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Post by pazzer on Jul 2, 2017 0:16:19 GMT
Not entirely sure what to make of that. Felt the Master and Missy were wasted. Apart from when they killed each other which was great. Nardole was great yet again and am sad to see him go.
Bill was amazing, loved the switch between cyberman and normal. Had hoped Heather would turn up and save her so was really happy when that happened. 7/10.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jul 2, 2017 0:32:56 GMT
Great conclusion to the story. The way we crossed between Ms Mackie and the cyberman was excellent. I'm going to try an experiment and watch both episodes back-to-back because it definitely felt like a movie to me. I had a hunch that Heather would come back and "fix" Bill as this season has felt like a proper story with an utter ton of foreshadowing and callbacks to earlier stories. Just a shame it felt like it was treading ground from last season. Great performances from everyone concerned, especially the Master/ Missy team. Great to have John Simm back: he was superb here.
My only niggle would be the regeneration: yes, it's a big deal, but do we have to have a montage every time? Although, when 12 did his rejection of it it felt more heartfelt and "rage against the dying of the light" than the "I don't want to go" we got from 10.
Loved the story, overall, especially the nods to Spare Parts and The World Shapers.
Overall: my favourite season of the revival.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 2, 2017 0:58:33 GMT
Moffat clearly has a thing for American westerns. And love worked best with The Doctor Falls. From Nardole's goodbye right through the end I was fighting off tears. Anyway, I have a mass of thoughts after finishing that but the main ones are Capaldi is a huge act to follow and this is easily the best Moffat run series and maybe the best series since the show came back.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 1:56:02 GMT
Wow. That was really something, it really does feel like a culmination of all that's been built up to this season. We finally got the boast that killed him and I don't think the series has looked this good in a very long time. Beautifully subtle acting from everyone here, everything from Pearl Mackie stomping around as Bill to Michelle Gomez being torn between the Master then and Missy now. A proper display of Delgado deviousness with her final solution. I'll miss her. The last minute retrieval of Bill was beautifully executed and for once, didn't feel like a tacked on afterthought. We even got continuity references as a foreshadowing of the end, this thing was just wonderfully written and executed.
This seems to have been the season of second chances with old ideas revitalised. It's a really good note to leave the series on and I hope that the Christmas special with our surprise guest doesn't end up Hell Bent and broken. Despite the overwhelming excitement at having the original come out of the winter winds, I genuinely want Capaldi to have a final moment to himself. Not aping his previous selves in a Trial and Tribbleations insert to The Tenth Planet, but as the Twelfth Doctor. The definitive man we've seen this season. Because he has been wonderful.
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Post by relativetime on Jul 2, 2017 5:30:53 GMT
This was truly something special. It's without a doubt the best finale since the show came back in 2005 and yet another top notch episode in a series that has, in my opinion, raised the bar for all New Who series. And I really liked Simm's Master in this! I'm happy to say this episode and the one before it have more than made up for the negative opinion I had of him in Series 3 and The End of Time. And that ending had me squealing like a kid again! Though, while I'm so excited for Christmas to come, I'm dreading it at the same time - it really does feel like it's too soon for Capaldi to leave!
On the topic of Missy, I hope if Chibnall does bring the Master back he keeps it vague as to whether it's an incarnation following Missy or following Simm. I really did feel like this episode was a tragic yet fitting conclusion for the Master. I was surprisingly very invested in seeing the character redeem herself this series, I have to say, and I'd be a bit disappointed to see the Master default back to before.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 6:18:06 GMT
Don't get the love for this episode. Felt like the masters were just tagged on. The doctors big speeches were nonsense rubbish. The cyber man menace seemed pointless. The final fight was also utter bobbins. I'll dance among the cyber men flicking my sonic about and then blow the whole level up with just doc and Bill surviving. Just bloody run away. Water Bill was okay but could have done with more preshadowing through the season. The refusal to regenerate seemed to come out of nowhere as well. At least there were some excellent bits. Bill as cyberman was played perfectly. Master v Master was good. A question though. What killed the doctor? He was already regenerating long before the final battle. Was it Missy who did for him? I think it was trauma caused by deep space exposure in Oxygen. And they explained why they couldn't just run away. time slows as you go up so the cybermen would just keep evolving below you and come after you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 6:21:46 GMT
This was truly something special. It's without a doubt the best finale since the show came back in 2005 and yet another top notch episode in a series that has, in my opinion, raised the bar for all New Who series. And I really liked Simm's Master in this! I'm happy to say this episode and the one before it have more than made up for the negative opinion I had of him in Series 3 and The End of Time. And that ending had me squealing like a kid again! Though, while I'm so excited for Christmas to come, I'm dreading it at the same time - it really does feel like it's too soon for Capaldi to leave! On the topic of Missy, I hope if Chibnall does bring the Master back he keeps it vague as to whether it's an incarnation following Missy or following Simm. I really did feel like this episode was a tragic yet fitting conclusion for the Master. I was surprisingly very invested in seeing the character redeem herself this series, I have to say, and I'd be a bit disappointed to see the Master default back to before. The most tragic thing is possibly that the Doctor doesn't know she killed the Master and turned back to join him.
