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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 7, 2017 14:11:20 GMT
This question grew out of the CD extras on Assassin in the Limelight. I forget who said it, but someone involved in production was pretty proud with the level of historical accuracy achieved with the story.
It seemed odd to me as an American listener, because most of the stuff they covered is fairly well known over here.
However, the pre-university education I received in world history was terrible. It was almost exactly the same blueprint every year. A little bit of European history leading up to Columbus, a heavy focus on America for the rest of the year. Whenever we discussed other countries, it was in the context of how they related to America. The school year would typically conclude with a bit on how we saved everyone in World War II.
It was only after I did some reading on my own afterward that I discovered that this perspective might have a tiny bit of bias to it.
Folks who grew up outside the U.S.: What did you learn about American history as kids? Folks who grew up within the U.S.: Did you have the same experience that I did as a kid, or was your education a little less skewed?
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Post by jasonward on Jun 7, 2017 14:27:54 GMT
It's been a long time since I was at school, but from memory we learned little to nothing about US history at school.
But it was a general meme that the US arrogantly claims to have done everything and won everything in the second world war, and this did and perhaps still does rub people up the wrong way.
Most US history I learned by way of the TV and cinema and things the adults around me said in reaction to those.
But when I was kid at school, the history we were taught was very insular, even to the extent that it was an English history, not even really dealing with Scotland or Wales and god forbid we learned anything about Europe, even the colonial era was skipped across as if it didn't really happen. History in my school was, English Kings and Queens, the Industrial Revolution and a smattering in secondary school of WWII greatest hits (Battle of Britian, Dunkirk, D-Day) and as far as I can remember that was it.
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Post by Hieronymus on Jun 7, 2017 14:59:00 GMT
I loved Seasons of Fear except for two huge gaffes on factual issues, one of which was historical: the Doctor and Charley both thought that Benjamin Franklin was President of the US. It left me wondering if most Europeans think Ben Franklin was a US president.
As an American, this bothers me.
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Post by jasonward on Jun 7, 2017 15:01:08 GMT
I loved Seasons of Fear except for two huge gaffes on factual issues, one of which was historical: the Doctor and Charley both thought that Benjamin Franklin was President of the US. It left me wondering if most Europeans think Ben Franklin was a US president. As an American, this bothers me. If you asked me who Ben Franklin was, I would have said a US president, I am somewhat bewildered to learn from your comment that he was not.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jun 7, 2017 15:04:40 GMT
Ok... but you may not like the answer...
in my history lessons we were tought
1 Americans were to blame for the economic downturn in the 30s.
They didn't want to help in eithet world War and had to be tricked into joining.
That they see themselves as world police.
And ... the fact that you were a colony isn't really mentioned between primary school and a levels...
Not good really
More later.
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Post by jasonward on Jun 7, 2017 15:08:52 GMT
I loved Seasons of Fear except for two huge gaffes on factual issues, one of which was historical: the Doctor and Charley both thought that Benjamin Franklin was President of the US. It left me wondering if most Europeans think Ben Franklin was a US president. As an American, this bothers me. If you asked me who Ben Franklin was, I would have said a US president, I am somewhat bewildered to learn from your comment that he was not. Oh that Ben Franklin, the kite guy from "Day Of The Tenticle". Still thought he was president though!
