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Post by mrperson on Jul 3, 2017 15:00:36 GMT
- Why were Missy/Master even there anyway? They did nothing that had any effect on the plot in the slightest. For plot purposes and/or so there could be a two-master episode, apparently. I had hoped/suspected that it had something to do with the Master wanting a cyber army or something, ie, get the ship stuck where it was to take advantage of time dialation, influence/push the forming society to move towards cyberdizing, then oversee the process while retaining control. Then, conquer stuff with the army. That would be a Master-like idea. Instead he's just sort of .......there. He sees the Doctor et. al. arrive on his screen thing, so he ends up having Bill converted. Fine. Masterly malice, I suppose. But why was he even there in the first place? No in-story reason I can recall. Similar questions arise regarding this colony ship. It's from Mondas, but it also only has a skeleton crew and is stuck near a black hole, not somewhere in the vicinity of Mondas as you might expect of a Mondassian colony ship waiting to pick up Mondassian passengers. There's no reason it should be all the way over near a black hole, unless someone like the Master aimed it there on purpose, but nothing of the sort actually happened in the story. It seems that both Master and ship were there simply because that is what the plot required. Ditto for the Cybermen, in fact. (I'm having a hard time swallowing the premise that a society saw full cyber conversion as necessary to move to another level on the ship, so as to escape pollution).
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Post by mrperson on Jul 3, 2017 15:07:35 GMT
Did I use quotation marks? Um... did you think I was having a go? Can't see why that reply? I was asking a genuine question. It did rather sound that way, though I've managed to misread plenty of posts here so..... No worries/apologies. I don't have the exact quote in my head. I'll probably give the episode another viewing later today, to be fair. I definitely recall repeatedly exchanging glances with my wife and each of us rolling our eyes. I described the monologue or whatever it was in disdainful tongue-in-cheek fashion because it rubbed me the wrong way. Anyway, the way his "I don't want to go" moment was presented struck me as rather different from Tennant's. My description was more a combination of what he said and what we know about regeneration. That is, when Tennant says "I don't want to go", it came across more as: I want to stay in this body, but realize I'm about to regenerate again. Oh well, boo hoo. When Capaldi said it, it seemed like it had a different bent. More along the lines of I'm just so tired of all this, don't want another body, don't want another life. However, unlike Tennant's Doctor, he's actually stopping the physical process of regeneration rather than lamenting its inevitability. And we know that regeneration happens when the Timelord body is dying.
Presumably, if Capaldi's Doctor can successfully hold off regeneration, he'll die and get his wish of no more change. Hence my comment. (And, obviously, that won't happen because they didn't cancel the show. Presumably, Bradley is there to scold his older self into shape).
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Post by mrperson on Jul 3, 2017 15:14:17 GMT
The doctors big speeches were nonsense rubbish. The ones along the line of I'm the Doctor and I try no matter what? If so, yeah, those kind of rubbed me the wrong way (I also found the action montage of blowing up cybermen with the pipes rather silly). Struck me as rather self-indulgent. It's a common fault of the last few years for the show to tell the audience things rather than show them. Besides, the audience already knows that about the Doctor's character. That's one thing we really don't need to be told. I have to wonder how well Caves of Androzani would go over if we inserted characters giving a bunch of speeches about how heroic the Doctor is before the point where he actually climbs up to get the antidote.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 3, 2017 15:20:50 GMT
Maybe I am being a thicko, but was the 12th Doctor's attitude to regeneration implying he wanted to die at last, or simply was comfortable in his body and refusing to regenerate out of arrogance? Or a bit of both? No, you're not. (See my comment, above). The conclusion seems pretty inescapable given (1) 12's actual words, (2) our knowledge that Timelords regenerate when their body is dying.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 15:28:09 GMT
Maybe I am being a thicko, but was the 12th Doctor's attitude to regeneration implying he wanted to die at last, or simply was comfortable in his body and refusing to regenerate out of arrogance? Or a bit of both? No, you're not. (See my comment, above). The conclusion seems pretty inescapable given (1) 12's actual words, (2) our knowledge that Timelords regenerate when their body is dying. Bit you're missing the fact that the new series has clearly established two stages to regeneration. We've seen it three times now. First there is physical healing then, sometimes immediately, sometimes after a delay, there is a change in appearance. The Doctor has already been healed by his regeneration, he's only trying to keep his current form. It's a defiant stance, not a suicidal one.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 3, 2017 15:37:32 GMT
