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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 20:58:36 GMT
Yeah, in short, the science was b******s. But so what, this is Doctor Who, where cows wear space helmets. Sometimes the science is such complete bull**** that it gets in the way of the episode (ie, Kill The Moon, Forest of the Night). Some people might say that the science of a man that can change his body travelling through time and space in a wooden blue Police box, that is bigger on the inside, to be a load of bull***t too. It hasn't stopped millions of people watching it for over fifty years though has it? I think if you can get your head around the science of that proposition, everything else is a breeze... including Cows with space helmets!
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Post by mrperson on Jul 5, 2017 22:46:04 GMT
Sometimes the science is such complete bull**** that it gets in the way of the episode (ie, Kill The Moon, Forest of the Night). Some people might say that the science of a man that can change his body travelling through time and space in a wooden blue Police box, that is bigger on the inside, to be a load of bull***t too. It hasn't stopped millions of people watching it for over fifty years though has it? I think if you can get your head around the science of that proposition, everything else is a breeze... including Cows with space helmets! There is a very obvious objection: the fundamental premise of the show is based on the idea that there is a greater physics that encompasses without entirely invalidating ours, which the Timelords discovered before building their TARDISes, but my posts indicate that I am quite clearly not talking about that. What I take issue with is instances where physics known to us to be true are (1) treated as true, (2) then contradicted without explanation from the show. Maybe some viewers are willing to swallow any bit of absurdity thrown at them, but not all - not by a long shot. If the show is going to tell me that the moon is actually an egg, which gains mass magically thereby causing tidal changes on Earth, which then forms into a creature smaller than the egg, which creature then immediately lays an egg bigger than it is, and then in fact flaps its wings to fly off - IN SPACE - then no, I am not going to content myself with the fact that the Doctor has a TARDIS. The problem is that something like that is not just a bit of silly fluff about "reversing the polarity of the neutron flow" or somesuch. They actually tried to use known physics to explain an issue that contradicts known physics, without so much as an attempted explanation. No thanks. There is a big difference between a sci-fi show relying on a premise that there is some greater physics we know about, and a sci-fi show acting like known physics is correct in a particular way and then completely misrepresenting that specific bit of known physics. If I want completely rules-free action, I'll turn on one of the many superhero shows about magical flying spacemen that don't bother to talk about science at all....
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Post by ollychops on Jul 5, 2017 23:42:32 GMT
See, I've accepted that Who has ridiculous science at times (I mean, this is a show about an alien who can change his face that travels through time and space in a police box), and I don't mind as long as the episodes are decent. Like Kill the Moon, the whole moon-egg thing is stupid, but I love the character stuff in the episode which makes it for me, so I can overlook the BS science. It's episodes like In the Forest of the Night when the plot isn't even interesting enough to save the episode from the BS science.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 1:24:25 GMT
A thought occurs... Can we talk about the Mondasian colony ship going into the black hole? Moreover, is it still going into the black hole? There's mention of retrorockets firing, but if the time dilation effect in the gravity well is so extreme, then surely the engines are going to run out of power long before they ever reach planetfall and be snatched up by the singularity anyway? Logically, the only thing working in the colonists' favour is that the time dilatation effect is so extreme that an indeterminate number of generations will be born and die before the power runs out. They'll likely never reach their destination. Actually, thinking about this further... Were the Cybermen created by the Doctormen for the same purpose they were originally developed by Allan on Mondas? If so, then they must have come to the same conclusion that the colonists are a drain on resources. That raises an interesting question in its own right -- are the Cybermen responsible for maintaining the engines? Is that why they haven't been totally wiped out in the meantime? I really don't think anything practical regarding the ship was thought out. The engines appeared conventional, but they had a "reverse" setting (well, I remember a line about "reversing the engines" not retro-rockets, but I could be wrong) Further, tidal forces would have shredded the ship well before it go that close. Also, it was supposedly experiencing extreme time dialation while trying to reverse away from the black hole; meaning, in other words, one end of the ship is moving at a different speed than the other end. Meaning, in turn, it would tear itself apart in its attempt to escape. (This is assuming that time dialation that extreme could occur over the distances involved in the episode. I don't know). They also seem to have ignored the fact that an incredible amount of X-rays would be flooding the ship, particularly so seeing as the thing appeared to have windows opening on every Finally, come to think of it, I'm not sure the entire premise of the episodes make sense anymore. Take an observer distant from a gravitational mass and one closer to it. For each observer, time would appear to run slower closer to the gravitational mass. The effect is obviously going to be much more extreme near a black hole. