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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jul 8, 2017 1:07:30 GMT
I didn't see Missy's choosing to stand with the Doctor as a redemption, just her finally deciding to put her foot on the road of redemption. She didn't get to, because her own past literally wouldn't let her. So the arc for what it's worth worked for me. It's not redemption, it's not forgiveness, it's her realising she was wrong. If she'd managed to get on that path then she had so much more to go to atone for everything, a genuine Sisyphean task if there ever was one, and she might not even have managed to stay on that path, because it would be too hard.
And narratively the next Missy/Master will be reset to the villain archetype because Holmes needs his Moriarty to be Moriarty, he already has Watsons.
It's very simple.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jul 8, 2017 2:21:46 GMT
Talking over it with a few people at work, I realised that for all his sins, for all the murder and genocide I've never been realy truly angry at The Master and his actions. Untill last week. When he did that "You see this face?" line to Capaldi after that speech, I honestly hated him. I was furious in a way I've never been when told he's wiped out a chunk of the universe. Moffat's writing, and the acting of Capaldi and Simm, made me feel something much more intense than any panto-histrionics. And all it took was a smarmy, dimissive comment. Wonderful stuff. I loved that: the camera spent so much time on Missy that you were really hoping it would have an effect on them and then you get slapped by that comment - which is beautiful because 12 did something similar in Eaters Of Light with his "do you hear that?" line.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 8, 2017 3:03:39 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 6:35:09 GMT
Yep, I agree with that. Missy chose to change and turn away from her dark side, giving up her life even, so she came good in the end. That's good enough for me. I get that I'm in the minority of viewers who weren't convinced. I don't know that much is being added at this point. Perhaps I'm not as forgiving as some, but when a character is presented as a monster, I expect a lot before contemplating forgiveness/redemption. I'd need to see something like a new Master coming in and behaving Doctory on his/her own, better yet without even knowing the Doctor was watching - genuinely being good on his or her own. But again, I understand that plenty of people disagree and loved the concept/scene. Edit: To me, it's more a tragedy of potential redemption denied. Missy never got her chance to stand with the Doctor, then to go on and continue doing good deeds on her own. But as mentioned in other posts, nobody is expecting viewers to forgive her. Nobody is trying to say her actions here make everything all right. So in a sense we're all violently agreeing with each other. Perhaps the wording was confusing. Missy hasn't been redeemed, but she has repented (which literally just means "make a u turn")
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 8, 2017 8:32:09 GMT
I guess they must have filmed it during Christmas Special filming then.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 9:04:38 GMT
I get that I'm in the minority of viewers who weren't convinced. I don't know that much is being added at this point. Perhaps I'm not as forgiving as some, but when a character is presented as a monster, I expect a lot before contemplating forgiveness/redemption. I'd need to see something like a new Master coming in and behaving Doctory on his/her own, better yet without even knowing the Doctor was watching - genuinely being good on his or her own. But again, I understand that plenty of people disagree and loved the concept/scene. Edit: To me, it's more a tragedy of potential redemption denied. Missy never got her chance to stand with the Doctor, then to go on and continue doing good deeds on her own. But as mentioned in other posts, nobody is expecting viewers to forgive her. Nobody is trying to say her actions here make everything all right. So in a sense we're all violently agreeing with each other. Perhaps the wording was confusing. Missy hasn't been redeemed, but she has repented (which literally just means "make a u turn") Yes, that was the interesting bit. Missy could really have changed... for a while. But then, it's like John Smith in Master, the wonderful, kind and loving John died. That was immutable. He had to because as much as the cosmos could not thrive without the Doctor, nor could it do without the Master. Actually, a better way of looking at it is the audio Davros. We know that he's not going to repent or even be redeemed, but it's fascinating to see the character attempt to anyway and find his own reasons why it's just not possible. For Davros, it was the pattern of history. For the Master, it was because he fundamentally believed that he was right. He had to be right and couldn't tolerate the idea that after everything they'd been through, he'd lost the millennia-old argument. It's tragic. It's two friends who have grown so far apart that they simply cannot understand one another anymore. It harks back to that conversation in Colony in Space: Both believe that each other's lifestyles are a wanton, destructive waste of existence, but for two very different reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 9:14:03 GMT
