|
Post by rran on Dec 18, 2017 3:52:51 GMT
Me too. I loved the Clone wars as well. Oh, you should try the Ahsoka novel by E.K. Johnston. Set between Clone Wars and Rebels. I'll do that. After the disappointment that was The Last Jedi, I need some good Star Wars
|
|
|
Post by Timelord007 on Dec 18, 2017 8:21:37 GMT
If this is Disney's future for Star Wars I'm out we'll have to agree to disagree on this film as i thought it a abomination, why set up teasers in Force Awakens if you don't give a satisfactory pay off, nothing moved forward plot wise for me & i thought it a terrible movie but I'm glad you enjoyed it i will console myself with the war master box set. Snoke all powerful yet didn't notice the light saber turning towards him, Luke isolation was out of character he'd fight with the rebels because of Leia not turn his back on her, Reys parents ok there nobody but then don't tease she could be a skywalker or Kenobi. What happened to the knights of Ren? Finn subplot was pointless, Phasma was built up to be this bad ass stormtrooper but was given nothing interesting to do, Yoda i swear was drunk. The light saber battles were slow & Lukes final confrontation against Kylo & First Order was underwheming he did nothing & Luke is supposed to be the most powerful jedi, he must have read Episode 9 script & disappeared. We gone from Palpatine & Vader to Vaders grandson with tantrum issues & shouty Hux in charge of the First Order my God bring back George Lucas. And i still haven't a clue how that light saber was retrieved from Cloud City. Disney (barring Rogue One) & EA are in charge of Star Wars in movies & gaming I'll say no more. Disney own it but Kathleen Kennedy runs Star Wars the same way Kevin Feige does Marvel. They both were high up even before their respecting properties were snapped up by Disney so I don't think being owned by Fox or independent would make a difference - the same execs are on board. The same vision. To go through your points: How do you know Snoke is all powerful? Because you thought he was. You expected a new Palpatine. He wasn't. That's one of the themes of this movie - that people aren't who they think they are. Who they pretend to be isn't who they are. Snoke mocked Ben for not being Vader, all the while not realising he's no Palpatine. That's terrific stuff. They nailed Snoke there. He was a tool to get Ben where he needs to be. Knights Of Ren? Kylo is their head but what do you want from them? To be his Imperial Guard. What are they really going to add here. He's the boss man now, so they may play a part. The trilogy is only 2/3 done. Otherwise I'm sure they'll be in a novel or some such. This film has no need for them. Finn's subplot was the weakest but thematically it was terrific and the relationship with Rose was great. I've already said Del Toro lets this plotstrand down and I don't love the animal chase. I do love that this sets the scene for that terrifically bold last shot on an unnamed kid now living with a spar of hope. Worth it for that. Phasma got a great scene I thought. Not much she can do about a ship blowing up. I'd rather she got one cool scene than took up screen time when she's not going to have an arc or character. Luke is the most powerful Jedi? Well, Anakin was prophesised to bring balance to the force, I'm not sure where it says Luke was the most powerful anything....he got the perfect ending. He realised he had to return and then did so in the most beautifully Jedi-way. How dull if he just turned up and had a saber battle and was killed. Been there, done that. This was Luke giving his very being back to the Force. Using all his life to do it, sure, but dying with an act of love and hope, not anger. Gorgeous. He attoned for his hubris. Moaning about Kylo Ren having tantrums is something I see a lot, and did with the last film. That's the point. He's tortured. He's not truly able to embrace one side over the other and the conflict keeps him as an open wound. He's not supposed to be "the new Vader". He wants to be, and can't. That's his character. Like Luke thinking he could be Yoda and Snoak wanting to be Palpatine, he's discovered you can't live someone else's legacy. That he's overtly emotional is why he could be turned in the first place - Snoke sensed his weakness. And Luke sensed that he could handle his demons. Both were ultimately wrong. He's a deeper villain than Vader and Palpatine ever were. Again, why just want another Vader? They're doing something new. I don't want a Vader retread. What does it matter where the lightsaber came from? Would it change one single aspect of