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Post by mark687 on Jul 30, 2020 11:10:26 GMT
'Time Apart' you have 18 hours and the clock is ticking... 36 Technically Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 11:27:23 GMT
I had thought that the Vortex interviews had mentioned that the examination of his views was already a major part of the story. I may be misremembering or had misread it but personally I think it’s good that they added it if it wasn’t in there before. I think it would be a mistake to assume that adding some lines means no similar lines were in there already. Just finished it up. The impression I got was that a lot of the subtext in the conversations between the Doctor and Flip (and probably also Constance) have become text. There's a lot less ambiguity (or maybe a much more direct address?) in the Doctor's stance on Lovecraft's views as a person than probably was in the original recording otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 11:28:14 GMT
'Time Apart' you have 18 hours and the clock is ticking... 36 Technically Regards mark687 The Order page says "AVAILABLE JULY 2020". You/we may well be right. And perhaps the August release may be back to the normal timetable. Like the old joke about waiting ages for a Bus then three come along in quick succession....
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Post by grinch on Jul 30, 2020 11:31:11 GMT
I think it would be a mistake to assume that adding some lines means no similar lines were in there already. Just finished it up. The impression I got was that a lot of the subtext in the conversations between the Doctor and Flip (and probably also Constance) have become text. There's a lot less ambiguity (or maybe a much more direct address?) in the Doctor's stance on Lovecraft's views as a person than probably was in the original recording otherwise. Would you say that this “new” approach is in detriment to the story overall or works better? Not to play devils advocate or anything I’m just genuinely curious.
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Post by nitronine on Jul 30, 2020 11:34:36 GMT
I had thought that the Vortex interviews had mentioned that the examination of his views was already a major part of the story. I may be misremembering or had misread it but personally I think it’s good that they added it if it wasn’t in there before. I think it would be a mistake to assume that adding some lines means no similar lines were in there already. I haven’t heard the story yet and fully understand the delay, I had wondered maybe if the subject had been edited out and then put back in at a later stage. Sorry if it came off like I was being needlessly critical.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 30, 2020 11:36:12 GMT
Haven't heard the original or the amended, so am not commenting on what is actually in it (or not in it as the case may be).
My own view is that if there was no condemnation of HP's views then there should have been and BF were right to correct an omission and this delay/revision is something that should have been done regardless of BLM riots.
If however, as I suspect, the condemnation was already there but not in a preachy sledgehammer kind of way, and BF have taken out the nuance and the shades of grey and now inserted a few sledgehammers purely to appease the loud Twitter bullies then I would be a bit disappointed that they didn't stand their ground.
But we'll never know
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Post by number13 on Jul 30, 2020 11:38:24 GMT
'Time Apart' you have 18 hours and the clock is ticking... 36 Technically Regards mark687 You're more patient than me Mark!
I'll be checking my account right on the chimes of midnight and drafting a furious complaint letter by 00:01... We don't want the Monthly Range (I got it right for once) to end its days as the "Maybe" Range do we?
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jul 30, 2020 11:41:32 GMT
Just finished it up. The impression I got was that a lot of the subtext in the conversations between the Doctor and Flip (and probably also Constance) have become text. There's a lot less ambiguity (or maybe a much more direct address?) in the Doctor's stance on Lovecraft's views as a person than probably was in the original recording otherwise. Would you say that this “new” approach is in detriment to the story overall or works better? Not to play devils advocate or anything I’m just genuinely curious. Not having heard it I can only answer in general terms, but in all drama I fell subtlety/nuance/shade of grey works better than preaching and ramming messages down the viewer/listener's throat. I mean "works better" both in terms of a more satisfying drama but also is more effective at actually getting the message across that the writer wants to get across.
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Post by grinch on Jul 30, 2020 11:44:20 GMT
Would you say that this “new” approach is in detriment to the story overall or works better? Not to play devils advocate or anything I’m just genuinely curious. Not having heard it I can only answer in general terms, but in all drama I fell subtlety/nuance/shade of grey works better than preaching and ramming messages down the viewer/listener's throat. I mean "works better" both in terms of a more satisfying drama but also is more effective at actually getting the message across that the writer wants to get across.
