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Post by barnabaslives on Jul 3, 2017 22:34:52 GMT
The doctors big speeches were nonsense rubbish. The ones along the line of I'm the Doctor and I try no matter what?... Besides, the audience already knows that about the Doctor's character. That's one thing we really don't need to be told. Sure, but I thought it was framed beautifully - first of all, seemingly being for Missy's benefit (and I think it nearly was) and second, apparently being the first time in his efforts to rehabilitate her that he's resorted to anything that could so easily be mistaken for tooting his own horn. For me, it came across emphatically as The Doctor much preferring to live by those sentiments than to reluctantly try and articulate them. I did also really enjoy that as an affirmation, even if one wasn't necessary, that The Doctor's drive to do good still can and does come from a passionate place, rather than just wearily and doggedly continuing to aspire to doing what's right. There's probably still room in my life for me to find that inspiring on a personal level.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 3, 2017 22:40:57 GMT
The ones along the line of I'm the Doctor and I try no matter what?... Besides, the audience already knows that about the Doctor's character. That's one thing we really don't need to be told. Sure, but I thought it was framed beautifully - first of all, seemingly being for Missy's benefit (and I think it nearly was) and second, apparently being the first time in his efforts to rehabilitate her that he's resorted to anything that could so easily be mistaken for tooting his own horn. For me, it came across emphatically as The Doctor much preferring to live by those sentiments than to reluctantly try and articulate them. I did also really enjoy that as an affirmation, even if one wasn't necessary, that The Doctor's drive to do good still can and does come from a passionate place, rather than just wearily and doggedly continuing to aspire to doing what's right. There's probably still room in my life for me to find that inspiring on a personal level. Yes. 100% agree.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2017 0:20:32 GMT
The ones along the line of I'm the Doctor and I try no matter what?... Besides, the audience already knows that about the Doctor's character. That's one thing we really don't need to be told. Sure, but I thought it was framed beautifully - first of all, seemingly being for Missy's benefit (and I think it nearly was) and second, apparently being the first time in his efforts to rehabilitate her that he's resorted to anything that could so easily be mistaken for tooting his own horn. For me, it came across emphatically as The Doctor much preferring to live by those sentiments than to reluctantly try and articulate them. I did also really enjoy that as an affirmation, even if one wasn't necessary, that The Doctor's drive to do good still can and does come from a passionate place, rather than just wearily and doggedly continuing to aspire to doing what's right. There's probably still room in my life for me to find that inspiring on a personal level. And I love how despite the Master rejecting that credo and the Doctor failing (for all intents and purposes), he still continues to fight for these people. It doesn't deter him. That's the Doctor that we always want to see, I think. The one who knows that he probably won't succeed, but keeps trying anyway. The man above Androzani who shouted as much to himself as to Stotz -- "So you see, I'm not going to let you stop me now!"
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 4, 2017 7:01:34 GMT
And I love how despite the Master rejecting that credo and the Doctor failing (for all intents and purposes), he still continues to fight for these people. It doesn't deter him. That's the Doctor that we always want to see, I think. The one who knows that he probably won't succeed, but keeps trying anyway. The man above Androzani who shouted as much to himself as to Stotz -- "So you see, I'm not going to let you stop me now!" I think that's one of the bigger problems with the episode. It's hard to reconcile the Doctor as he describes himself in this speech with the Doctor who describes himself in other speeches about himself, as a savior who will fix everyone's problem and then disappear, leaving nothing but a legend behind him. ("For you, the day the Doctor graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.") The argument could be made that the swagger is false courage to cover up his fears, but I don't think that's the case.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2017 7:35:31 GMT
I think that's one of the bigger problems with the episode. It's hard to reconcile the Doctor as he describes himself in this speech with the Doctor who describes himself in other speeches about himself, as a savior who will fix everyone's problem and then disappear, leaving nothing but a legend behind him. ("For you, the day the Doctor graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.") The argument could be made that the swagger is false courage to cover up his fears, but I don't think that's the case. Well, the Bison speech tends to be used by the Doctor for the purposes of intimidation (Susan Ivanova's "I am Death Incarnate" speech). This here I think is less about demoralising the enemy and more about teaching a friend, so it does kind of work on a broader scale. If only for the different context. Personally though, I definitely prefer this over the boasting/gloating he's prone to in other stories. The boast has never been a trait I'm particularly fond of regardless of the incarnation, so I'm really glad it was dropped here. I think we'd have probably sided with the Master if the Doctor started ranting about how great he was. Talking of Babylon 5, I think the exchange between Delenn and Sebastian may be the definitive way of doing it without having the character boast:
