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Post by fantasticalice on Jan 29, 2018 11:37:39 GMT
Well the warehpouse deal clinched it. It's rare for me to get non contiguous releases but it has the monk, cybermen, and most importantly Katy!!
I wonder if they would ever do something with the Beevers Master though? Or is that something continuity-wonky they wish to avoid?
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Post by number13 on Jan 29, 2018 12:02:27 GMT
Well the warehpouse deal clinched it. It's rare for me to get non contiguous releases but it has the monk, cybermen, and most importantly Katy!! I wonder if they would ever do something with the Beevers Master though? Or is that something continuity-wonky they wish to avoid? If we imagine all the new 3DAs from 'The Conquest of Far' onwards as following directly and in sequence after 'Planet of the Daleks', then we're in a period after Roger Delgado's last appearance. So this would seem the perfect time for the (healthy) Beevers Master to show up. There might be a continuity issue if novels are included, but I don't know them so I don't include them!
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Post by fingersmash on Jan 29, 2018 12:07:52 GMT
Well the warehpouse deal clinched it. It's rare for me to get non contiguous releases but it has the monk, cybermen, and most importantly Katy!! I wonder if they would ever do something with the Beevers Master though? Or is that something continuity-wonky they wish to avoid? So this would seem the perfect time for the (healthy) Beevers Master to show up. There might be a continuity issue if novels are included, but I don't know them so I don't include them! Continuity? I don't know her, she sounds like a real drag though
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 29, 2018 15:57:38 GMT
Well the warehpouse deal clinched it. It's rare for me to get non contiguous releases but it has the monk, cybermen, and most importantly Katy!! I wonder if they would ever do something with the Beevers Master though? Or is that something continuity-wonky they wish to avoid? If we imagine all the new 3DAs from 'The Conquest of Far' onwards as following directly and in sequence after 'Planet of the Daleks', then we're in a period after Roger Delgado's last appearance. So this would seem the perfect time for the (healthy) Beevers Master to show up. There might be a continuity issue if novels are included, but I don't know them so I don't include them! As far as the Master is concerned, BF has alread diverged from the novels. {Spoiler} The novels show Susan meeting the Eighth Doctor for the first time and then injuring the Delgado Master badly enough that he becomes the decayed Pratt/Beevers Master.
This obviously contradicts An Earthly Child and The Two Masters.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 29, 2018 16:10:11 GMT
If we imagine all the new 3DAs from 'The Conquest of Far' onwards as following directly and in sequence after 'Planet of the Daleks', then we're in a period after Roger Delgado's last appearance. So this would seem the perfect time for the (healthy) Beevers Master to show up. There might be a continuity issue if novels are included, but I don't know them so I don't include them! As far as the Master is concerned, BF has alread diverged from the novels. {Spoiler} The novels show Susan meeting the Eighth Doctor for the first time and then injuring the Delgado Master badly enough that he becomes the decayed Pratt/Beevers Master.
This obviously contradicts An Earthly Child and The Two Masters. And the DWM comic where Delgado regenerates.
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Jan 29, 2018 16:12:00 GMT
If we imagine all the new 3DAs from 'The Conquest of Far' onwards as following directly and in sequence after 'Planet of the Daleks', then we're in a period after Roger Delgado's last appearance. So this would seem the perfect time for the (healthy) Beevers Master to show up. There might be a continuity issue if novels are included, but I don't know them so I don't include them! As far as the Master is concerned, BF has alread diverged from the novels. {Spoiler} The novels show Susan meeting the Eighth Doctor for the first time and then injuring the Delgado Master badly enough that he becomes the decayed Pratt/Beevers Master.
This obviously contradicts An Earthly Child and The Two Masters. And the DWM comic where Delgado regenerates.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 29, 2018 18:58:07 GMT
As far as the Master is concerned, BF has alread diverged from the novels. {Spoiler} The novels show Susan meeting the Eighth Doctor for the first time and then injuring the Delgado Master badly enough that he becomes the decayed Pratt/Beevers Master.
This obviously contradicts An Earthly Child and The Two Masters. And the DWM comic where Delgado regenerates. That too, but Number13 only asked about the novels. I assume that, had the comic showed us the entire regeneration, we would have seen him regenerate into a health Pratt/Beevers.
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Post by constonks on Jan 29, 2018 21:57:40 GMT
It's really only Legacy of the Daleks that got ignored - no other novel touched on any part of the decayed Master's life, or the end of Delgado's.
(Although I believe there was a Fourth Doctor & Sarah short story with Delgado?)