Agreed. Silly question on my part really.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 11:49:41 GMT
Just finished it up. The impression I got was that a lot of the subtext in the conversations between the Doctor and Flip (and probably also Constance) have become text. There's a lot less ambiguity (or maybe a much more direct address?) in the Doctor's stance on Lovecraft's views as a person than probably was in the original recording otherwise. Would you say that this new approach is in detriment to the story overall or works better? Not to play devils advocate or anything I’m just genuinely curious. I like the question. To be honest, I enjoyed it and I'd recommend the release to people who are curious to listen... However, I feel I can't make an assessment one way or the other if it's better without seeing the original script (which, because of the complicated nature of this release, we subscribers don't have this time). As much as I would like to say definitively, I'm just not sure.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 12:13:04 GMT
Haven't heard the original or the amended, so am not commenting on what is actually in it (or not in it as the case may be). My own view is that if there was no condemnation of HP's views then there should have been and BF were right to correct an omission and this delay/revision is something that should have been done regardless of BLM riots. If however, as I suspect, the condemnation was already there but not in a preachy sledgehammer kind of way, and BF have taken out the nuance and the shades of grey and now inserted a few sledgehammers purely to appease the loud Twitter bullies then I would be a bit disappointed that they didn't stand their ground. But we'll never know The quote from Vortex 133, page 22 is from Robert is "I wanted to celebrate Lovecraft’s fiction and present Lovecraft himself as a flawed and fragile but very human being, while neither sidestepping his abhorrent views nor demonising him for them. Fingers crossed, I’ve succeeded.” I feel bad for Robert as that's exactly the kind of thing just a few months ago that you'd be safe in saying. Now, post-George Floyd's murder, with the cause of Black Lives Matter being taken more seriously by all, statue removals and the like...the 'not demonising him for his views' doesn't quite fly as easily. This wasn't just someone who used the N-word as a product of the time - he wrote a published poem about how black people were between whites and animals on the evolutionary scale. He wrote that "The Jew must be muzzled as they insidiously degrade and Orientalize the robust Aryan civilization". He supported lynchings of blacks for crimes where the laws wouldn't punish them to the satisfaction of the local whites. Even for his time he was pretty abhorrent. The world has moved very, very quickly over race relations in a few short months and innocently, this story may have been too close to what now would seem like fence-sitting at best and turning a blind-eye to the real extent of his hate in favour of saying how great his writings could be at worst. (and some of it is indeed stunningly ahead of it's time). Now that clearly would not have been Robert's intent but again...we've moved so quickly in the "real world" that refusal to call out racists as such explicitly and without excuse would be less palatable now than just the start of the year. There's not much room for "He may be have a racist but..." anymore. I think in adding lines or moving things to the fore (or making subtext into text as Wolfie says) means what was perhaps the story "neither sidestepping his abhorrent views nor demonising him for them" originally still allows the story to do that in essence but perhaps make it more explicit from the outset that, yes, we're dealing with a historical figure but we're listening to the story in 2020 and some concession has to be made to our times. The story taking a metaphorical knee from the outset, as it were to put it into today's terms. I think it's a good thing BF have done in recognizing that they don't exist in a pop culture bubble and better tweak things to make sure they're in touch not just with the times but to ensure what Robert and BF wish to say actually comes across. They're using a Doctor from the 1980s to meet a figure from the 1920s...but again - they're selling it to us in 2020. If they've been heavy handed then so be it - some things have been treated with kiddy gloves for too long and racism, xenophobia and anti-semitism deserve a heavy comdemnation. A lot heavier than they've had, given the rise of extremism all over the world in recent years. Sometimes subtle allegory works, sometimes you need broad strokes and to take a firm stand. I think this is the time for the latter and I'm glad BF aren't afraid to rethink things like their approach to issues that are far more important than making sure an audio story comes out on time.
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Post by number13 on Jul 30, 2020 12:28:13 GMT
And it's only a few short months since the MR presented us with a nasty French Resistance member and gave some Nazi invaders of France and a Nazi collaborator an easy ride (I thought so at least.) And told us firmly how wrong Constance was to 'hate' them for what they had done. 'It was so easy to have enemies and blame them and hate them.'