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Post by omega on Jul 2, 2017 7:46:07 GMT
Where we last saw Bill reminded me of Charley's leaving the Eighth Doctor {Spoiler} She left him believing he was dead, while she went off traveling having left another friend behind.
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Post by doctorkernow on Jul 2, 2017 7:50:30 GMT
Hello again. Well that was interesting. I still prefer episode 11 but The Doctor Falls was an effective resolution to season 10 and a lead into the final episode of both the Capaldi and Moffatt eras.
The Cybermen were a relentless threat throughout the episode but were almost like cannon fodder. They were blown up left right and centre. Cyberbodies were flying all over the place. All it needed was the Raston Warrior robot to join in.
I did enjoy the Masters. Both were hilarious and their final fate while incredibly stupid was not surprising. One Master killing the other, Missy choosing to stand with the Doctor, the Master choosing to end his future rather than see any iteration of himself aid the Doctor. It was all very Greek tragedy.
Mr Moffatt does like to have his cake and eat it. Mirroring Series 9's finale the companion dies and is saved by a super-powered female. At least, this time it was a better fit. I was pleased Bill gets to fly around the cosmos and be back in time for tea. They could meet up with Clara and Me and even Jenny Who and defeat a deadly threat. It could be like Avenging Angels Assemble!
Speaking of the companions, Pearl Mackie is something special. Her performance as Bill has been outstanding. Her scenes with the Doctor and with Heather were extremely moving. For me, she is one of the best companions ever.
Matt Lucas's Nardole has been seen by some as superfluous, but I think he was an essential member of the TARDIS crew. His role was twofold. He was K9, carrying out useful work for the Doctor or perhaps like Data in Star Trek. He was also the comic relief. Matt Lucas was always pitch perfect as Nardole and his fate as 'babysitter' to and protector of 'a load of smelly humans' was just right.
Now, Peter Capaldi as the Doctor has been wonderful all season. People who have not watched this series have missed out on a truly interesting take on the Timelord. You never know what his Doctor is going to do next. In this episode, he was extraordinary. He was desperate to save the innocent, angry that this time he was only going to prolong the inevitable, distraught that he couldn't save Bill from becoming a Cyberman and fighting, continuously fighting to stay as this incarnation of the Doctor.
Patrick Mulkern in his review for Radio Times makes an interesting point that none of the regulars have any idea whether the other survived. All of them are doing different things and like life things are not tied up in a neat bow. The ship still faces oblivion in a black hole, and Nardole and his band of survivors may eventually be converted into Cybermen.
Can Rachel Talaly come back every year? Her direction is without doubt impressive. She manages to raise proceedings to a whole new level. Those 100 or so minutes would not look out of place in the cinema.
The design and music enhanced the story too. I do hope they keep Michael Pickwoad's TARDIS, it is my favourite version so far. It looks so real, it is hard to believe it is just a set in Cardiff. I think praise is due to the whole team for a thrilling rollercoaster ride of a story. Well done all, the finale this time was cinematic, well-written and entertaining.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 7:56:47 GMT
This was truly something special. It's without a doubt the best finale since the show came back in 2005 and yet another top notch episode in a series that has, in my opinion, raised the bar for all New Who series. And I really liked Simm's Master in this! I'm happy to say this episode and the one before it have more than made up for the negative opinion I had of him in Series 3 and The End of Time. And that ending had me squealing like a kid again! Though, while I'm so excited for Christmas to come, I'm dreading it at the same time - it really does feel like it's too soon for Capaldi to leave! On the topic of Missy, I hope if Chibnall does bring the Master back he keeps it vague as to whether it's an incarnation following Missy or following Simm. I really did feel like this episode was a tragic yet fitting conclusion for the Master. I was surprisingly very invested in seeing the character redeem herself this series, I have to say, and I'd be a bit disappointed to see the Master default back to before. The most tragic thing is possibly that the Doctor doesn't know she killed the Master and turned back to join him. That's my favourite thing about the whole ep.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 7:57:44 GMT
Moffat clearly has a thing for American westerns. I was thinking more Zulu with them being holed up, very Rorke's Drift.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jul 2, 2017 8:25:09 GMT
Fantastic finale & possibly the best ever episode Moffats written, this was epic, emotional, dramatic Doctor Who & i say this even though I'm not Moffats biggest fan but he's delivered a excellent series throughout & the finale was one of those goosebump event moments.