No, you're not. (See my comment, above). The conclusion seems pretty inescapable given (1) 12's actual words, (2) our knowledge that Timelords regenerate when their body is dying. Bit you're missing the fact that the new series has clearly established two stages to regeneration. We've seen it three times now. First there is physical healing then, sometimes immediately, sometimes after a delay, there is a change in appearance. The Doctor has already been healed by his regeneration, he's only trying to keep his current form. It's a defiant stance, not a suicidal one. At the time, his intonation made it like a sound extremely world-weary declaration to me. I suppose the dialogue doesn't seem the same on paper: <"Sontarans! Perverting the course of human history. I don't want to go! When the Doctor When the Doctor was me! When the Doctor was me. It's starting, I'm regenerating. Where have you taken me? If you're trying to make a point, I'm not listening. I don't want to change again.mNever again! I can't keep on being somebody else! Wherever it is, I'm staying! No! I will not change. I will not change."> <Bradley enters> Which means that even if it really was just another "I don't want to go", it was still another I don't want to go. I didn't like it when 10 did it either.
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Post by jasonward on Jul 3, 2017 15:44:02 GMT
Computerised TARDIS? Now that I definitely don't remember. You don't remember the Magical Space Girl from The Pilot who is now blended with a machine that can apparently go anywhere for as long as she likes, with saved-Bill, and who announced that she can rebuild Bill's body when they want? Watch the end again. Yet another companion is killed, then resurrected in such a manner that she actually stands in a better overall position. Except unlike Clara, Bill doesn't even have to learn how to pilot an alien craft. She can just exist in/with Magical Space Girl for as long as they please, then get her body rebuilt when she's done. I definitely didn't imagine it. It's in the wiki: "The Doctor lies still. Bill kneels beside him, and then finds herself outside of her Cyberman body in her human form. Heather ("The Pilot") appears, having found Bill through her tears and saved her. They take the Doctor to his TARDIS, where Heather invites Bill to explore the universe with her. She sheds tears for the Doctor before leaving with Heather." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doctor_FallsObviously, I don't like the ending one bit. Others obviously did. As far as I could tell, it was THE Tardis and The Pilot was "merely" piloting it, and then left with Bill, leaving The Doctor in his Tardis. I don't remember any blending.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 3, 2017 16:22:44 GMT
You don't remember the Magical Space Girl from The Pilot who is now blended with a machine that can apparently go anywhere for as long as she likes, with saved-Bill, and who announced that she can rebuild Bill's body when they want? Watch the end again. Yet another companion is killed, then resurrected in such a manner that she actually stands in a better overall position. Except unlike Clara, Bill doesn't even have to learn how to pilot an alien craft. She can just exist in/with Magical Space Girl for as long as they please, then get her body rebuilt when she's done. I definitely didn't imagine it. It's in the wiki: "The Doctor lies still. Bill kneels beside him, and then finds herself outside of her Cyberman body in her human form. Heather ("The Pilot") appears, having found Bill through her tears and saved her. They take the Doctor to his TARDIS, where Heather invites Bill to explore the universe with her. She sheds tears for the Doctor before leaving with Heather." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Doctor_FallsObviously, I don't like the ending one bit. Others obviously did. As far as I could tell, it was THE Tardis and The Pilot was "merely" piloting it, and then left with Bill, leaving The Doctor in his Tardis. I don't remember any blending. Not blended with the TARDIS. I meant "blended" to refer to the melding of Heather and the crashed ship, since "it" has all the powers of whatever really advanced space craft it was but seems to have Heather's independent consciousness. It's that blended Heather-Ship entity I am derisively now referring to as "Magical Space Girl" Remember back in The Pilot, the Heather-Ship entity is able to follow Bill through time and space. They go across the world, they go to another location, they go millions of years in the future, they go to a Dalek/Movellan conflict. Even if Heather-Ship isn't a TARDIS, it might as well be one, for all the audience knows. That's part of why I'm expressing derision. Heather-Ship was able to further absorb Bill. Now they can go anywhere/anywhen, if events of The Pilot are any indication. Further, Heather-Ship says this: "I can make you human again. It's all just atoms, you can rearrange them any way you like. I can put you back home, you can make chips, and live your life, or you can come with me. It's up to you, Bill. But before you make up your mind let me show you around.", and suggests she can bring her back in time for tea. So now Bill can spend however much time blended with Heather-Ship, traveling anywhere a TARDIS can apparently, then Heather-Ship can rebuild her body for her and drop her off right after she left, as if nothing had happened. Death is played for a gut-shot in one episode, then gets undone and converted into an actual bonus in another episode. Again. I think the show desperately needs to do one of two things (1) stop killing companions for a gut-shot in one episode then resurrecting them in another, or (2) actually kill a companion and then don't do it again. ("Computerized TARDIS" was a pretty incoherent expression for me to use, so let's just forget I said it).