I thought those scenes might have been filmed later, mainly due to the length of Peter C's hair, but I didn't realise what a quick turnaround it was! Interesting about the budget too. They know what they're doing, these Doctor Who people
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Post by sherlock on Jul 8, 2017 9:30:16 GMT
I didn't see Missy's choosing to stand with the Doctor as a redemption, just her finally deciding to put her foot on the road of redemption. She didn't get to, because her own past literally wouldn't let her. So the arc for what it's worth worked for me. It's not redemption, it's not forgiveness, it's her realising she was wrong. If she'd managed to get on that path then she had so much more to go to atone for everything, a genuine Sisyphean task if there ever was one, and she might not even have managed to stay on that path, because it would be too hard. And narratively the next Missy/Master will be reset to the villain archetype because Holmes needs his Moriarty to be Moriarty, he already has Watsons. It's very simple. I agree. The thing with the Master is that he/she has never been willing to even consider making that first step, always too focused on themself and power to even listen to the Doctor's pleas-as shown perfectly by Simm's Master's reaction to the Doctor's final plea. But in her latter days Missy had begun to consider it, she was utterly isolated in the Vault so forced to look back on her decisions, which we see in Lie of the Land. She only has the Doctor to talk to, whose friendship she has long wanted back, even as far back as Colony in Space, and perhaps she finally begins to understand him better as a result. Then in World Enough and Time/The Doctor Falls she is physically confronted with her past attitude and she's doesn't seem entirely comfortable with it anymore. Given that time to reflect she's perhaps realises she no longer that person anymore and the Doctor's plea finally gives her the push to reject it and make that first step by standing with him. The tragedy is her past literally won't allow her to make that first step towards redemption, and equally that the Doctor will never know she made that choice, that he did win the battle for her soul in the end. Yes these are tiny steps, and absolutely do not make up for her past actions, but the Master has been self-centred practically their entire existence so these tiny steps are huge in the scheme of things. It isn't a redemption, it's the start towards one-and that opportunity is ruthlessly snatched away by the earlier Master before it can get any further.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 8, 2017 10:30:52 GMT
I thought those scenes might have been filmed later, mainly due to the length of Peter C's hair, but I didn't realise what a quick turnaround it was! Interesting about the budget too. They know what they're doing, these Doctor Who people I bet they looked like Shaun Of The Dead zombie rejects after that quick turnaround.
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Post by coffeeaddict on Jul 9, 2017 2:04:32 GMT
I finally got a chance to see the final episodes - for the most part I really liked them, however I thought the salvation of Bill by Puddle Girl was needless - either kill a character off or don't. I'm sick of this plot device, that part of episode 12 really didn't work for me and was lazy writing just like what they did with Clara.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jul 9, 2017 8:48:36 GMT
They know what they're doing, these Doctor Who people WHAT??? Hand in your Doctor Who Fandom badge this instant! How dare you insinuate that the production team have a measure of competency!
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Post by doctorkernow on Jul 9, 2017 9:49:06 GMT
Hello again.
I'm feeling very flat, now my favourite programme has disappeared for a while. Series 10 was a really entertaining ride. There were as always some moments that left the viewer a bit disappointed. There were more moments; where even Mrs Kernow who has generally been underwhelmed by everything since Blink and Season Donna; was absolutely gripped by the adventures of Dr. Twelfth, Bill and Nardole.
It seems that the year off was put to good use. I am therefore, continuing my very enjoyable journey through the audio adventures of Dr. Sixie.
I have just finished an equally enjoyable ride through the Six/Charley series except for Paper Cuts which funds permitting I will get to eventually. Excellent series. Highlights?
The Condemned: Dr. Who meets The Bill, The Doomwood Curse: Superb caper Brotherhood of the Daleks: My head hurts... Patient Zero: Fascinating twist in proceedings Blue Forgotten Planet: Sad but inevitable finale.
I really enjoyed this run of stories, next stop City of Spires...