Almost everyone seemed to think it was not only acceptable but made for better drama...
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Post by grinch on Jul 30, 2020 12:35:21 GMT
The quote from Vortex 133, page 22 is from Robert is "I wanted to celebrate Lovecraft’s fiction and present Lovecraft himself as a flawed and fragile but very human being, while neither sidestepping his abhorrent views nor demonising him for them. Fingers crossed, I’ve succeeded.” I feel bad for Robert as that's exactly the kind of thing just a few months ago that you'd be safe in saying. Now, post-George Floyd's murder, with the cause of Black Lives Matter being taken more seriously by all, statue removals and the like...the 'not demonising him for his views' doesn't quite fly as easily. This wasn't just someone who used the N-word as a product of the time - he wrote a published poem about how black people were between whites and animals on the evolutionary scale. He wrote that "The Jew must be muzzled as they insidiously degrade and Orientalize the robust Aryan civilization". He supported lynchings of blacks for crimes where the laws wouldn't punish them to the satisfaction of the local whites. Even for his time he was pretty abhorrent. The world has moved very, very quickly over race relations in a few short months and innocently, this story may have been too close to what now would seem like fence-sitting at best and turning a blind-eye to the real extent of his hate in favour of saying how great his writings could be (and some of it is indeed stunningly ahead of it's time). I think in adding lines, or moving things to the fore (or making subtext into text as Wolfie says), means what was perhaps the story "neither sidestepping his abhorrent views nor demonising him for them" originally, it can still do that, but perhaps make it more explicit from the outset that, yes, we're dealing with a historical figure but we're listening to the story in 2020 and some concession has to be made to our times. The story taking a knee from the outset, as it were. And it's only a few short months since the MR presented us with a nasty French Resistance member and gave some Nazi invaders of France and a Nazi collaborator an easy ride (I thought so at least.) And told us firmly how wrong Constance was to 'hate' them for what they had done. Almost everyone seemed to think it was not only acceptable but made for better drama... It’s definitely a topic worth talking about and I almost wonder if this will affect any future historical releases going forward. Have to approach them a bit more tactfully than perhaps we would have previously. As I recall I remember when this story was first announced (pre the riots and statue toppling) there was some people crying foul and how dare Big Finish tackle someone such as Lovecraft! Some more extreme voices even suggested that DW should stop historical adventures in general. Thankfully it was no one on here but it did get me thinking.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 12:42:59 GMT
The quote from Vortex 133, page 22 is from Robert is "I wanted to celebrate Lovecraft’s fiction and present Lovecraft himself as a flawed and fragile but very human being, while neither sidestepping his abhorrent views nor demonising him for them. Fingers crossed, I’ve succeeded.” I feel bad for Robert as that's exactly the kind of thing just a few months ago that you'd be safe in saying. Now, post-George Floyd's murder, with the cause of Black Lives Matter being taken more seriously by all, statue removals and the like...the 'not demonising him for his views' doesn't quite fly as easily. This wasn't just someone who used the N-word as a product of the time - he wrote a published poem about how black people were between whites and animals on the evolutionary scale. He wrote that "The Jew must be muzzled as they insidiously degrade and Orientalize the robust Aryan civilization". He supported lynchings of blacks for crimes where the laws wouldn't punish them to the satisfaction of the local whites. Even for his time he was pretty abhorrent. The world has moved very, very quickly over race relations in a few short months and innocently, this story may have been too close to what now would seem like fence-sitting at best and turning a blind-eye to the real extent of his hate in favour of saying how great his writings could be (and some of it is indeed stunningly ahead of it's time). I think in adding lines, or moving things to the fore (or making subtext into text as Wolfie says), means what was perhaps the story "neither sidestepping his abhorrent views nor demonising him for them" originally, it can still do that, but perhaps make it more explicit from the outset that, yes, we're dealing with a historical figure but we're listening to the story in 2020 and some concession has to be made to our times. The story taking a knee from the outset, as it were. And it's only a few short months since the MR presented us with a nasty French Resistance member and gave some Nazi invaders of France and a Nazi collaborator an easy ride (I thought so at least.) And told us firmly how wrong Constance was to 'hate' them for what they had done. Almost everyone seemed to think it was not only acceptable but made for better drama... I certainly remember some people like Tuigirl calling the story out for that exact thing. I've not listened to the WW2 story yet myself so won't condemn or approve of the drama - I've a backlog bigger than the Royal Mail at Christmas - but again, what flew just months ago won't now when dealing with any form of intolerance. I'm happy knowing BF acknowledge where they can do better and actively change it, even with barely any notice and knowing it'll peeve some of their buyers who want everything on time, every time.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2020 12:51:59 GMT
