Post by nucleusofswarm on Apr 14, 2018 0:01:26 GMT
I doubt it's controversial to say these are the two weakest stories in the Cartmel Masterplan lineup (S.24 doesn't count for obvious reasons), but which comes out as better? Nazis vs Cybermen, or Space Arthur and Sara back as a witch?
Battlefield. It's a more ambitious story, featuring better characters and ideas. While it has one or two awkward moments (BOOM!, Ace and Shou Youing's argument, 7's speech in the last episode), it doesn't feel as contrived or kitchen-sinky as Silver Nemesis, which doesn't seem sure of what kind of story it wants to tell.
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Silver Nemesis has a frakly dreadful script. The worst thing for me that I find utterly ridiculous and implausible is Ace taking out a whole Cyberman squad with just a catapult! I mean, really??? How are we ever supposed to take them seriously as a major threat again? In the future they are such a serious threat that there are major interstellar wars against Cybermen and yet one teenager with a catapult can take them down that easily. No, no, no - Kevin Clarke obviously thought he was writing for a Cbeebies show aimed at primary school children.
I recall reading a review of the vhs release that said it was like one of those shows where the actors don't have a script and just make it up as they go along. Harsh, but not unfair.
Having said all that, some aspects of it may not be beyond redemption. I'd be keen for BF to bring back Fiona Walker for Peinforte's first encounter with Doctor in an Early Adventure.
Jean Marsh as Morgaine and the notion that Seven might have been chummy with King Arthur are the very last things I actually remember from DW in the Eighties, so I'm sure I'm tremendously biased toward Battlefield.
Last Edit: Apr 14, 2018 12:11:07 GMT by barnabaslives
Silver Nemesis has a frakly dreadful script. The worst thing for me that I find utterly ridiculous and implausible is Ace taking out a whole Cyberman squad with just a catapult! I mean, really??? How are we ever supposed to take them seriously as a major threat again? In the future they are such a serious threat that there are major interstellar wars against Cybermen and yet one teenager with a catapult can take them down that easily. No, no, no - Kevin Clarke obviously thought he was writing for a Cbeebies show aimed at primary school children.
I recall reading a review of the vhs release that said it was like one of those shows where the actors don't have a script and just make it up as they go along. Harsh, but not unfair.
Having said all that, some aspects of it may not be beyond redemption. I'd be keen for BF to bring back Fiona Walker for Peinforte's first encounter with Doctor in an Early Adventure.
The whole thing with the gold weakness was that it clogged their respirator system, which is how the Glittergun worked. The Fifth Doctor defeated the Cyberleader in Earthshock by rubbing Adric's gold edge badge into it's chest unit, even then it took a minute for the Cyberleader to collapse. Unless Ace was aiming for and hitting the chest units of the Cybermen squad, the way she defeats them is inconsistent with the previous applications of the weakness as just mentioned. The gold doesn't have any radioactive effect on them like Kryptonite on Superman.
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Enjoyed both of them. But apart from cyberman getting shot with an arrow nothing really sticks out from Silver Nemesis. While Battlefield has my doctor and unit along with a great part 1 cliffhanger.
I prefer Battlefield. I remember Battlefield being enjoyable enough, it has some really good moments in it. There was a lot I didn't like about Silver Nemesis. The Cybermen in big boots and ski gloves were fairly pathetic, and the dialogue in general was fairly cringe-worthy. So Battlefield wins that er... battle.
I prefer Battlefield. I remember Battlefield being enjoyable enough, it has some really good moments in it. There was a lot I didn't like about Silver Nemesis. The Cybermen in big boots and ski gloves were fairly pathetic, and the dialogue in general was fairly cringe-worthy. So Battlefield wins that er... battle.
It's got two Brigadiers as well.
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Silver Nemesis is Remembrance re trod without a decent supporting cast.
Battlefield is excellent the Doctor might be Merlin, Swords Fights, The Brig's back Kicking Ass, Morganine is complex and even the random death scene in the Pub is played with subtle depth.
Silver Nemesis is all over the place from the moment the caption tells it's November 23rd (that's November in England remember - grey, cold, bleak) over sunny, lush location filming that's clearly late spring and including the on-the-run Nazis is a waste of time in a story that's already too short for what it was trying to do. But I do like Lady Peinforte and Richard. ('You told me you were a hardened criminal!' 'Before I joined your ladyship's service, I was found guilty of many crimes.' 'Then have the courage of your convictions! )
Battlefield is a very good story which could have been a great one. Jean Marsh is superb, Nicholas Courtney IS the Brigadier, the location filming is excellent and we have a fabulous demonic monster, ‘The Destroyer'. And the storyline is excellent: warring techno-magical Arthurian knights from another dimension who were stopped the last time they tried to fight it out by Merlin (of Gallifrey!) What more could a fan want?
But Mordred is far more ‘Blackadder II’ than ‘Henry V’, Bambera is wasted (oh dear the 2CV stunt), I think the music is unsuitable for the 'legendary' atmosphere and why base an interesting story around an alien ‘once and future King’ and then find him boringly dead? And the the tacked-on final section with the Doctor's anti-nuclear speech is embarrassing political campaigning - and was already out of date. (The land-based missiles which had become such a totem for some parts of the British left in the 1980s were already to be destroyed along with their Soviet equivalent missiles under a US-Soviet treaty signed earlier in the year, a major victory for multi-lateral disarmament.) Then Morgaine surrenders and they 'lock her up'. A sorceress who can hop dimensions just like that and they lock her up. That will work won’t it?