I'm emotionally exhausted & urgently need to lie down in the zero room..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 8:37:43 GMT
Notice how Missy was very vague about whether she followed directly on from Simm. Moffat is leaving Big Finish gaps again. Personally I think it's more leaving a gap so that the show itself can bring back the Master at a later date in a new incarnation, while still leaving Missy and her death as The Master's ultimate fate. That's why we don't see Simm's Master regenerate, I suspect. Also she can't plan to avoid it because Simm won't remember their meeting after their timelines separate in anything but the fuzziest of ways, even putting aside the trauma that he's about to regenerate soon, and any after effects that might have. As for the episode itself, I loved it, even if parts of it were recycled Moffat ideas with a new dab of paint (the Bill/Cyberman thing was basically just the Oswin/Dalek bit all over again...but who cares, it worked). I loved Simm in this, this was the Master I'd pictured when he was originally cast, and that we saw glimpses of between all the RTD over-the-top faffing about, so it was a great redemption for his incarnation of the character in my eyes. Missy this season was the best she's been, but this episode especially, performance wise, she gets to go out on a high, and fittingly. I didn't find either of them wasted at all, in fact I found them to be used far more interestingly and effectively than the character(s) often are. I loved that the episode wasn't one of quick fixes and easy answers, that there was a bittersweet element to everything, and that the companion exits were great, and had a purpose to them. Nobody just suddenly stopped wanting to travel with the Doctor, that choice was taken out of their hands by circumstance, effectively and believably. And I also like that they didn't foreshadow puddle girl, because otherwise everyone would have seen that 'fix' coming. Bill got a good ending without reversing any of the tragedy that had befallen her, and while safe for now, Nardole's own future is still uncertain, but then, that's life in a nutshell really. The only quibbles I had with the episode is the instant ability to 'make everything explode' schtick, which was a bit of a stretch, speaking into the sonic, which I hated, and David Bradley as the First Doctor, which I remain profoundly unconvinced about on a number of levels. But none of that dented the overall quality of the episode at all for me, and Capaldi was marvellous throughout. Hopefully the Christmas episode is equally good, and he gets the send off he so richly deserves. But man, what a great season. Moffat, Capaldi, Mackie, Lucas, Gomez and everyone else both in front of and behind the camera can be justifiably proud of what they delivered this time out.
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Post by iainbenson on Jul 2, 2017 10:08:08 GMT
I have to say, whilst it seemed to start off well, with great acting from Bill and some promising ideas, it degenerated into something of a mess. - They couldn't go back to the TARDIS because 1000s of years at the bottom would pass ... so how did they send partially completed cybermen up for Bill, but when they get back to the bottom with her they are still at the same stage down there? - How are Missy and the Master able to touch? What happened to the Blinovitch Limitation Effect? - If the Masters' time streams are out of sync so that he will forget everything until Missy experiences it, how did she manage to remember to carry a demat circuit everywhere? - Why were Missy/Master even there anyway? They did nothing that had any effect on the plot in the slightest. - Bill's ending was exactly the same as Clara's, and came completely from nowhere, there was absolutely no reason the pilot would come back for her, and no real explanation of how she managed to rip Bill's soul out of the cyberman. - Why did the doctor suddenly change from accepting his death as he blew the floor up, to waking up and turning back into a whiny petulant Tennant "I don't want to go"?
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Post by number13 on Jul 2, 2017 11:16:45 GMT
Maybe I am being a thicko, but was the 12th Doctor's attitude to regeneration implying he wanted to die at last, or simply was comfortable in his body and refusing to regenerate out of arrogance? Or a bit of both? I think The Doctor feels like I do - this Doctor is the right one and should stay. Unfortunately, it's too late for that, both in the series and the real world.