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 7, 2017 15:17:03 GMT
But it was a general meme that the US arrogantly claims to have done everything and won everything in the second world war, and this did and perhaps still does rub people up the wrong way. I grew up in a pretty rural area and the culture was more parochial than it might have been elsewhere, so I don't know how representative my experience was, but yeah. Honestly, it's hard to dispute that characterization.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jun 7, 2017 15:21:00 GMT
I loved Seasons of Fear except for two huge gaffes on factual issues, one of which was historical: the Doctor and Charley both thought that Benjamin Franklin was President of the US. It left me wondering if most Europeans think Ben Franklin was a US president. As an American, this bothers me. If you asked me who Ben Franklin was, I would have said a US president, I am somewhat bewildered to learn from your comment that he was not. Don't feel bad. I'm pretty sure a significant proportion of Americans would get that question wrong.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Jun 7, 2017 15:40:30 GMT
Folks who grew up outside the U.S.: What did you learn about American history as kids? I left School/Sixth form nearly a decade ago and haven't cared to think much about either since so my memories are rather vague. IIRC, in GCSE History one of the modules covered the American West (maybe the Civil War as well) 1820-1890(ish) we learned about Cowboys, manifest destiny, settlement of the Midwest, politics of the time etc. We also covered WW2 in some detail in secondary School, parts of which covered US History (I had an American exchange Teacher from Boston for one year, which was an interesting experience...), and at A-Level we did a module on the Cold War some of which covered the Vietnam War. Honestly I've learned more American History on my own from various history documentaries and books, and browsing Reddit/Wikipedia, couldn't name you many presidents or explain your political system though...
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Jun 7, 2017 15:41:42 GMT
I loved Seasons of Fear except for two huge gaffes on factual issues, one of which was historical: the Doctor and Charley both thought that Benjamin Franklin was President of the US. It left me wondering if most Europeans think Ben Franklin was a US president. As an American, this bothers me. If you asked me who Ben Franklin was, I would have said a US president, I am somewhat bewildered to learn from your comment that he was not. If you asked me who he was, I'd have guessed he was an ice cream inventor or something.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,849
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Post by aztec on Jun 7, 2017 15:44:12 GMT
I loved Seasons of Fear except for two huge gaffes on factual issues, one of which was historical: the Doctor and Charley both thought that Benjamin Franklin was President of the US. It left me wondering if most Europeans think Ben Franklin was a US president. As an American, this bothers me. Maybe that was deliberate? A nod at Charley's rescue screwing up the web of time?
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Post by muckypup on Jun 7, 2017 16:07:21 GMT
Ok... but you may not like the answer... in my history lessons we were tought 1 Americans were to blame for the economic downturn in the 30s. They didn't want to help in eithet world War and had to be tricked into joining. That they see themselves as world police. And ... the fact that you were a colony isn't really mentioned between primary school and a levels... Not good really More later. We were taught pretty much the same,
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Post by sherlock on Jun 7, 2017 16:26:39 GMT
Before A-Level I learned nothing of American history pre-1940s save some peripheral stuff to other countries like the Wall Street Crash. One option for GCSE which I didn't take (well I was just assigned at random) was 1920s and 30s America but other than that no real opportunity existed. It wasn't till I started A2 politics, which is about American politics, that I actually got filled in on the Revolutionary War, Constitution and Civil War stuff. So generally speaking our education syllabus misses America out pretty much.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 16:30:35 GMT
I was raised in Australia and I learned a tremendous amount of world history throughout both my primary and high school years, way before the elective system of higher education such as college and university kicked in. Though by world, to be honest 90℅ of that would have been made up of a mix of Australian, European and U.S. history, in pretty equal parts, with the other 10℅ being primarily Chinese and Japanese history, with a smattering of African along the way. I never thought that was particularly unusual at the time, or since, but maybe I'm wrong, and I was just lucky in that regard. Not trying to sound in any way superior or anything, but that people don't have even a basic knowledge of who Ben Franklin was both surprises, and, frankly, depresses me just a tiny bit.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jun 7, 2017 16:34:26 GMT
We did pick up a lot from tv...
Walton
Little house on the prairie
Streets of San fan disco
Star trek...