And it's only a few short months since the MR presented us with a nasty French Resistance member and gave some Nazi invaders of France and a Nazi collaborator an easy ride (I thought so at least.) And told us firmly how wrong Constance was to 'hate' them for what they had done. Almost everyone seemed to think it was not only acceptable but made for better drama... It’s definitely a topic worth talking about and I almost wonder if this will affect any future historical releases going forward. Have to approach them a bit more tactfully than perhaps we would have previously. As I recall I remember when this story was first announced (pre the riots and statue toppling) there was some people crying foul and how dare Big Finish tackle someone such as Lovecraft! Some more extreme voices even suggested that DW should stop historical adventures in general. Thankfully it was no one on here but it did get me thinking. Well, I think those people are being OTT in the extreme. History is too interesting a place to not revisit, especially in a show centred around a time machine. That would stymie the premise of the entire property.
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Post by nitronine on Jul 30, 2020 12:54:45 GMT
Haven't heard the original or the amended, so am not commenting on what is actually in it (or not in it as the case may be). My own view is that if there was no condemnation of HP's views then there should have been and BF were right to correct an omission and this delay/revision is something that should have been done regardless of BLM riots. If however, as I suspect, the condemnation was already there but not in a preachy sledgehammer kind of way, and BF have taken out the nuance and the shades of grey and now inserted a few sledgehammers purely to appease the loud Twitter bullies then I would be a bit disappointed that they didn't stand their ground.But we'll never know I haven't heard it yet either, but I think that in some circumstances you shouldn't condemn in shades of grey. Knowing what I do about Lovecraft (admittedly very little and mostly only what was posted on here) I don't feel like he's the type of historical figure who we can just say "he's a bigot, but..." because his views weren't the norm for his time so we can't blame the general society he was living in. I'm not saying that BF originally took this approach as I have no insider info but I think there's a time and a place for subtlety and that time isn't right now.
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Post by number13 on Jul 30, 2020 12:58:51 GMT
And it's only a few short months since the MR presented us with a nasty French Resistance member and gave some Nazi invaders of France and a Nazi collaborator an easy ride (I thought so at least.) And told us firmly how wrong Constance was to 'hate' them for what they had done. Almost everyone seemed to think it was not only acceptable but made for better drama... I certainly remember some people like Tuigirl calling the story out for that exact thing. I've not listened to the WW2 story yet myself so won't condemn or approve of the drama - I've a backlog bigger than the Royal Mail at Christmas - but again, what flew just months ago won't now when dealing with any form of intolerance. I'm happy knowing BF acknowledge where they can do better and actively change it, even with barely any notice and knowing it'll peeve some of their buyers who want everything on time, every time. I wasn't intending my post to be a 'Reply' to you Davy, I'd been reading your post and obviously clicked "quote" not "reply", but thanks for replying anyway! And yes Tuigirl was the other poster who I do remember commenting about the story. The discussion on that thread got quite - prolonged. The MR seems to have been having that sort of effect recently!
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Post by stcoop on Jul 30, 2020 14:39:04 GMT
As I think I said last month, Lovecraft's views were so bad that he was called out on the in his lifetime. Which is pretty amazing when you consider what people did let slide back in the 1930s.
There's plenty of historical characters that you could get away with the "product of their time" excuse but he's not really one of them.
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Post by Digi on Jul 30, 2020 14:57:11 GMT
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Post by tuigirl on Jul 30, 2020 18:16:20 GMT
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