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Post by aemiliapaula on Jul 3, 2017 16:31:32 GMT
To me when the Doctor says "I don't want to go" and "when the Doctor was me" he's remembering/reliving his previous regenerations, or maybe getting a little mixed up, like when a new doctor quotes/acts like previous ones e.g. Four talking about dinosaurs, or Five acting like 1, 2, 3. When Bill said she wouldn't want to go on if she couldn't be herself,it also made me think of the Doctor knowing he would change (not as bad a being a Cyberman though). I can't blame him for at least partially wanting to stay him.
12 is now my favorite modern Doctor and when he said I don't want to go I shouted at the TV I don't want you to go either! Each season was better than the last.
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 3, 2017 16:45:14 GMT
The Cybermen were a relentless threat throughout the episode but were almost like cannon fodder. They were blown up left right and centre. Cyberbodies were flying all over the place. All it needed was the Raston Warrior robot to join in. You rang?
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Post by fitzoliverj on Jul 3, 2017 17:26:43 GMT
Similar questions arise regarding this colony ship. It's from Mondas, but it also only has a skeleton crew and is stuck near a black hole, not somewhere in the vicinity of Mondas as you might expect of a Mondassian colony ship waiting to pick up Mondassian passengers. I suspect Missy made a mistake. It wasn't *from* Mondas but, being a ship, had to be registered somewhere and was therefore registered to Mondas. Mondas had commissioned it from interstellar shipyards and had sent some representatives to sign off on the deal. They were to return as part of the skeleton crew taking the ship to Mondas on its shakedown cruise; on arrival it would be used to evacuate the population to a new homeworld, one that wasn't spinning off into space. Of course, it never got there, and they had to go down the old' Cybernise route instead to preserve their people in the face of the environmental problems the planet was suffering. At least, that's what I reckon.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 3, 2017 18:12:02 GMT
To me when the Doctor says "I don't want to go" and "when the Doctor was me" he's remembering/reliving his previous regenerations, or maybe getting a little mixed up, like when a new doctor quotes/acts like previous ones e.g. Four talking about dinosaurs, or Five acting like 1, 2, 3. When Bill said she wouldn't want to go on if she couldn't be herself,it also made me think of the Doctor knowing he would change (not as bad a being a Cyberman though). I can't blame him for at least partially wanting to stay him. 12 is now my favorite modern Doctor and when he said I don't want to go I shouted at the TV I don't want you to go either! Each season was better than the last. Well, I don't want him to leave the role either..... It felt really out of character for the Doctor, whether 10 or 12, to mope about how he's about to regenerate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 18:22:50 GMT
Bit you're missing the fact that the new series has clearly established two stages to regeneration. We've seen it three times now. First there is physical healing then, sometimes immediately, sometimes after a delay, there is a change in appearance. The Doctor has already been healed by his regeneration, he's only trying to keep his current form. It's a defiant stance, not a suicidal one. At the time, his intonation made it like a sound extremely world-weary declaration to me. I suppose the dialogue doesn't seem the same on paper: <"Sontarans! Perverting the course of human history. I don't want to go! When the Doctor When the Doctor was me! When the Doctor was me. It's starting, I'm regenerating. Where have you taken me? If you're trying to make a point, I'm not listening. I don't want to change again.mNever again! I can't keep on being somebody else! Wherever it is, I'm staying! No! I will not change. I will not change."> <Bradley enters> Which means that even if it really was just another "I don't want to go", it was still another I don't want to go. I didn't like it when 10 did it either. Strange how two people can read the scene so differently. I've watched it twice and each time I've heard it as a "raging against the dying of the night"
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Post by mrperson on Jul 3, 2017 18:33:44 GMT