On one of the DVD special features, writer Ben Aarononvitch says “‘Battlefield’ is my first failure”. I think it’s much better than that, a good story with its hearts in the right place and probably his same basic story going through the ‘Doctor Who’ production process a decade earlier would have come out as one of the all-time classics.
As it is, it still heralded a strong final season and I enjoy watching it (especially the special DVD omnibus edition), so for me, Battlefield is the easy winner.
Silver Nemesis is all over the place from the moment the caption tells it's November 23rd (that's November in England remember - grey, cold, bleak) over sunny, lush location filming that's clearly late spring and including the on-the-run Nazis is a waste of time in a story that's already too short for what it was trying to do. But I do like Lady Peinforte and Richard. ('You told me you were a hardened criminal!' 'Before I joined your ladyship's service, I was found guilty of many crimes.' 'Then have the courage of your convictions! )
Battlefield is a very good story which could have been a great one. Jean Marsh is superb, Nicholas Courtney IS the Brigadier, the location filming is excellent and we have a fabulous demonic monster, ‘The Destroyer'. And the storyline is excellent: warring techno-magical Arthurian knights from another dimension who were stopped the last time they tried to fight it out by Merlin (of Gallifrey!) What more could a fan want?
But Mordred is far more ‘Blackadder II’ than ‘Henry V’, Bambera is wasted (oh dear the 2CV stunt), I think the music is unsuitable for the 'legendary' atmosphere and why base an interesting story around an alien ‘once and future King’ and then find him boringly dead? And the the tacked-on final section with the Doctor's anti-nuclear speech is embarrassing political campaigning - and was already out of date. (The land-based missiles which had become such a totem for some parts of the British left in the 1980s were already to be destroyed along with their Soviet equivalent missiles under a US-Soviet treaty signed earlier in the year, a major victory for multi-lateral disarmament.) Then Morgaine surrenders and they 'lock her up'. A sorceress who can hop dimensions just like that and they lock her up. That will work won’t it?
On one of the DVD special features, writer Ben Aarononvitch says “‘Battlefield’ is my first failure”. I think it’s much better than that, a good story with its hearts in the right place and probably his same basic story going through the ‘Doctor Who’ production process a decade earlier would have come out as one of the all-time classics.
As it is, it still heralded a strong final season and I enjoy watching it (especially the special DVD omnibus edition), so for me, Battlefield is the easy winner.
Post by J.A. Prentice on Apr 14, 2018 21:01:47 GMT
I genuinely love Battlefield. Is it flawed? Yes. But it's still an amazing story and it suffers from trying to do too much rather than a lack of ambition. If Aaronovitch had been given the time to properly rewrite it into a four-parter or left it as a three-parter, I think it would be remembered as great. I admit I wish he'd stuck with his initial idea of killing off the Brigadier. I can understand why he backed out, but I think the story needed it, especially since he tragically was never used on Doctor Who again. And it might have stopped all the subsequent media from completely ignoring Bambera, who remains criminally underused. Let's also take a moment to acknowledge how utterly this story destroyed what remained of the UNIT timeline's integrity, since the Brig is alive after the queen is dead, even though we later find out he died prior to 2013.
I genuinely love Battlefield. Is it flawed? Yes. But it's still an amazing story and it suffers from trying to do too much rather than a lack of ambition. If Aaronovitch had been given the time to properly rewrite it into a four-parter or left it as a three-parter, I think it would be remembered as great. I admit I wish he'd stuck with his initial idea of killing off the Brigadier. I can understand why he backed out, but I think the story needed it, especially since he tragically was never used on Doctor Who again. And it might have stopped all the subsequent media from completely ignoring Bambera, who remains criminally underused. Let's also take a moment to acknowledge how utterly this story destroyed what remained of the UNIT timeline's integrity, since the Brig is alive after the queen is dead, even though we later find out he died prior to 2013.
Bambera is in the New Adventure Head Games and the Lost Story Animal, but I take your point. She could guest star in a UNIT box set that brings the various stages of UNIT together.
The Brig appears in the Sarah Jane Adventures story Enemy of the Bane.
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I genuinely love Battlefield. Is it flawed? Yes. But it's still an amazing story and it suffers from trying to do too much rather than a lack of ambition. If Aaronovitch had been given the time to properly rewrite it into a four-parter or left it as a three-parter, I think it would be remembered as great. I admit I wish he'd stuck with his initial idea of killing off the Brigadier. I can understand why he backed out, but I think the story needed it, especially since he tragically was never used on Doctor Who again. And it might have stopped all the subsequent media from completely ignoring Bambera, who remains criminally underused. Let's also take a moment to acknowledge how utterly this story destroyed what remained of the UNIT timeline's integrity, since the Brig is alive after the queen is dead, even though we later find out he died prior to 2013.
Bambera is in the New Adventure Head Games and the Lost Story Animal, but I take your point. She could guest star in a UNIT box set that brings the various stages of UNIT together.
The Brig appears in the Sarah Jane Adventures story Enemy of the Bane.
"Completely ignoring" may have been a bit of hyperbole, but two stories isn't very much for a character clearly intended as the new Brigadier. I had forgotten Enemy of the Bane.
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