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jan 29, 2018 22:53:25 GMT
I'm so glad we've moved past the "Beevers/Pratt is Delgado" idea. They don't act anything alike, even in the TV series.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 30, 2018 2:02:14 GMT
It's really only Legacy of the Daleks that got ignored - no other novel touched on any part of the decayed Master's life, or the end of Delgado's. (Although I believe there was a Fourth Doctor & Sarah short story with Delgado?) Well, I think other audios contradicted the Virgin New Adventures depiction of the Master as well as the Eighth Doctor DWM depiction. {Spoiler} I haven’t read those ones, so I could be wrong, but I believe they show the Ainley Master regenerating into a new incarnation. This would contradict Dust Breeding, which shows that the warp core destroyed Tremas’ body, leaving the Master stuck as Beevers again.
Then, after the TV Movie, the comics show him escaping the Eye of Harmony, getting a new body, and trying to destroy the multiverse (or some ridiculous scheme like that) in the early 2000s. This contradicts Mastermind and The Centenarrian, which shows that the Master escaped the Eye in the early 1900s and possessed a series of people over the century who all decayed into the Beevers Master.
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Post by constonks on Jan 30, 2018 2:41:47 GMT
I haven’t read those ones, so I could be wrong, but I believe they show the Ainley Master regenerating into a new incarnation. This would contradict Dust Breeding, which shows that the warp core destroyed Tremas’ body, leaving the Master stuck as Beevers again.
First Frontier has the Master become a Basil Rathbone lookalike through some dodgy alien science. But! Happy Endings shows him searching for a new body again so he could easily have just degenerated back to Tremas if the science didn't take. At the end of that comic, Kroton puts him "somewhere safe". Could easily be back in the TARDIS, but without the influence over time he had. There's a bit of headcanon in there but it's not impossible to reconcile. The much harder one is The Dark Path and The Destination Wars, although I've not listened to the latter yet.
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Post by fantasticalice on Jan 30, 2018 2:55:41 GMT
Aside from book continuity, it IS believable that Beevers is Ainley and Roberts. Obviously all 3 actors bring something Unique to the part but they all have a very evil outlook on things. Roberts and Ainley are also bonkers which could be explained as the freedom that comes with suddenly havin a body again.
But Delgado is so distinct from Beevers it's nigh impossible to see it as the same regeneration.
It's like the Diana Rigg Master. We know so little of her and she may well have been an extended disguise and not a original cycle female regeneration.
Also the last thing we need to do is crunch regenerations into one. It's unfortunate that Pratt/Beevers/Ainley and even Roberts are technically all 13th but its the only way it works.
That's why I get irked when people suggest MacQueen is in the original cycle. I think he might be 1 in the Nü cycle.
If they got the right story they could use Macqueen for the Master. You could even see the Third Doctor refusing to accept him as the Master and MacQueen just giving up, lying and saying he isn't. Since MacQueen doesn't have the vague approval obsession other Masters have displayed it would work.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Jan 30, 2018 4:02:35 GMT
Aside from book continuity, it IS believable that Beevers is Ainley and Roberts. Obviously all 3 actors bring something Unique to the part but they all have a very evil outlook on things. Roberts and Ainley are also bonkers which could be explained as the freedom that comes with suddenly havin a body again. But Delgado is so distinct from Beevers it's nigh impossible to see it as the same regeneration. It's like the Diana Rigg Master. We know so little of her and she may well have been an extended disguise and not a original cycle female regeneration. Also the last thing we need to do is crunch regenerations into one. It's unfortunate that Pratt/Beevers/Ainley and even Roberts are technically all 13th but its the only way it works. That's why I get irked when people suggest MacQueen is in the original cycle. I think he might be 1 in the Nü cycle. If they got the right story they could use Macqueen for the Master. You could even see the Third Doctor refusing to accept him as the Master and MacQueen just giving up, lying and saying he isn't. Since MacQueen doesn't have the vague approval obsession other Masters have displayed it would work. Tell me more about this Diana Rigg Master.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 30, 2018 5:13:38 GMT
I haven’t read those ones, so I could be wrong, but I believe they show the Ainley Master regenerating into a new incarnation. This would contradict Dust Breeding, which shows that the warp core destroyed Tremas’ body, leaving the Master stuck as Beevers again.
The much harder one is The Dark Path and The Destination Wars, although I've not listened to the latter yet. I forgot about one. That is also pretty hard to reconcile. {Spoiler} Destination Wars features a pre-Delgado incarnation who is already evil, not affiliated with the Time Lords, and already calling himself Master.