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_time_dilationen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole#Event_horizonOk. So far so good. The premise of the episode is that a repair crew went to the engines, which were farthest away from the gravitational mass and didn't come back for two days, from the perspective of the people who stayed behind (or....just the one blue guy). The Doctor shows up. Bill gets shot. Everyone's chatting away. And, oh no, the Doctor realizes the repair crew formed a civilization near the engines during all this time because 2 days passing on the bridge = X hundred years passing at the engines. Full stop. Let's actually think about the plausibility of this. From the perspective of the crew that went to "reverse" the engines, time would flow normally the whole time. They'd go, reverse the engines, and return to the top of the ship nearest the black hole. From the perspective of the crew that stayed behind (aka, where the Doctor landed), time would appear to pass slower for them than for the repair crew, that much is true. That doesn't logically lead to the conclusion that the repair crew would form a civilization. Not at all. Because time would be passing slower on the bridge relative to the repair crew, the repair crew would actually return very soon after departing. (Or at least, sooner than if a repair job was ordered while out in normal space). Very little could have happened on the bridge between their departure and their return. The only way you get this episode is if the repair crew did it on purpose. If they knew that time dialation would mean that time would be as good as frozen from their perspective (once at the engines), they could consciously decide to just stay there and start a civilization. They might just be able to produce many generations before the people on the bridge realized what happened. That way, the episode works. But that's not in the least bit logical unless they really really really hated their jobs. But again, that would only be if they decided to stay behind. If they did the job and came back to the bridge, well, they'd find everyone in just about the same position on the bridge as when they left. Blink of an eye. So logically, the repair crews must have discovered that it was unsalvageable. The mission is doomed and the colonial crewmen are fully aware of it, hence their decision to pack it in and turn it into a generation ship. The reverse engines (you're right, no mention of retrorockets) are only there to prolong their civilisation until the crack of doom. Perhaps the X-ray bombardment was the original reason for the Cybermen?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 5:49:33 GMT
See, I've accepted that Who has ridiculous science at times (I mean, this is a show about an alien who can change his face that travels through time and space in a police box), and I don't mind as long as the episodes are decent. Like Kill the Moon, the whole moon-egg thing is stupid, but I love the character stuff in the episode which makes it for me, so I can overlook the BS science. It's episodes like In the Forest of the Night when the plot isn't even interesting enough to save the episode from the BS science. I'm with you. These last two episodes allowed me to gloss over the rubbish science. Garden and Moon didn't but I appreciate it's a spectrum and everyone's on a different place along it.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Jul 6, 2017 8:57:26 GMT
See, I've accepted that Who has ridiculous science at times (I mean, this is a show about an alien who can change his face that travels through time and space in a police box), and I don't mind as long as the episodes are decent. Like Kill the Moon, the whole moon-egg thing is stupid, but I love the character stuff in the episode which makes it for me, so I can overlook the BS science. It's episodes like In the Forest of the Night when the plot isn't even interesting enough to save the episode from the BS science. I'm with you. These last two episodes allowed me to gloss over the rubbish science. Garden and Moon didn't but I appreciate it's a spectrum and everyone's on a different place along it. Personally I don't watch the show for science. Doctor Who was only supposed to be educational when Sydney Newman was in charge.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 13:07:34 GMT
I'm with you. These last two episodes allowed me to gloss over the rubbish science. Garden and Moon didn't but I appreciate it's a spectrum and everyone's on a different place along it. Personally I don't watch the show for science. For once, I am in agreement with you!