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Post by acousticwolf on Jul 4, 2017 9:40:45 GMT
I've been trying to put my thoughts down on this, but I don't seem to be able to say anything that others haven't. so, my random comments ... Pearl Mackie was brilliant! If she doesn't go on to being a huge star, there is no justice. I have loved Bill throughout and I was torn between wanting her to be saved and wanting her to go out blazing. It is still a bone of contention between Mrs Acousticwolf and I, but under the circumstances I think Moffat did ok with her "end". Add me to the list of wanting more Bill stories. Nardole has been the surprise of the series and I can't believe I was dreading Matt Lucas joining the team. Matt, I apologise wholeheartedly! I like the idea of Nardole potentially living out his time in (semi) peace. We are all going to die, they know it is just a matter of time (Black Hole, Cyber-conversion). Someone (further up) mentioned Simm regenerating into Gomez and then taking all the Cybermen away for Dark Water - I quite like that idea but not sure how it would fit ... I always said Missy wasn't the Master ... and was proved right . The difference between them was very well played and I am so very happy that Simm finally got to play a "proper Master" instead of Mr Crazy and Skeletor! Moffat has almost thrown everything into this one ... and I think on the whole it worked very well. I enjoyed it and look forward to watching it again soon ... For me this whole season has been about Capaldi becoming the Doctor. I wish we had had this season, last season and ... I don't want him to go! Cheers Tony
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jul 4, 2017 11:47:35 GMT
I think that's one of the bigger problems with the episode. It's hard to reconcile the Doctor as he describes himself in this speech with the Doctor who describes himself in other speeches about himself, as a savior who will fix everyone's problem and then disappear, leaving nothing but a legend behind him. ("For you, the day the Doctor graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday.") The argument could be made that the swagger is false courage to cover up his fears, but I don't think that's the case. Well, the Bison speech tends to be used by the Doctor for the purposes of intimidation (Susan Ivanova's "I am Death Incarnate" speech). This here I think is less about demoralising the enemy and more about teaching a friend, so it does kind of work on a broader scale. If only for the different context. Personally though, I definitely prefer this over the boasting/gloating he's prone to in other stories. The boast has never been a trait I'm particularly fond of regardless of the incarnation, so I'm really glad it was dropped here. I think we'd have probably sided with the Master if the Doctor started ranting about how great he was. Talking of Babylon 5, I think the exchange between Delenn and Sebastian may be the definitive way of doing it without having the character boast: This is why I'd love JMS to write an episode of Doctor Who
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 4, 2017 13:10:54 GMT
This is why I'd love JMS to write an episode of Doctor Who Ooooh, yes! I've been a fan of his since before I even knew who he was. I would watch The Real Ghostbusters when I was a kid, and I knew that the episode was going to be good if I saw his name at the beginning. Also, favorite Babylon 5 quote: "The humans, I think, knew they were doomed. But where another race would surrender to despair, the humans fought back with even greater strength. They made the Minbari fight for every inch of space. In my life, I have never seen anything like it. They would weep, they would pray, they would say goodbye to their loved ones and then throw themselves without fear or hesitation at the very face of death itself. Never surrendering. No one who saw them fighting against the inevitable could help but be moved to tears by their courage…their stubborn nobility. When they ran out of ships, they used guns. When they ran out of guns, they used knives and sticks and bare hands. They were magnificent. I only hope, that when it is my time, I may die with half as much dignity as I saw in their eyes at the end. They did this for two years. They never ran out of courage. But in the end…they ran out of time."I agree with about the boastfulness. The Doctor, in the framework of a narrative, isn't a plucky underdog. On average, he wins a lot more than he loses and braggadocio coupled with dominance tends to look an awful lot like bullying unless you're very careful.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2017 16:35:03 GMT
I know someone will have picked up on this, so forgive my possible repetition (I haven't gone through quite the whole thread). The Doctor talks about the Cybermen 'happening' anywhere there are humans - Mondas, Telos, Planet 14, Marinus. Marinus! This references a very old DWM strip that toyed with the idea that The Voord were embryonic Cybermen - and it's now official!