the film? There was a deleted scene in Ep VII where Maz Kanata was to explain how she got it - the film was going to open with a shot of the saber floating in space at one point - and JJ cut them both. Why? It added nothing. Nada. I respect your opinion my friend & you given good answers to my questions but i was very disappointed & underwhelmed by this film, maybe after recent family illnesses the thought of seeing a new Star Wars movie kinda kept me going so then to be disappointed by it has kinda deflated me. My issue is don't tease questions if you don't want to give a satisfactory pay off which this film didn't do, yeah the light saber does matter because it was clearly lost in the vacums of Cloud City only miraculously to turn up in Maz's trunk in Force Awakens, why also didn't Luke take out the First Orders AT ATs, it would've aided the rebels not having a few more AT ATs to worry about. But at end of the day some liked it like your good self & others loathed it like my bad self it's certain spilt fandom. At least my cousin lost none of his wicked sense of humour, he battling brain cancer & i took him to see this film & as we left the cinema he said "i don't feel so bad if I'm not around to see Episode 9 now", i looked at him & we both started laughing, my cousins just awesome.
|
|
|
Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 18, 2017 12:53:32 GMT
I saw this yesterday and I can see both sides of the argument. Its a very marmite movie for Star Wars fans and its very much proof that the Old EU is gone.
But the more some bits sink in the more im on the side of its a good film. Sure I hated how a lot of characters were treated. Blue Leader, Snoke, Phasma, DJ and some others. But the Rey and Kylo stuff was spot on
and to me to Crait sequence will be one of those epic remembered moments from the franchise.
What Disney need to stop doing I making it so that you have to read the books and comics and Illustrated history books to figure out the back stories for a lot of people.
Turned out Luke has gone into Barrash, where a Jedi cuts himself off from the force for penance. Its only mentioned in the Darth Vader comics and the Last Jedi Hostory book.
I think that's where the problems come down to
|
|
|
Post by Digi on Dec 18, 2017 12:58:59 GMT
Turned out Luke has gone into Barrash, where a Jedi cuts himself off from the force for penance. Its only mentioned in the Darth Vader comics and the Last Jedi Hostory book. I think that's where the problems come down to Er...I read all the Star Wars stuff and have no idea what you mean here. What on earth is a “barrash?” There’s nothing about TLJ Luke in either the concluded run of the Darth Vader comics or the current/ongoing one, and I’ve never even heard of a Last Jedi history book? :confused: Actually (for my fellow EU fans), what I immediately thought of re: Luke closing himself off to the Force, was the Jedi Exile in KOTOR2.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 13:02:02 GMT
But you don't need to know that - do you? Rey says "You've cut yourself off from the Force?" and he gives her a look that says "yeah, and I'm not going back to it". We don't need to know the technical in-universe term for his self-exile to know what's going on.
|
|
|
Post by Digi on Dec 18, 2017 13:06:03 GMT
But you don't need to know that - do you? Rey says "You've cut yourself off from the Force?" and he gives her a look that says "yeah, and I'm not going back to it". We don't need to know the technical in-universe term for his self-exile to know what's going on. That too
|
|
|
Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 18, 2017 13:07:35 GMT
Turned out Luke has gone into Barrash, where a Jedi cuts himself off from the force for penance. Its only mentioned in the Darth Vader comics and the Last Jedi Hostory book. I think that's where the problems come down to Er...I read all the Star Wars stuff and have no idea what you mean here. What on earth is a “barrash?” There’s nothing about TLJ Luke in either the concluded run of the Darth Vader comics or the current/ongoing one, and I’ve never even heard of a Last Jedi history book? :confused: Actually (for my fellow EU fans), what I immediately thought of re: Luke closing himself off to the Force, was the Jedi Exile in KOTOR2. Darth doesn't mention Luke. In his comics he talks about need a Kyber crystal for something and he needs to take it from a Jedi. He says its now difficult because of the Purge, but goes on to say about Jedi undergoing Barrash as Penance. so because they've cut themselves off from the Force they'll be difficult to find.