Similar questions arise regarding this colony ship. It's from Mondas, but it also only has a skeleton crew and is stuck near a black hole, not somewhere in the vicinity of Mondas as you might expect of a Mondassian colony ship waiting to pick up Mondassian passengers. I suspect Missy made a mistake. It wasn't *from* Mondas but, being a ship, had to be registered somewhere and was therefore registered to Mondas. Mondas had commissioned it from interstellar shipyards and had sent some representatives to sign off on the deal. They were to return as part of the skeleton crew taking the ship to Mondas on its shakedown cruise; on arrival it would be used to evacuate the population to a new homeworld, one that wasn't spinning off into space. Of course, it never got there, and they had to go down the old' Cybernise route instead to preserve their people in the face of the environmental problems the planet was suffering. At least, that's what I reckon. It's not a huge deal to me, but I generally don't like having to make things up in my head to patch over a sticking point like that. (Other things, I simply have to ignore, such as the fact that the ship was still in one piece). Anyway, they had to be the most incompetent crew on Earth to nearly run into a black hole with an accretion disk going. And who planned their test-flight path that way? It's not exactly a dare-devil sight-seeing trip. It's aimed at saving a civilization. Why go anywhere near uncharted space (assuming, again, that they were not quite literally asleep at the wheel)?
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Post by mrperson on Jul 3, 2017 18:34:24 GMT
At the time, his intonation made it like a sound extremely world-weary declaration to me. I suppose the dialogue doesn't seem the same on paper: <"Sontarans! Perverting the course of human history. I don't want to go! When the Doctor When the Doctor was me! When the Doctor was me. It's starting, I'm regenerating. Where have you taken me? If you're trying to make a point, I'm not listening. I don't want to change again.mNever again! I can't keep on being somebody else! Wherever it is, I'm staying! No! I will not change. I will not change."> <Bradley enters> Which means that even if it really was just another "I don't want to go", it was still another I don't want to go. I didn't like it when 10 did it either. Strange how two people can read the scene so differently. I've watched it twice and each time I've heard it as a "raging against the dying of the night" Well, I will be giving it another listen. Maybe it won't sound the same the second time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 18:58:41 GMT
Well not in the sense of it being his last story, but in the sense of making me wish he weren't leaving, it was for me. With both though there is an element of "would it have been as good without the fact that it was the end of a Doctor (bar the shouting)"
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 3, 2017 19:03:46 GMT
I'm largely inclined to agree with mrperson on this one. It was okay. Figure a six out of ten, mostly because I thought the ending worked. Talalay's direction was brilliant once again. The pan into the dance atop the hospital reminded me of an intro to a Fallout game. That whole sequence was pretty good and I got a laugh from "The Doctor is dead. He told me he's always hated you." Not sure what the point of hanging the Cybermen as scarecrows is? At least drive a metal spike through their heads or something, so you avoid them coming back to life. Or better yet, don't hang them as scarecrows and set the bodies on fire. I didn't like Bill-doesn't-know-she's-a-Cyberman thing at first. I thought it was far too obvious and took too long to get to the reveal. However, it won me over over the course of the episode and I do think it was a well-executed technique that paid off. However, it was distracting that when the camera showed her as Bill, those addressing her were looking at Bill's face and when it showed her as a Cyberman, they were looking at the Cyberman's face, easily a head higher. The Doctor's speech. Yikes. I used to think that the most annoying thing in the world was having the supporting cast blather endlessly about the Doctor's virtue. I was wrong. Making the Doctor do the blathering about how great he is is much worse. What, does he want a medal? How long has he known the Master? The Master has allied with him before, but it's always been out of his own self-interest. He should know that this isn't going to be a persuasive argument. Use the tool that suits the job. Doesn't the Master hypnotize people anymore? I mean, that was kind of his thing, wasn't it? (The Delgado Master, obviously. The Ainley Master's thing was being thwarted by a flight attendant and a boy in rubber pajamas and then appearing to die at the end of every episode.) I saw