Edited to add - having watched this properly all the way through now ... well, what can you say? Utterly brilliant, beautifully acted and some of the best stunt work since the Havoc days! Lots of lovely echoes to the past, some of which I'll have missed, and the Cybermen at possibly their best ever (then again, this is the first time we've had three versions in the same story). Which brings me to thinking - during the scenes when the Cyber Army was stomping through the 'countryside', which was more effective? The relentless unified modern versions, the marching-as-one soldiers of the RTD era ... or the ghostly, languid, spectral original versions, visions clanking through the trees, their black eyes mournful and full of blank intent. As you may realise, I found the originals the best - which just goes to show (for me at least) that you don't need streamlined Iron-Man-like powers or sleek and static formation marching to be menacing. The originals are the best!
Other highpoints - the Masters laughing as they killed each other, the Doctor charging through the wasteland laying waste to bucket loads of Cybermen, Bill/the Cyberman weeping over the body of the Doctor in the battlefield (that provided a few tears - speaking of which:), Bill's tears, Rahcel Talalay's direction, the old Cloister and that ending!
I like that this 'difficult' version of the Doctor is so vehement he will not change. It's just a tragedy that we know all the bravado is for nothing, and he inevitably will. When he said 'I can't keep being somebody else', that was very emotive. How can that possibly feel? Constantly saying goodbye to your best friend, only to pick up the pieces and start all over again? What an incredible story. And it isn't over yet!
Excellent.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 4, 2017 18:35:37 GMT
Pearl Mackie was brilliant! If she doesn't go on to being a huge star, there is no justice. I have loved Bill throughout and I was torn between wanting her to be saved and wanting her to go out blazing. It is still a bone of contention between Mrs Acousticwolf and I, but under the circumstances I think Moffat did ok with her "end". Add me to the list of wanting more Bill stories. I hope Pearl Mackie goes on to appear in the MCU. She could play Ms Marvel as a young adult. :confused: Missy IS the Master.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2017 18:56:57 GMT
... in fact, going back over my thoughts on The Doctor Falls. The Doctor's plight at the end put me in mind a little of the end of the War Games, where the Second Doctor had tried time and again to get away from his nemesises (the Time Lords, as it turned out) and it was all futile, because they caught up with him anyway. I remember being quite sad about that. The Doctor can right all manner of wrongs, but he can't escape his own fate - and it's the same now. All this resentment Peter C's Doctor is showing towards his regeneration makes me think he isn't going to give in to death (because that is what it is, for him) gladly. Unless the First Doctor encourages him to accept it. A really weighty and tragically futile dilemma for our Doc.
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Post by acousticwolf on Jul 4, 2017 18:57:50 GMT
Pearl Mackie was brilliant! If she doesn't go on to being a huge star, there is no justice. I have loved Bill throughout and I was torn between wanting her to be saved and wanting her to go out blazing. It is still a bone of contention between Mrs Acousticwolf and I, but under the circumstances I think Moffat did ok with her "end". Add me to the list of wanting more Bill stories. I hope Pearl Mackie goes on to appear in the MCU. She could play Ms Marvel as a young adult. :confused: Missy IS the Master. I always had issues with Michelle Gomez's portrayal of the "Master" character, she wasn't "Master-ly" enough for me. Now I know why... Her incarnation was different to the normal character type. Basically it was my little joke Cheers Tony
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 1:24:03 GMT
A thought occurs... Can we talk about the Mondasian colony ship going into the black hole? Moreover, is it still going into the black hole?
There's mention of retrorockets firing, but if the time dilation effect in the gravity well is so extreme, then surely the engines are going to run out of power long before they ever reach planetfall and be snatched up by the singularity anyway? Logically, the only thing working in the colonists' favour is that the time dilatation effect is so extreme that an indeterminate number of generations will be born and die before the power runs out. They'll likely never reach their destination.
Actually, thinking about this further... Were the Cybermen created by the Doctormen for the same purpose they were originally developed by Allan on Mondas? If so, then they must have come to the same conclusion that the colonists are a drain on resources. That raises an interesting question in its own right -- are the Cybermen responsible for maintaining the engines? Is that why they haven't been totally wiped out in the meantime?