|
|
|
Post by whiskeybrewer on Dec 18, 2017 13:08:33 GMT
But you don't need to know that - do you? Rey says "You've cut yourself off from the Force?" and he gives her a look that says "yeah, and I'm not going back to it". We don't need to know the technical in-universe term for his self-exile to know what's going on. Oh I agree, but Ive seen that come up on other places since the films come out that they felt stuff wasn't really explained. So Im just using that as an example
|
|
aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,849
|
Post by aztec on Dec 18, 2017 13:09:38 GMT
Oh, you should try the Ahsoka novel by E.K. Johnston. Set between Clone Wars and Rebels. I'll do that. After the disappointment that was The Last Jedi, I need some good Star Wars The only new canon book I've read was Lost Stars which was fantastic (despite being a young adult book), heard good things about some of the new books/comics though, you might find this sub reddit useful: www.reddit.com/r/starwarscanon/
|
|
|
Post by Digi on Dec 18, 2017 13:20:43 GMT
Er...I read all the Star Wars stuff and have no idea what you mean here. What on earth is a “barrash?” There’s nothing about TLJ Luke in either the concluded run of the Darth Vader comics or the current/ongoing one, and I’ve never even heard of a Last Jedi history book? :confused: Actually (for my fellow EU fans), what I immediately thought of re: Luke closing himself off to the Force, was the Jedi Exile in KOTOR2. Darth doesn't mention Luke. In his comics he talks about need a Kyber crystal for something and he needs to take it from a Jedi. He says its now difficult because of the Purge, but goes on to say about Jedi undergoing Barrash as Penance. so because they've cut themselves off from the Force they'll be difficult to find. You mean that grumpy Jedi hermit with the droid from the first story arc? He was in self-imposed exile from before the end of the war, and had not cut himself off from the Force at all, but was just living as a hermit away from Jedi affairs. That’s not what Luke did/was doing here, that’s what Obi-Wan was doing from the end of the war till ANH. Luke had cut himself off not just from people, but from the Force.
|
|
|
Post by Digi on Dec 18, 2017 13:22:02 GMT
I'll do that. After the disappointment that was The Last Jedi, I need some good Star Wars The only new canon book I've read was Lost Stars which was fantastic (despite being a young adult book), heard good things about some of the new books/comics though, you might find this sub reddit useful: www.reddit.com/r/starwarscanon/The new canon has a surprisingly high ratio of good stuff, I’ve been quite pleased.
|
|
|
Post by Timelord007 on Dec 18, 2017 14:13:38 GMT
Force Awakens been thrown out my film collection, Last Jedi will never appear in my collection, for me Episode VI is my conclusion to the episodic movies lifes too short to waste on this Disney s..t, hopefully the spin off movies deliver although I'm only interested in a Kenobi or Vader movie.
Or a Knights Of The Old Republic trilogy.
|
|
|
Post by The Matt on Dec 18, 2017 14:33:09 GMT
Force Awakens been thrown out my film collection, Last Jedi will never appear in my collection, for me Episode VI is my conclusion to the episodic movies lifes too short to waste on this Disney s..t, Really? You've been keeping that quiet......