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 6, 2017 13:48:35 GMT
So logically, the repair crews must have discovered that it was unsalvageable. The mission is doomed and the colonial crewmen are fully aware of it, hence their decision to pack it in and turn it into a generation ship. The reverse engines (you're right, no mention of retrorockets) are only there to prolong their civilisation until the crack of doom. Perhaps the X-ray bombardment was the original reason for the Cybermen? I don’t know what the culture is like where you work, but if my boss gave me an assignment and I found I couldn’t complete it, I think he’d appreciate it if I took the elevators back up and checked in with him before I dashed off and started a whole new civilization in the bowels of the ship Those explanations you offer are plausible, but they’re unlikely and the narrative is treating them as inevitable consequence of the circumstances. Of course they’re going to found a new civilization! It’s the only reasonable thing to do! And I’m not saying that there are situations where it wouldn’t make sense to do this, only that it seems like an extreme course of action based on the information we have. I agree with mrperson . The TARDIS and Time Lord technology works in the narrative because it falls into the "so sufficiently advanced it might as well be magic” category. There is no value in explaining how it works. It’s a MST3K “Don’t think too much about it. The specifics of how it works aren’t important to the story we’re trying to tell" type deal. The black hole time differential and the moon as an egg are categorically different I think. These things fail because they’re A.) Central to the plot in the way the mechanism of the TARDIS isn’t (it’s less true than it used to be in previous eras, but the TARDIS is still mostly a way to get from one adventure to the next and) B.) inconsistent with our current understanding of science and the explanations given on the show only serve to give rise to more serious questions. It’s like telling someone that you have a summer cottage on the surface of the Sun and you like to walk there for summer holidays. If the episode hinges on some element of science, they need to either get the science right or they need to de-emphasize it. “But Doctor, wouldn’t X,Y and Z happen if that’s the case?” “Precisely, Zoe! It’s interference from the McGuffin drive to makes this possible!” or “Yes, this shouldn’t be happening! We’ll have to investigate further to determine why! ”
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 13:58:24 GMT
So logically, the repair crews must have discovered that it was unsalvageable. The mission is doomed and the colonial crewmen are fully aware of it, hence their decision to pack it in and turn it into a generation ship. The reverse engines (you're right, no mention of retrorockets) are only there to prolong their civilisation until the crack of doom. Perhaps the X-ray bombardment was the original reason for the Cybermen? I don’t know what the culture is like where you work, but if my boss gave me an assignment and I found I couldn’t complete it, I think he’d appreciate it if I took the elevators back up and checked in with him before I dashed off and started a whole new civilization in the bowels of the ship Well, naturally, otherwise there would still be a bridge crew. I reckon that they reported back up to the ship's command staff and an executive decision was made. Assuming of course that it wasn't intended as a generation ship to begin with. Oh. Oh, wait, hang on... What happened to the colonists that it was supposed to pick up? Where are they right now while the crew are playing happy families? Those explanations you offer are plausible, but they’re unlikely and the narrative is treating them as inevitable consequence of the circumstances. Of course they’re going to found a new civilization! It’s the only reasonable thing to do! And I’m not saying that there are situations where it wouldn’t make sense to do this, only that it seems like an extreme course of action based on the information we have. I agree with mrperson . The TARDIS and Time Lord technology works in the narrative because it falls into the "so sufficiently advanced it might as well be magic” category. There is no value in explaining how it works. It’s a MST3K “Don’t think too much about it. The specifics of how it works aren’t important to the story we’re trying to tell" type deal. The black hole time differential and the moon as an egg are categorically different I think. These things fail because they’re A.) Central to the plot in the way the mechanism of the TARDIS isn’t (it’s less true than it used to be in previous eras, but the TARDIS is still mostly a way to get from one adventure to the next and) B.) inconsistent with our current understanding of science and the explanations given on the show only serve to give rise to more serious questions. It’s like telling someone that you have a summer cottage on the surface of the Sun and you like to walk there for summer holidays. If the episode hinges on some element of science, they need to either get the science right or they need to de-emphasize it. “But Doctor, wouldn’t X,Y and Z happen if that’s the case?” “Precisely, Zoe! It’s interference from the McGuffin drive to makes this possible!” or “Yes, this shouldn’t be happening! We’ll have to investigate further to determine why! ” Yeah, as always, it's a lack of information which hurts the concept. There are workarounds, but it should really be in the script to begin with. Moffat stories seem to suffer from this quite a bit nowadays, there's no plot, per se. Just character interactions. You've got to wonder why modern Doctor Who doesn't have a scientific advisor on-board to check this sort of stuff...