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jul 5, 2017 6:48:55 GMT
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Jul 5, 2017 6:53:40 GMT
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Jul 5, 2017 7:42:50 GMT
I hope Pearl Mackie goes on to appear in the MCU. She could play Ms Marvel as a young adult. :confused: Missy IS the Master. I always had issues with Michelle Gomez's portrayal of the "Master" character, she wasn't "Master-ly" enough for me. Now I know why... Her incarnation was different to the normal character type. Basically it was my little joke Cheers Tony "Jim Skossey" as opposed to "James Stoker"?
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jul 5, 2017 12:44:47 GMT
A thought occurs... Can we talk about the Mondasian colony ship going into the black hole? Moreover, is it still going into the black hole? There's mention of retrorockets firing, but if the time dilation effect in the gravity well is so extreme, then surely the engines are going to run out of power long before they ever reach planetfall and be snatched up by the singularity anyway? Logically, the only thing working in the colonists' favour is that the time dilatation effect is so extreme that an indeterminate number of generations will be born and die before the power runs out. They'll likely never reach their destination. Actually, thinking about this further... Were the Cybermen created by the Doctormen for the same purpose they were originally developed by Allan on Mondas? If so, then they must have come to the same conclusion that the colonists are a drain on resources. That raises an interesting question in its own right -- are the Cybermen responsible for maintaining the engines? Is that why they haven't been totally wiped out in the meantime? That's an intriguing theory actually
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Post by mrperson on Jul 5, 2017 18:08:47 GMT
A thought occurs... Can we talk about the Mondasian colony ship going into the black hole? Moreover, is it still going into the black hole? There's mention of retrorockets firing, but if the time dilation effect in the gravity well is so extreme, then surely the engines are going to run out of power long before they ever reach planetfall and be snatched up by the singularity anyway? Logically, the only thing working in the colonists' favour is that the time dilatation effect is so extreme that an indeterminate number of generations will be born and die before the power runs out. They'll likely never reach their destination. Actually, thinking about this further... Were the Cybermen created by the Doctormen for the same purpose they were originally developed by Allan on Mondas? If so, then they must have come to the same conclusion that the colonists are a drain on resources. That raises an interesting question in its own right -- are the Cybermen responsible for maintaining the engines? Is that why they haven't been totally wiped out in the meantime? I really don't think anything practical regarding the ship was thought out. The engines appeared conventional, but they had a "reverse" setting (well, I remember a line about "reversing the engines" not retro-rockets, but I could be wrong) Further, tidal forces would have shredded the ship well before it go that close. Also, it was supposedly experiencing extreme time dialation while trying to reverse away from the black hole; meaning, in other words, one end of the ship is moving at a different speed than the other end. Meaning, in turn, it would tear itself apart in its attempt to escape. (This is assuming that time dialation that extreme could occur over the distances involved in the episode. I don't know). They also seem to have ignored the fact that an incredible amount of X-rays would be flooding the ship, particularly so seeing as the thing appeared to have windows opening on every Finally, come to think of it, I'm not sure the entire premise of the episodes make sense anymore. Take an observer distant from a gravitational mass and one closer to it. For each observer, time would appear to run slower closer to the gravitational mass. The effect is obviously going to be much more extreme near a black hole. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilationen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole#Event_horizonOk. So far so good. The premise of the episode is that a repair crew went to the engines, which were farthest away from the gravitational mass and didn't come back for two days, from the perspective of the people who stayed behind (or....just the one blue guy). The Doctor shows up. Bill gets shot. Everyone's chatting away. And, oh no, the Doctor realizes the repair crew formed a civilization near the engines during all this time because 2 days passing on the bridge = X hundred years passing at the engines. Full stop. Let's actually think about the plausibility of this. From the perspective of the crew that went to "reverse" the engines, time would flow normally the whole time. They'd go, reverse the engines, and return to the top of the ship nearest the black hole. From the perspective of the crew that stayed behind (aka, where the Doctor landed), time would appear to pass slower for them than for the repair crew, that much is true. That doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that the repair crew would form a civilization. Not at all. Because time would be passing slower on the bridge relative to the repair crew, the repair crew would actually return very soon after departing. (Or at least, sooner than if a repair job was ordered while out in normal space). Very little could have happened on the bridge between their departure and their return. The only way you get this episode is if the repair crew did it on purpose. If they knew that time dialation would mean that time would be as good as frozen from their perspective (once at the engines), they could consciously decide to just stay there and start a civilization. They might just be able to produce many generations before the people on the bridge realized what happened. That way, the episode works. But that's not in the least bit logical unless they really really really hated their jobs. But again, that would only be if they decided to stay behind. If they did the job and came back to the bridge, well, they'd find everyone in just about the same position on the bridge as when they left. Blink of an eye.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 20:35:36 GMT