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 15:12:08 GMT
Force Awakens been thrown out my film collection, Last Jedi will never appear in my collection, for me Episode VI is my conclusion to the episodic movies lifes too short to waste on this Disney s..t, hopefully the spin off movies deliver although I'm only interested in a Kenobi or Vader movie. Or a Knights Of The Old Republic trilogy. Completely agree.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2017 21:55:59 GMT
My issue is don't tease questions if you don't want to give a satisfactory pay off which this film didn't do, yeah the light saber does matter because it was clearly lost in the vacums of Cloud City only miraculously to turn up in Maz's trunk in Force Awakens, why also didn't Luke take out the First Orders AT ATs, it would've aided the rebels not having a few more AT ATs to worry about. I hate to keep rebutting but....again, like your first post, some of this just doesn't make valid criticism of what happened on screen. Luke wasn't actually there - he couldn't attack the AT-AT. Watch the scene again - he never once makes a physical move to attack. He never makes a move to attack Kylo Ren. Their weapons never touch. He just dodges Ren's attacks and doesn't make hard contact with anything. He isn't there to take out the First Order or Luke would have went himself. As Poe rightly says it was one big diversionary tactic to let the rebels escape. Taking on the First Order in one last stand was never the plan - making Ren and Hux think that was the intention....that was the plan. Rejoining the rebellion, bringing light in the darkness and defiantly saying he's not going to be the Last Jedi is what Luke was doing. I think you're conditioned to just expect a lightsaber battle and a physical death after being run through by the villain's weapon. This was so much more. The rebels were gone by the end of that sequence anyway so it's not like they had to worry how many AT-ATs were at the gates by then. And again, why does the method of finding the Saber matter? In what way does giving you a "here's how Maz got it back" info dump do anything for the movie at all? JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson didn't think it mattered and neither did Lawrence Kasdan (but what does he know, he only wrote Empire? ) Again, it was explained in Ep VII's workprint and JJ took it out because it wasn't necessary and just served as fan-service that Rey wouldn't need nor care about at that point. Maz ended up with it. That's all that's relevant. Subverting expectations is as valid a way of answering questions as just picking a fan-theory and rolling with it is. SO Rey isn't a secret Skywalker....that's almost more surprising than revealing she's Kylo's twin would be. So Snoke wasn't a Palpatine big bad but an egotist who couldn't see the wood for the trees. Again, that's more surprising than just "Aha, he's really Darth Plageius" would be since every fanboy and their granny thought he was. It's a much bolder movie for not giving you easy fan-jodrelly answers. Maybe Yoda coulda done something against the First Order. He used that sweet force lightning on the tree, but maybe he too knew that cutting corners isn't a good idea.
|
|
|
Post by J.A. Prentice on Dec 19, 2017 7:19:48 GMT
This might actually be the best Star Wars film ever made. Wow. I totally understand why people don't like it. But wow. This is actual Art. Almost every scene is a deconstruction of Hollywood's idea of what a Hero is. Poe acts like Kirk from the JJ Abrams Star Trek movies or any of a hundred Hollywood "mavericks" but he's treated as a brash idiot with no idea of what he's doing. The Finn subplot was slightly weak, but I love everything else so much. After thinking The Force Awakens was garbage, I never expected to feel like this. But I do. Wow.
|
|
|
Post by Timelord007 on Dec 19, 2017 7:50:18 GMT
I had my say, my opinion won't change to me this is lazy filmmaking, typical that Disney & EA in charge of future Star Wars content, there be adding loot boxes to movies next, wanna see Rey Vs Kylo duel in episode 9 that's a additional £5.