You know. Reliable sauces
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Post by acousticwolf on Jun 7, 2017 17:45:44 GMT
Ok... but you may not like the answer... in my history lessons we were tought 1 Americans were to blame for the economic downturn in the 30s. They didn't want to help in eithet world War and had to be tricked into joining. That they see themselves as world police. And ... the fact that you were a colony isn't really mentioned between primary school and a levels... Not good really More later. We were taught pretty much the same, Ditto. In the Sixth Form (year 12 & 13 in new money) we learnt about the electoral system, but only current not historical. Cheers Tony
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jun 7, 2017 17:55:29 GMT
Mind you... America is like 5 mins old... so maybe we should have done it.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jun 7, 2017 18:22:00 GMT
Henry VII turned down the chance of sponsering Christopher Columbus, but later got the Cabots to explore the Newfoundland fisheries the Bristol fishermen had known about for years ("America" deriving from the name of Richard Amereck, formerly ap Merrick). Later on, Elizabeth I and King James set up some colonies; one of which disappeared and only reappeared in horror movies centuries later. After some years, the Royal Navy and the US Navy joined forces to put an end to the Atlantic slave trade; the Americans were subsequently late to the First World War and only entered the Second World War because FDR ignored British warnings that the Japanese were coming.
Graduate historians will also be taught that the Americans thought it would be a good idea to give the British something to do with their soldiers during a brief lull in the Napoleonic Wars. It wasn't.
Post-graduate historians willl know that George Washington was either a rotten general who lost all his battles except the one that counted, and would nowadays be considered a war criminal for single-handedly starting a war with France, or a British officer (naval, I think) in the War of 1812.
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Post by kimalysong on Jun 7, 2017 19:03:45 GMT
Ok... but you may not like the answer... in my history lessons we were tought 1 Americans were to blame for the economic downturn in the 30s. They didn't want to help in eithet world War and had to be tricked into joining. That they see themselves as world police. And ... the fact that you were a colony isn't really mentioned between primary school and a levels... Not good really More later. We were taught pretty much the same, Tricked into joining? How's that? I can talk long about Isolationism in the US but the tides were turning well before US officially entered the War after Pearl Harbor. Yes the US should have entered sooner in hindsight but there were a lot of reasons why they didn't and why there was a strong isolationism stance (WWI being a reason). But then again the UK and France weren't blameless either they sat back and let Hitler do what he wanted until he invaded Poland in 1939 (again WWI). Hindsight is 20/20. For the record I don't actually expect non-Americans to know American history just as much as Americans have only a very basic understanding of world history. The world history we do learn in American schools is more ancient stuff and not really Modern European or Asian history (during the WWII for example). I expect if you want to learn that would be in more advanced college courses but I was done history at that point. Although I did take an Australian history course when I studied abroad in Australia. Even in the US we focus on the Revolutionary War and Civil War in Middle and High School. We might have very briefly touched WWI, WWII and the Post-War era. Most of what I know about these times I've learned on my own. However while I wouldn't expect the average non-American to know who Ben Franklin is if you are going to write about him simply googling would tell you he was never President. Psst either was Alexander Hamilton. But I live in Philadelphia so here Ben Franklin is our city's hero.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 7, 2017 19:24:37 GMT
I learned a fair bit (I knew Franklin wasn't a president for one). But I do think it was sideways learning from a laterally minded teacher. I mean I learned of the abolitionists and so on because Daniel O'Connell (a big deal in 19th Century Ireland, and Britain) was a devout one, even hosting Frederick Douglass on a tour of the country when he visited, and his letter to Irish immigrants to denounce slavery and racism because, to use a phrase from home, it was far from that they were raised! A piece of his 11 page denunciation: "How can the generous, the charitable, the humane, and the noble emotions of the Irish heart have become extinct amongst you? How can your nature be so totally changed as that you should become the apologists and advocates of the execrable system which makes man the property of his fellow man – destroys the foundation of all moral and social virtues – condemns to ignorance, immorality and irreligion, millions of our fellow creatures …? It was not in Ireland that you learned this cruelty… Over the broad Atlantic I pour forth my voice saying come out of such a land you Irishmen, or if you remain and dare continue to countenance the system of slavery that is supported there, we will recognize you as Irishmen no longer!" And there's more. I'll stop for now
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