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Post by theotherjosh on Jul 6, 2017 14:14:48 GMT
Yeah, as always, it's a lack of information which hurts the concept. There are workarounds, but it should really be in the script to begin with. Moffat stories seem to suffer from this quite a bit nowadays, there's no plot, per se. Just character interactions. I think I agree. These quibbles fall into the "unexplained" rather than "inexplicable" category. If the audience works hard enough, we can find a rationalization for almost anything that happens in a Doctor Who story. But it shouldn't be the work of the audience at home to make sense of a story. As a rule, it should make sense on its own without active effort from the viewer. You've got to wonder why modern Doctor Who doesn't have a scientific advisor on-board to check this sort of stuff... My understanding is that they used to have one, but she was conscripted by UNIT a couple years ago.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 14:32:56 GMT
Yeah, as always, it's a lack of information which hurts the concept. There are workarounds, but it should really be in the script to begin with. Moffat stories seem to suffer from this quite a bit nowadays, there's no plot, per se. Just character interactions. I think I agree. These quibbles fall into the "unexplained" rather than "inexplicable" category. If the audience works hard enough, we can find a rationalization for almost anything that happens in a Doctor Who story. But it shouldn't be the work of the audience at home to make sense of a story. As a rule, it should make sense on its own without active effort from the viewer. You've got to wonder why modern Doctor Who doesn't have a scientific advisor on-board to check this sort of stuff... My understanding is that they used to have one, but she was conscripted by UNIT a couple years ago. Mmm, nuance is fine. That's not something you have to spell out to a viewer, but there should be an explanation for basic premises. Even if the explanation is couched in the fiction part of science fiction. Why is Omega in a black hole? Temporal experiments conducted by the Time Lords trapped him there. Why is Scaroth in differing time zones throughout Earth's history? When the drive system to his ship malfunctioned it splintered him across space-time in the resulting explosion.
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Post by mrperson on Jul 6, 2017 20:01:51 GMT
Well, I tried to give it another chance. Same feeling. On the whole positive, but the faults remain. Still don't like the overdone melodrama/sentimentalism during the last 1/3 or 1/4.
They even address the fundamental absurdity I pointed out earlier. The Doctor explains they can’t escape because the further they go to the top up a lift, the faster time will be passing for the cybermen relative to them. Exactly. That’s why the repair crew would have arrived back on the bridge faster than if this had been a repair job in normal space. (Unless, as someone noted, we choose to make up a bunch of stuff not in the script about how actually, the engines were broken so the repair crew decided to live out their life down there, while inexplicably not alerting the bridge. One could also suppose that a magical space-time whatsit was actually off-screen throughout Kill The Moon, making sure that normal physics could be circumvented, and that setting magical spacetime whatsits are just another thing that the moon-creatures create when they pick a breeding spot.)
That just doesn't work for me, and frankly gives license to the show to not even try to be coherent. One of the things that bugs me most about it is that it is completely unnecessary to have such faults, as BF demonstrates time and time again. Anyway, I think I'll leave that particular horse alone for the moment (well, until the next episode where a similar fault arises).
As for my sense that the desire not to regenerate was almost suicidal sounding rather than 10 "I don't want to go" sounding, there was the bit where he's about to blow everything up. He starts regenerating after being shot (49:56) and says "Doctor, Doctor. Let it go. Time enough.” Stops regenerating, inhales, blows up all the gas lines. “Pity, no stars. I hoped there be stars." It sounded very much like he's saying "nah, don't regenerate because I'm simply done with this". (After all, remember how 10 lost a hand while still in the 24h after regenerating and it just plain grew back. How River could take a hail of bullets then blow up Nazis with regeneration juice? No reason to think he wouldn't survive the explosion if he had actually regenerated as he set it off. Hence the way I took things, which is probably foolish because there is little to no effort to keep so much as one season of reboot consistent with another, let alone the classic series.)
Then there's all the later stuff I already addressed re: repeating insistence that he can't keep changing, doesn't want to regenerate, and "wherever it is, I'll stay", whatever that means. (What's his plan anyway, if he isn't really as world-weary as he sounded to me? Spend the rest of his life on an ice planet, fighting regeneration every 50 seconds. Until what? He passes out from cold exposure and regenerates anyway?)
I know that's not where the show is going, seeing as it isn't being canceled. But it still had that tone for me. Ah well, no doubt he'll get a pep talk from 1 on Christmas....