I look at this year & see my cousin battling brain cancer, my dad slowly recover from his fall & begin to walk & my constant battles with my bipolar & depression this is what's important family not some p..s poor Star Wars movie, those who liked it great I'm happy you were entertained, just wasn't for me.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 9:55:32 GMT
Simon - I really appreciate the debate, and like I said in my first post, though I'm disagreeing, neither of us are right or wrong, it's all opinions and we love talking movies. Your family will always be more important, of course. Yet we're fans, we love poring over these cultural icons. And we at least agreed on Blade Runner this year. It's not lazy filmaking just because you didn't like it. All the things you're asking for - fan-service reveals of Snoak's identity, Rey being a Skywalker, Luke turning up and taking on squads of AT-ATs... that would be lazy. Giving the fans the same story, feeling like you need to appeal to the internet fan theorists to the detriment of the new story, that would would be lazy. This film is many, many things. Lazy isn't one. Even slightly. It's - for better or worse however you view the film - absolutely bold and a total 180 on what a Star Wars film " should" be. Nothing lazy about that. Nothing safe about that. It's bold and massively exciting from Luke tossing the lightsaber to Snoak's insignificance. It takes your expectations and like Rey, you learn this is not going to end the way you think. And for a film all about Jedis, it was Poe's arc - learning that true leaders are beacons of hope not just the best at killing and blowing stuff up - might be my favourite of the whole saga. He may not be a Jedi, or force-sensitive, but that's the most truly Jedi message anyone learns in these films. I'm really sorry you didn't like it because it's so rich with thematic motifs and character beats that really challenge the audience that I think it's possibly the most rewarding Star Wars film ever made. The best? Maybe. But certainly the most daring. And with the fans 50/50 on it - I suspect it will be debated for a long, long time. And that's good. If the franchise just stayed safe and predictable then a new one would come out and swiftly be forgotten (Bond-itis) - this film's message of hope is that the most corporate of franchises can still be as artistic and as rewarding as an indie film with nothing to lose. I hope Marvel - very much the "safest" franchise going right now - take note.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 10:03:17 GMT
And then, witnessing Laura Dern's sacrifice, he suddenly understands the real meaning of leadership. He realises you can't just blow your troubles up and sometimes running away making sure all your people survive is the closest to victory you can get. It's a glorious arc. Truly comes full circle when it's him who stops Finn from wanting to go out and help Luke, and it's Poe who leads them through the caves to safety running away from the battle. It took the most soldier-y of the characters and turned him into the true heir to Leia through seeing the futility of his actions, the failure of his friends and the sacrifice of who he thought to be a weak leader but realised was the bravest of them all. He even gives the repeated motif of them being the spark that will light the flame that will burn down the First Order. No character has organically learnt and grown so much in one of these films so perfectly. Absolutely wonderful.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2017 10:41:32 GMT
And then, witnessing Laura Dern's sacrifice, he suddenly understands the real meaning of leadership. He realises you can't just blow your troubles up and sometimes running away making sure all your people survive is the closest to victory you can get. It's a glorious arc. Truly comes full circle when it's him who stops Finn from wanting to go out and help Luke, and it's Poe who leads them through the caves to safety running away from the battle. It took the most soldier-y of the characters and turned him into the true heir to Leia through seeing the futility of his actions, the failure of his friends and the sacrifice of who he thought to be a weak leader but realised was the bravest of them all. He even gives the repeated motif of them being the spark that will light the flame that will burn down the First Order. No character has organically learnt and grown so much in one of these films so perfectly. Absolutely wonderful. That was the bit I enjoyed the most, I think. He's a damn fool, but a damn fool that learns from his mistakes and will likely be an ideal successor to Leia's leadership come the next film. I think this film demonstrated more than others why the Rebellion lasted for so long, it was due to the efforts of people like Holdo, Finn and Rose. They aren't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but the lengths they go to for the survival of others is breathtaking. I enjoyed it. Between Space Monte Carlo, the TOS Battlestar Galactica vibe, Luke's island of Myst, Snoke's Emperor Ming motif, the mutiny (and counter-mutiny), the growth of all the characters beyond their TFA ciphers, it was a really enjoyable film. It borrowed plot structure like the previous entry, but came up with a really interesting hybrid: it's The Empire Strikes Back with the latter half of Return of the Jedi bolted onto the end. I did rather like the juxtaposition of Poe and Finn, the character who thinks he's Han Solo and the guy who's actually is Han Solo. The only niggle that really bothered me was Rey's rejection of Kylo Ren in the throne room. The Servalan/Travis thing going on between General Hux and Ren is great, but wouldn't it have made for a much more interesting dynamic with Rey softening Ren's conquest through the galaxy?
|
|