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Post by number13 on Jul 2, 2017 11:22:01 GMT
Moffat clearly has a thing for American westerns. I was thinking more Zulu with them being holed up, very Rorke's Drift. Or, as Nardole says (tactlessly and far too accurately) 'Remember the Alamo!' (Then he remembers and adds 'OK maybe not...' Going to miss Nardole.)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 12:26:40 GMT
I have to say, whilst it seemed to start off well, with great acting from Bill and some promising ideas, it degenerated into something of a mess. - They couldn't go back to the TARDIS because 1000s of years at the bottom would pass ... so how did they send partially completed cybermen up for Bill, but when they get back to the bottom with her they are still at the same stage down there? - How are Missy and the Master able to touch? What happened to the Blinovitch Limitation Effect? - If the Masters' time streams are out of sync so that he will forget everything until Missy experiences it, how did she manage to remember to carry a demat circuit everywhere? - Why were Missy/Master even there anyway? They did nothing that had any effect on the plot in the slightest. - Bill's ending was exactly the same as Clara's, and came completely from nowhere, there was absolutely no reason the pilot would come back for her, and no real explanation of how she managed to rip Bill's soul out of the cyberman. - Why did the doctor suddenly change from accepting his death as he blew the floor up, to waking up and turning back into a whiny petulant Tennant "I don't want to go"? I can see reasonable arguments in answer of all of those things. For example, we've had multiple stories over the years where different Doctors shook hands so the Blinovitch limitation effect obviously doesn't apply to Time Lords. And Capaldi's attitude is that he doesn't mind dying when there's no better choice but that if he's going to regenerate he wants to keep the same form. I could continue but I'm not up for an argument, I just want to bask in knowing my Doctor Who is back.
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Post by Bazoolium on Jul 2, 2017 12:54:27 GMT
It funny looking back that Eleven was never scared to die. He knew it was his final life, but he never really showed it. Maybe that was why he was so eager to settle down all the time, with the Pond and then on Christmas.
I am still not sure why Twelve doesn't want to regenerate.
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Post by kimalysong on Jul 2, 2017 12:57:17 GMT
Just finished and unlike the previous episode I managed to not be spoiled. The tears are still falling. It wasn't perfect but in general I really loved it. And I am just so happy Moffat can't give his companions sad endings. Because giving Bill a sad ending would not have sit right with me. And as far as magical resets go I think this was one of the best tying back to the first episode. It didn't feel like it came fromnowhere and was thematically strong. I am going to miss Bill so much definitely one of the best companions of the series.
I do wish the 2 Masters had more to do but every scene with them was gold and their last scene was terrific It's great we got to see John Simm again. I think Moffat really did his Master justice. But again I am always going or e a bit upset we didn't get more of him. Missy of course wa fantastic at the end. I kind of like the irony that she did not change but her true enemy was still herself and she never got to prove it. Whoever the next Master is will have a lot to live up to.
Nardole too really grew me. I am sorry I ever doubted him. He's a wonderful character. He was funny, witty, and charming. Although his future feels the most uncertain. I hope one day we will learn more about Nardole (maybe Big Finish).
And finally the Doctor. I know we have one episode left but Capaldi I'll miss him. I actually felt the opposite happened with him then with Matt Smith. With Matt Smith I felt his first season was the best but things went downhill from there but Capaldi seasons got stronger as they went on. Not that this season was perfect but the Capaldi/Bill/Nardole team will be hard to be beat. I really regret we only got one season with them but what a wonderful season it is.
The next Christmas special truly does look special. I am glad we will havs one more proper goodbye with 12. If anyone deserves a long drawn out goodbye it's Capaldi.
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Post by jasonward on Jul 2, 2017 13:47:02 GMT
Loved the last two episodes, they were exquisitely filmed, the direction was amazing, more of that please.
The 2 masters were masterful, and dam we needed more of them!
I was shocked by Bill conversion and parts of that made me cry. Which brings me to the one complaint I have about the story, The Pilot and the magical resolution that she brought. I don't mind that she intervened, but to learn she could undo everything that happened to Bill undermined Bills story for me, if she'd said, I can't restore you, but I can give you an alternative, I would have been OK with it, but to learn that Bill could be back at home, fully human in the next episode really grates, the story not only didn't need that, it didn't deserve it, the magical resolution was not needed and the story is made weaker because of it.
I am left very curious to know more about The Pilot though, why did she pilot the Tardis to the First Doctor? Who is she?
Anyway, great episodes/story, amongst the very best of Who, but enough of the magical resolutions.
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