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Post by newt5996 on Jul 6, 2017 20:18:32 GMT
Well, I tried to give it another chance. Same feeling. On the whole positive, but the faults remain. Still don't like the overdone melodrama/sentimentalism during the last 1/3 or 1/4. They even address the fundamental absurdity I pointed out earlier. The Doctor explains they can’t escape because the further they go to the top up a lift, the faster time will be passing for the cybermen relative to them. Exactly. That’s why the repair crew would have arrived back on the bridge faster than if this had been a repair job in normal space. (Unless, as someone noted, we choose to make up a bunch of stuff not in the script about how actually, the engines were broken so the repair crew decided to live out their life down there, while inexplicably not alerting the bridge. One could also suppose that a magical space-time whatsit was actually off-screen throughout Kill The Moon, making sure that normal physics could be circumvented, and that setting magical spacetime whatsits are just another thing that the moon-creatures create when they pick a breeding spot.) That just doesn't work for me, and frankly gives license to the show to not even try to be coherent. One of the things that bugs me most about it is that it is completely unnecessary to have such faults, as BF demonstrates time and time again. Anyway, I think I'll leave that particular horse alone for the moment (well, until the next episode where a similar fault arises). As for my sense that the desire not to regenerate was almost suicidal sounding rather than 10 "I don't want to go" sounding, there was the bit where he's about to blow everything up. He starts regenerating after being shot (49:56) and says "Doctor, Doctor. Let it go. Time enough.” Stops regenerating, inhales, blows up all the gas lines. “Pity, no stars. I hoped there be stars." It sounded very much like he's saying "nah, don't regenerate because I'm simply done with this". (After all, remember how 10 lost a hand while still in the 24h after regenerating and it just plain grew back. How River could take a hail of bullets then blow up Nazis with regeneration juice? No reason to think he wouldn't survive the explosion if he had actually regenerated as he set it off. Hence the way I took things, which is probably foolish because there is little to no effort to keep so much as one season of reboot consistent with another, let alone the classic series.) Then there's all the later stuff I already addressed re: repeating insistence that he can't keep changing, doesn't want to regenerate, and "wherever it is, I'll stay", whatever that means. (What's his plan anyway, if he isn't really as world-weary as he sounded to me? Spend the rest of his life on an ice planet, fighting regeneration every 50 seconds. Until what? He passes out from cold exposure and regenerates anyway?) I know that's not where the show is going, seeing as it isn't being canceled. But it still had that tone for me. Ah well, no doubt he'll get a pep talk from 1 on Christmas.... I agree that the ending really doesn't hold up if you think about it. I also hate how Bill and Clara have the exact same fate and how the Missy turning good wasn't really solved and was just another bungled up arc
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 20:21:40 GMT
Well, I tried to give it another chance. Same feeling. On the whole positive, but the faults remain. Still don't like the overdone melodrama/sentimentalism during the last 1/3 or 1/4. They even address the fundamental absurdity I pointed out earlier. The Doctor explains they can’t escape because the further they go to the top up a lift, the faster time will be passing for the cybermen relative to them. Exactly. That’s why the repair crew would have arrived back on the bridge faster than if this had been a repair job in normal space. (Unless, as someone noted, we choose to make up a bunch of stuff not in the script about how actually, the engines were broken so the repair crew decided to live out their life down there, while inexplicably not alerting the bridge. One could also suppose that a magical space-time whatsit was actually off-screen throughout Kill The Moon, making sure that normal physics could be circumvented, and that setting magical spacetime whatsits are just another thing that the moon-creatures create when they pick a breeding spot.) That just doesn't work for me, and frankly gives license to the show to not even try to be coherent. One of the things that bugs me most about it is that it is completely unnecessary to have such faults, as BF demonstrates time and time again. Anyway, I think I'll leave that particular horse alone for the moment (well, until the next episode where a similar fault arises). As for my sense that the desire not to regenerate was almost suicidal sounding rather than 10 "I don't want to go" sounding, there was the bit where he's about to blow everything up. He starts regenerating after being shot (49:56) and says "Doctor, Doctor. Let it go. Time enough.” Stops regenerating, inhales, blows up all the gas lines. “Pity, no stars. I hoped there be stars." It sounded very much like he's saying "nah, don't regenerate because I'm simply done with this". (After all, remember how 10 lost a hand while still in the 24h after regenerating and it just plain grew back. How River could take a hail of bullets then blow up Nazis with regeneration juice? No reason to think he wouldn't survive the explosion if he had actually regenerated as he set it off. Hence the way I took things, which is probably foolish because there is little to no effort to keep so much as one season of reboot consistent with another, let alone the classic series.) Then there's all the later stuff I already addressed re: repeating insistence that he can't keep changing, doesn't want to regenerate, and "wherever it is, I'll stay", whatever that means. (What's his plan anyway, if he isn't really as world-weary as he sounded to me? Spend the rest of his life on an ice planet, fighting regeneration every 50 seconds. Until what? He passes out from cold exposure and regenerates anyway?) I know that's not where the show is going, seeing as it isn't being canceled. But it still had that tone for me. Ah well, no doubt he'll get a pep talk from 1 on Christmas.... I agree that the ending really doesn't hold up if you think about it. I also hate how Bill and Clara have the exact same fate and how the Missy turning good wasn't really solved and was just another bungled up arc It was solved. She was killed by one of her former selves who couldn't stand the idea of a future version of himself being good.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 20:28:23 GMT
