm hoping that Chibnall shies away from bringing back old foes, I'd like to see what new ideas they can conjure up instead. I'd like a mixture of old and new monsters as usual. I think a new series take on the Sea Devils would be interesting, and I'd like to see the Sontarans come back in a Paternoster Gang story that puts Strax's loyalties to the test. Who is he loyal to when the Sontarans invade - his own race, or the 'family' he has grown to know and love on Earth? I doubt we'll see the Paternoster Gang on screen once Moffat's left, as they were very much his creations. Hopefully him leaving Who will make it easier for Big Finish to use the characters as Strax meeting the Sontarans is a story I could see Big Finish doing and is a interesting concept. I hope Chibnall will dial back the continuity a bit, focus on new concepts and save old monsters for when there's a good story to be had.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 5, 2017 15:19:43 GMT
I'd like a mixture of old and new monsters as usual. I think a new series take on the Sea Devils would be interesting, and I'd like to see the Sontarans come back in a Paternoster Gang story that puts Strax's loyalties to the test. Who is he loyal to when the Sontarans invade - his own race, or the 'family' he has grown to know and love on Earth? I doubt we'll see the Paternoster Gang on screen once Moffat's left, as they were very much his creations. Hopefully him leaving Who will make it easier for Big Finish to use the characters as Strax meeting the Sontarans is a story I could see Big Finish doing and is a interesting concept. I hope Chibnall will dial back the continuity a bit, focus on new concepts and save old monsters for when there's a good story to be had. If the Short Trips competition let you use new series stuff, I'd have used it as my story proposal.
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