Rachel Talalay was credited as the director, but all those explosions made me think they had Michael Bay heading up the second unit. I'm not sure what the time differential was and how much time had elapsed at the lower levels, but I'm guessing a year or more. This is the best plan they could come up with? Send up a couple dozen Cybermen and arrange them like tenpins? Not that the Doctor's plan was any better. His opening salvo is having a child throw a grenade that looks like an apple at a bunch of killer cyborgs? I don't want to get all Helen Lovejoy here, but, "Won't someone please think of the children?" That just seems horribly irresponsible. Other people have already commented about the pointlessness of the two Masters in the story, and I mentioned something similar last week. They just don't mesh and the two stories never intersect and add up to something bigger. That said, at least Missy died. I think the double backstabbing feels right for the Master. The only thing that bothered me about was how the Simm-Master submitted meekly to his fate. What possible motivation does he have for going down to his TARDIS and becoming the person he hates most in the world? Is there any reason not to commit suicide with whatever sonic lipstick thing he used to kill Missy? It'll create a paradox, sure, but what does he care? I could see him doing that as a way to flip off the universe before he dies. (And while there hints that Missy does not directly follow him, he certainly seems to believe that she does.) I predicted the Redemption = Death deal, but I don't think I'm alone in that. Blech. Thirteen lifetimes of evil and then absolution with a simple symbolic gesture. No sir, I don't like it. I'd like to think that the smartest man in the universe could come up with a plan that didn't involve quite so much flouncing around the forest. Also, for as much as the Doctor rails against guns, the sonic screwdriver seemed functionally identical to one near the end. Despite all this, I did more or less like the episode. Simm was great every time he said anything. I love his little round face! And Bill stole the show once again. I'm going to miss Pearl Mackey. She has been consistently excellent and with every appearance, she has raised my expectation and then surpassed those newly raised expectations. She's so, so good. I did like the ending. Maybe I'm getting sentimental in my old, but I didn't want Bill to go and I was willing to latch on to any excuse to believe. I thought that they were setting up a return back in The Pilot and I liked how they laid the groundwork but didn't beat me over the head with the foreshadowing. The suppressed regeneration thing has gone on a bit too long, but we should see a resolution to that this Chrismas in Grumpy Old Men: TARDIS edition.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 3, 2017 19:12:34 GMT
Well not in the sense of it being his last story, but in the sense of making me wish he weren't leaving, it was for me. With both though there is an element of "would it have been as good without the fact that it was the end of a Doctor (bar the shouting)" I think it would. The Multi-Master stuff is fantastic, and who'd have thought the Tenth Planet Cybermen would work in HD?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 3, 2017 19:29:50 GMT
Some thoughts: - Some really great, high tension writing and directing in this (two part) story. - I really like the way the Cybermen are handled here. It felt like a great melding of the two sides of them - the overwhelming army of robots mixed with body horror. - I love Nardole's send off. He'd been a delight this season. Completely unexpected, too. I had no idea what to think when it was announced he was returning and I love that he's not just been comic relief. - Capaldi will be greatly missed and he's really risen to the challenge of portraying The Doctor with his back against the wall. - As much as I love The Master, I find that I'm hoping this will be the character's finale. I know it won't be, but as an ending for the character it feels perfect to me. - The only thing in the episode that didn't work for me was Bill's exit. It shares all of the broad brush strokes of the previous companion's exit from last season and I found myself disappointed at how repetitive it felt. - All in all, a really good season finale that almost completely worked for me save the one exception. I'm the opposite. I loved Bill's exit but Nardole's ending to me felt as throwaway and tacked on as the classic series companion departures.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jul 3, 2017 20:25:43 GMT
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