It was solved. She was killed by one of her former selves who couldn't stand the idea of a future version of himself being good. Couldn't agree more - it was 100% resolved. Missy's ending was handled perfectly in my book. She finally made a stand and then she died for it. She decided to go to her oldest friend in his hour of need and he'll never know she did. It's gorgeous. Tragic and gorgeous. The scene of her and Simm both howling at the ironies of it all was fantastic but then seeing Missy lie back and the smile vanish from her as she slips away looking up, maybe thinking - like her friend - it would be nice to see stars...man. That's such good stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 20:33:40 GMT
It was solved. She was killed by one of her former selves who couldn't stand the idea of a future version of himself being good. Couldn't agree more - it was 100% resolved. Missy's ending was resolved perfectly. She finally made a stand and then she died for it. She decided to go to her oldest friend in his hour of need and he'll never know she did. It's gorgeous. Tragic and gorgeous. The scene of her and Simm both howling at the ironies of it all was fantastic but then seeing Missy lie back and the smile vanish from her as she slips away looking up, maybe thinking - like her friend - it would be nice to see stars...man. That's such good stuff. Yes, the tragedy of him never knowing! Wonderful stuff
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Post by mrperson on Jul 6, 2017 20:47:50 GMT
Tend to agree more with Josh on the (non-)redemption thing.
Take Stalin. Increase his crimes by several orders of magnitude, so instead of thirty to one hundred million, he's killed oh....five septillion people across galaxies. K? Five septillion. Then let's say he catches a single would-be murderer and kills that would-be murderer before he can push an old lady down the stairs. Then, he feels sad and shoots himself in the head.
Stalin redeemed? Five septillion murders forgiven? He's a good soul now? Genuinely redeemed?
I rather think there are some acts for which there is no redemption. Especially when the same act has been repeated enough times to make Earth's worst monsters look like small time criminals.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 20:54:48 GMT
Tend to agree more with Josh on the (non-)redemption thing. Take Stalin. Increase his crimes by several orders of magnitude, so instead of thirty to one hundred million, he's killed oh....five septillion people across galaxies. K? Five septillion. Then let's say he catches a single would-be murderer and kills that would-be murderer before he can push an old lady down the stairs. Then, he feels sad and shoots himself in the head. Stalin redeemed? Five septillion murders forgiven? He's a good soul now? The minute you try to equate things like how we respond to a comic character in a BBC family show with real life dictators who slaughtered millions, I'm out. It's not a fair comparison. There's no suspension of disbelief for real life. Nonsense comment, frankly, which evokes Goodwin's law.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 20:55:45 GMT
Tend to agree more with Josh on the (non-)redemption thing. Take Stalin. Increase his crimes by several orders of magnitude, so instead of thirty to one hundred million, he's killed oh....five septillion people across galaxies. K? Five septillion. Then let's say he catches a single would-be murderer and kills that would-be murderer before he can push an old lady down the stairs. Then, he feels sad and shoots himself in the head. Stalin redeemed? Five septillion murders forgiven? He's a good soul now? Genuinely redeemed?I rather think there are some acts for which there is no redemption. Especially when the same act has been repeated enough times to make Earth's worst monsters look like small time criminals. Well, wether you think her decision to stand with the Doctor outweighs everything she's done previously isn't really the point. We were watching the emotional journey of the character, which I thought was handled amazingly. That doesn't make everything OK. It might have done for the Doctor, because, plankton, but he never knew about it he thinks he failed to turn her away from her evil ways.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 20:58:40 GMT
It was solved. She was killed by one of her former selves who couldn't stand the idea of a future version of himself being good. Couldn't agree more - it was 100% resolved. Missy's ending was handled perfectly in my book. She finally made a stand and then she died for it. She decided to go to her oldest friend in his hour of need and he'll never know she did. It's gorgeous. Tragic and gorgeous. The scene of her and Simm both howling at the ironies of it all was fantastic but then seeing Missy lie back and the smile vanish from her as she slips away looking up, maybe thinking - like her friend - it would be nice to see stars...man. That's such good stuff. A thumbs-up would probably have done, but I want to say, that's brilliantly put. And quite right too.
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