A thought occurs... Can we talk about the Mondasian colony ship going into the black hole? Moreover, is it still going into the black hole? There's mention of retrorockets firing, but if the time dilation effect in the gravity well is so extreme, then surely the engines are going to run out of power long before they ever reach planetfall and be snatched up by the singularity anyway? Logically, the only thing working in the colonists' favour is that the time dilatation effect is so extreme that an indeterminate number of generations will be born and die before the power runs out. They'll likely never reach their destination. Actually, thinking about this further... Were the Cybermen created by the Doctormen for the same purpose they were originally developed by Allan on Mondas? If so, then they must have come to the same conclusion that the colonists are a drain on resources. That raises an interesting question in its own right -- are the Cybermen responsible for maintaining the engines? Is that why they haven't been totally wiped out in the meantime? I really don't think anything practical regarding the ship was thought out. The engines appeared conventional, but they had a "reverse" setting (well, I remember a line about "reversing the engines" not retro-rockets, but I could be wrong) Further, tidal forces would have shredded the ship well before it go that close. Also, it was supposedly experiencing extreme time dialation while trying to reverse away from the black hole; meaning, in other words, one end of the ship is moving at a different speed than the other end. Meaning, in turn, it would tear itself apart in its attempt to escape. (This is assuming that time dialation that extreme could occur over the distances involved in the episode. I don't know). They also seem to have ignored the fact that an incredible amount of X-rays would be flooding the ship, particularly so seeing as the thing appeared to have windows opening on every Finally, come to think of it, I'm not sure the entire premise of the episodes make sense anymore. Take an observer distant from a gravitational mass and one closer to it. For each observer, time would appear to run slower closer to the gravitational mass. The effect is obviously going to be much more extreme near a black hole. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilationen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole#Event_horizonOk. So far so good. The premise of the episode is that a repair crew went to the engines, which were farthest away from the gravitational mass and didn't come back for two days, from the perspective of the people who stayed behind (or....just the one blue guy). The Doctor shows up. Bill gets shot. Everyone's chatting away. And, oh no, the Doctor realizes the repair crew formed a civilization near the engines during all this time because 2 days passing on the bridge = X hundred years passing at the engines. Full stop. Let's actually think about the plausibility of this. From the perspective of the crew that went to "reverse" the engines, time would flow normally the whole time. They'd go, reverse the engines, and return to the top of the ship nearest the black hole. From the perspective of the crew that stayed behind (aka, where the Doctor landed), time would appear to pass slower for them than for the repair crew, that much is true. That doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that the repair crew would form a civilization. Not at all. Because time would be passing slower on the bridge relative to the repair crew, the repair crew would actually return very soon after departing. (Or at least, sooner than if a repair job was ordered while out in normal space). Very little could have happened on the bridge between their departure and their return. The only way you get this episode is if the repair crew did it on purpose. If they knew that time dialation would mean that time would be as good as frozen from their perspective (once at the engines), they could consciously decide to just stay there and start a civilization. They might just be able to produce many generations before the people on the bridge realized what happened. That way, the episode works. But that's not in the least bit logical unless they really really really hated their jobs. But again, that would only be if they decided to stay behind. If they did the job and came back to the bridge, well, they'd find everyone in just about the same position on the bridge as when they left. Blink of an eye. Yeah, in short, the science was b******s. But so what, this is Doctor Who, where cows wear space helmets.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 5, 2017 20:47:29 GMT
Yeah, in short, the science was b******s. But so what, this is Doctor Who, where cows wear space helmets. Within limits. Sometimes the science is such complete bull**** that it gets in the way of the episode (ie, Kill The Moon, Forest of the Night). Anyway, the larger issue that occurred to me in making that particular post wasn't really a science problem.
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