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Post by number13 on Jan 30, 2018 13:35:43 GMT
The much harder one is The Dark Path and The Destination Wars, although I've not listened to the latter yet. I forgot about one. That is also pretty hard to reconcile. {Spoiler} Destination Wars features a pre-Delgado incarnation who is already evil, not affiliated with the Time Lords, and already calling himself Master. {Master Spoiler} And he's the incarnation the Doctor knows from Gallifrey. So if they were at the academy together, excepting accidents we don't know about that could have caused a regeneration, wouldn't that make him the First Master? And no, I don't have a clue how to reconcile that with 'The Toy' which strongly implies the Delgado Master was the one the Doctor knew back home!
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Post by fingersmash on Jan 30, 2018 14:06:15 GMT
I forgot about one. That is also pretty hard to reconcile. {Spoiler} Destination Wars features a pre-Delgado incarnation who is already evil, not affiliated with the Time Lords, and already calling himself Master. {Master Spoiler} And he's the incarnation the Doctor knows from Gallifrey. So if they were at the academy together, excepting accidents we don't know about that could have caused a regeneration, wouldn't that make him the First Master? And no, I don't have a clue how to reconcile that with 'The Toy' which strongly implies the Delgado Master was the one the Doctor knew back home! I'm telling y'all, this Canon person sounds like a total drag you should really not bother with her.
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Post by number13 on Jan 30, 2018 14:37:53 GMT
{Master Spoiler} And he's the incarnation the Doctor knows from Gallifrey. So if they were at the academy together, excepting accidents we don't know about that could have caused a regeneration, wouldn't that make him the First Master? And no, I don't have a clue how to reconcile that with 'The Toy' which strongly implies the Delgado Master was the one the Doctor knew back home! I'm telling y'all, this Canon person sounds like a total drag you should really not bother with her. Yes I'll go with that, as long as they don't do anything outrageously non-canonical like having two totally different Dalek origin stories or forgetting the Valeyard ever existed, but nobody would do that would they...? It's all a bit of speculative fun, but 'Doctor Who' canon is a twisty-turny wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey unreconcilable mess and I really don't care at all! much, except about the important bits which are of course the ones I think are important.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2018 7:37:37 GMT
It's really only Legacy of the Daleks that got ignored - no other novel touched on any part of the decayed Master's life, or the end of Delgado's. (Although I believe there was a Fourth Doctor & Sarah short story with Delgado?) The Duke of Dominoes. It could really take place at any point in the Delgado Master's life though, like his visit to the Land of Fiction. I can't help but feel that the Master's attitude towards the snarls in his timeline would be: "Is it indeed? Well, more for me." If he can exploit it, so much the better. Besides, the Doctor himself isn't above these little incongruities. We don't mention what happened on Dust (don't mention the War!) or that Sixie is so full of life it takes three separate deaths to finally keep him down.
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Post by constonks on Jan 31, 2018 14:20:51 GMT
It's really only Legacy of the Daleks that got ignored - no other novel touched on any part of the decayed Master's life, or the end of Delgado's. (Although I believe there was a Fourth Doctor & Sarah short story with Delgado?) The Duke of Dominoes. It could really take place at any point in the Delgado Master's life though, like his visit to the Land of Fiction. I can't help but feel that the Master's attitude towards the snarls in his timeline would be: "Is it indeed? Well, more for me." If he can exploit it, so much the better. Besides, the Doctor himself isn't above these little incongruities. We don't mention what happened on Dust (don't mention the War!) or that Sixie is so full of life it takes three separate deaths to finally keep him down. Well the Master has a number of bodies in the four hundreds in Harvest of Time so it's safe to say he's done some strange things with time over the millenia to make that possible. Any inconsistencies could be by design.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2018 0:16:45 GMT
The Duke of Dominoes. It could really take place at any point in the Delgado Master's life though, like his visit to the Land of Fiction. I can't help but feel that the Master's attitude towards the snarls in his timeline would be: "Is it indeed? Well, more for me." If he can exploit it, so much the better. Besides, the Doctor himself isn't above these little incongruities. We don't mention what happened on Dust (don't mention the War!) or that Sixie is so full of life it takes three separate deaths to finally keep him down. Well the Master has a number of bodies in the four hundreds in Harvest of Time so it's safe to say he's done some strange things with time over the millenia to make that possible. Any inconsistencies could be by design. Exactly. Even in a more conventional sense, Prime Time has him sneak off to grab a new body from the Fleshsmiths (unsuccessfully) and his scheme in Happy Endings was all about cloning (unsuccessfully). After a certain point, he might've just gotten fed-up and rewritten his own history, deciding that he was more important than the fabric of Time. They do end up stabbing each other in the back at one point, after all.
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