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Post by number13 on Jul 9, 2017 10:57:15 GMT
Hello again. I'm feeling very flat, now my favourite programme has disappeared for a while. Series 10 was a really entertaining ride. There were as always some moments that left the viewer a bit disappointed. There were more moments; where even Mrs Kernow who has generally been underwhelmed by everything since Blink and Season Donna; was absolutely gripped by the adventures of Dr. Twelfth, Bill and Nardole. It seems that the year off was put to good use. I am therefore, continuing my very enjoyable journey through the audio adventures of Dr. Sixie. I have just finished an equally enjoyable ride through the Six/Charley series except for Paper Cuts which funds permitting I will get to eventually. Excellent series. Highlights? The Condemned: Dr. Who meets The Bill, The Doomwood Curse: Superb caper Brotherhood of the Daleks: My head hurts... Patient Zero: Fascinating twist in proceedings Blue Forgotten Planet: Sad but inevitable finale. I really enjoyed this run of stories, next stop City of Spires... If the Sixie / Jamie trilogy doesn't prove gripping, I'll be surprised! I hugely enjoyed hearing it last year. Three hints: (If you don't already know what's coming.) 1. Do NOT even glance at the cast/character lists before listening (this gets more important as you get deeper in.) 2. Be prepared to reassess 'City of Spires' later; it's very much a Part 1 and only makes full sense long after. 3. If you don't have it, it would be very well worth buying the Companion Chronicle 'Night's Black Agents' which is the fourth part of the trilogy and fits just after 'City of Spires'. A great story and again, pays off even more in retrospect.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jul 10, 2017 4:49:16 GMT
I deeply love this episode. The Cybermen as a inevitable ideology makes them more terrifying and streamlines their confusing continuity. No more dismissing the World Shapers as non-canon because of Spare Parts. The Cybusmen make perfect sense. Old Doctor Who novelizations saying they started on Telos? They count too. They've become a force of nature, something akin to the idea of the Singularity. That elevates them so much over just another conquering force and at last brings them out of being just "lesser Daleks," which is a trap they've fallen into all too often. Bill's end is obviously controversial, but I'm a huge fan. It's similar to Clara, but so much better. It's foreshadowed in the best possible way – not too obvious at the time, but immediately all fits into place when you think back. And the fairy tale wonder of Bill and Heather stepping out into the universe, moving beyond their human existences because Heather "lent Bill her tears"... that's everything I love about Moffat's fairy tale take on Doctor Who. The Masters' fate is so poetic. It's the story of his/her life, laid out in one scene. The Master wants to help the Doctor, to be his friend again, to stand together – but the Master holds her back, every time. He shoots herself in the back. But on the other hand... she decides to do the right thing. Without witness. Without hope. And without reward. So perhaps that's something of a redemption, even if the Doctor might never know she tried to help him. As for the last scene, I'm thrilled to see what Moffat does with it. The first Doctor meeting his future self has always been the most intriguing possible multi-Doctor story, I think. The Three Doctors was unfortunately limited by Hartnell's health and the Five Doctors doesn't do much with character development as it was too busy telling a sprawling epic (which it does so incredibly well that I don't really mind). But the youngest Doctor meeting the latest, seeing the man he will become... and the oldest Doctor looking back at himself as he was when he started out, just a few years from wanting to crack open a caveman's skull with a rock... that's some ripe material for character drama. Discussion on my blog.
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Post by sherlock on Jul 24, 2017 23:49:21 GMT
From re-watching The Pilot an inconsistency about Heather's appearance here came to mind. In The Pilot she's barely able to speak, being driven by 'her last conscious thought' with only a hint of her regaining some identity as she departs (saying 'goodbye Bill' as opposed to just repeating) but nothing more. In The Doctor Falls however she's fully communicative, so how did that change come about?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2017 23:53:22 GMT
From re-watching The Pilot an inconsistency about Heather's appearance here came to mind. In The Pilot she's barely able to speak, being driven by 'her last conscious thought' with only a hint of her regaining some identity as she departs (saying 'goodbye Bill' as opposed to just repeating) but nothing more. In The Doctor Falls however she's fully communicative, so how did that change come about? Well, she went from as you say being almost mute to being able to say "Goodbye Bill" in the time it took that one ep, so how long did she have after that in space and time? Not sure that's an inconsistency, really, just an off screen progression. I'd rather have that than expository dialogue that does nothing for the plot.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jul 25, 2017 1:20:09 GMT
From re-watching The Pilot an inconsistency about Heather's appearance here came to mind. In The Pilot she's barely able to speak, being driven by 'her last conscious thought' with only a hint of her regaining some identity as she departs (saying 'goodbye Bill' as opposed to just repeating) but nothing more. In The Doctor Falls however she's fully communicative, so how did that change come about? Well, she went from as you say being almost mute to being able to say "Goodbye Bill" in the time it took that one ep, so how long did she have after that in space and time? Not sure that's an inconsistency, really, just an off screen progression. I'd rather have that than expository dialogue that does nothing for the plot. It's also possible that now she and Bill are on the same "level," Bill can understand her. In "The Pilot," perhaps Heather was having difficulty communicating the thoughts of a five-dimensional Timeship, in the same way we might struggle to talk to a circle.
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Post by Whovitt on Jul 25, 2017 3:57:52 GMT
Well, she went from as you say being almost mute to being able to say "Goodbye Bill" in the time it took that one ep, so how long did she have after that in space and time? Not sure that's an inconsistency, really, just an off screen progression. I'd rather have that than expository dialogue that does nothing for the plot. It's also possible that now she and Bill are on the same "level," Bill can understand her. In "The Pilot," perhaps Heather was having difficulty communicating the thoughts of a five-dimensional Timeship, in the same way we might struggle to talk to a circle. That is one of the funniest things I've read in a while
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