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Post by dalektimecontroller on Apr 20, 2018 11:51:51 GMT
I've just finished up listening to Doom Coalition again (was hoping to finish before Ravenous was released, but I got a bit behind), and it's had me thinking about gender-swapping regenerations.
Don't get me wrong, I certainly have nothing against the idea, and definitely it brings forward some wonderful casting opportunities. This topic is more from an in-universe point of view, without focusing too much on the behind-the-scenes reasons for the changes.
In recent years, we've had an explosion of gender-changing regenerations. Just to list a few off the top of my head:
Missy (off-screen)
The General (Hell Bent)
The Doctor (Twice Upon a Time)
Constable Pavo/Commander Flail (The Black Hole)
Trave (Gallifrey: Enemy Lines)
Volstrom (The Side of the Angels)
and probably a few others.
In the last few years, it seems to have gone from something that was rare, to something unusual but not unexpected, to the point where it seems just about everyone is doing it.
To me, the show has never in the past made this out to be a very common occurrence. I'm certainly all for a change here and there to mix things up (eg. Missy) or to make a good story (The Black Hole), but some of the changes seem to be thrown in just to be topical (The Side of the Angels) without having any in-universe reason for such a change to occur, and actually standing in the way of established continuity (I've always understood this to be a somewhat rare event).
What are your thoughts? Is every story just jumping on the bandwagon or is the canon just shifting to where this is the norm for regenerations?
(Also, I know this is a bit of a hot topic, so please let's have a civil discussion primarily from an in-universe point-of-view.)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 11:53:32 GMT
I don't think we should open this up. Anytime this topic is opened up, it becomes too contentious.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 12:03:55 GMT
I think there were obvious real world prejudices in the past which led to gender changes not being a common occurrence. At last we are moving to a time where this becomes the norm for regenerations.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 12:05:27 GMT
I think there were obvious real world prejudices in the past which led to gender changes not being a common occurrence. At last we are moving to a time where this becomes the norm for regenerations. I think we should wait for the mods for approval for this thread. Awhile back, we all agreed that this topic was too contentious. |
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Post by dalektimecontroller on Apr 20, 2018 12:05:29 GMT
My intention is not to make a contentious topic and I'll admit I was wary of posting, but I think any decision by the Big Finish creative team should be open to discussion.
Certainly if people aren't interested in getting involved in such a discussion, I understand that. But as Big Finish fans on an (unofficial) Big Finish forum it seemed like the best place to hear others thoughts on the creative decisions behind the series. That's what the forum is for, after all.
EDIT: If there is some sort of unwritten agreement about contentious topics, mods please remove.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 12:06:07 GMT
My intention is not to make a contentious topic and I'll admit I was wary of posting, but I think any decision by the Big Finish creative team should be open to discussion. Certainly if people aren't interested in getting involved in such a discussion, I understand that. But as Big Finish fans on an (unofficial) Big Finish forum it seemed like the best place to hear others thoughts on the creative decisions behind the series. That's what the forum is for, after all. It was decided by the mods and members of this forum. |
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Apr 20, 2018 12:08:49 GMT
I think it's fine. Any weirdness that may come with the influx of sex change regeneration in contrast to there being none before will fade with time, as does with any new aspect introduced into the show/lore.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 12:09:26 GMT
I think there were obvious real world prejudices in the past which led to gender changes not being a common occurrence. At last we are moving to a time where this becomes the norm for regenerations. I think we should wait for the mods for approval for this thread. Awhile back, we all agreed that this topic was too contentious. Are you a mod? If not please don't tell me what to do. If the mods look at this thread & deem that it should be locked I will abide by that decision. |
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Post by omega on Apr 20, 2018 12:14:07 GMT
Time Lords can change their biology through regeneration, so gender roles really aren’t a big deal. One audio has a Time Lord regenerate into an avian form. Look at what a Romana tried on before settling on Lalla Ward. We’ve had female Doctors since The Curse of Fatal Death and Exile (the latter could have done a lot more, or anything really, with the concept).
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Post by sherlock on Apr 20, 2018 12:17:06 GMT
I think it's fine. Some regenerations switch, some don't. It's pretty uncommon for regenerations of other Time Lords to be depicted in stories anyway (only a few examples besides the ones you've listed come to mind).
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Apr 20, 2018 12:23:49 GMT
No.
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Post by omega on Apr 20, 2018 12:25:05 GMT
I think it's fine. Some regenerations switch, some don't. It's pretty uncommon for regenerations of other Time Lords to be depicted in stories anyway (only a few examples besides the ones you've listed come to mind). Besides, for Time Lords where we see multiple incarnations they tend to be the same gender, with the gender flipped incarnation being the token other gender. Missy is the only known female Master, just as the Thirteenth Doctor is the only canon female Doctor thus far. The Monk has yet to have a Nun incarnation, just as Romana and the Rani have been exclusively female so far. Even Rassilon has stayed male in his known forms. The Corsair has only been alluded to. |
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Post by dalektimecontroller on Apr 20, 2018 12:25:36 GMT
I think it's fine. Some regenerations switch, some don't. It's pretty uncommon for regenerations of other Time Lords to be depicted in stories anyway (only a few examples besides the ones you've listed come to mind). Not on screen, but we have seen quite a few different incarnations of the same Time Lords/Ladies throughout the show. I wonder if anyone would ever be game enough to write a story about why in the later years of Gallifrey's history, it's a much more common occurrence. Perhaps the Time Lords became a more progressive society under Romana as president and this became more the norm. Liv does after all comment that Gallifrey comes off a bit "stuffy" in The Crucible of Souls and she's happy to see a woman in a high-up position. Doctor Who has tackled real-life socio-political topics in the past..... Or perhaps Big Finish can just retcon so that this has been a common occurrence forever on Gallifrey (like The Black Hole, a Second Doctor story), we just haven't seen it "on-screen" as much. |
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Post by omega on Apr 20, 2018 12:31:30 GMT
I think it's fine. Some regenerations switch, some don't. It's pretty uncommon for regenerations of other Time Lords to be depicted in stories anyway (only a few examples besides the ones you've listed come to mind). Not on screen, but we have seen quite a few different incarnations of the same Time Lords/Ladies throughout the show. I wonder if anyone would ever be game enough to write a story about why in the later years of Gallifrey's history, it's a much more common occurrence. Perhaps the Time Lords became a more progressive society under Romana as president and this became more the norm. Liv does after all comment that Gallifrey comes off a bit "stuffy" in The Crucible of Souls and she's happy to see a woman in a high-up position. Doctor Who has tackled real-life socio-political topics in the past..... Flavia was the acting president after The Five Doctors and Inquisitor Darkel oversaw the Sixth Doctor’s trial. Gender roles seem not to be an issue or an obstacle in Gallifreyan society. In the audios there’s Time in Office, where more women seem to hold positions of authority than men. Romana’s presidency is contested not on her gender but her radical stance and dirty tricks of her opponents. She’s had to deal with Darkel, Pandora and Livia, all females. |
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Post by dalektimecontroller on Apr 20, 2018 12:34:45 GMT
Not on screen, but we have seen quite a few different incarnations of the same Time Lords/Ladies throughout the show. I wonder if anyone would ever be game enough to write a story about why in the later years of Gallifrey's history, it's a much more common occurrence. Perhaps the Time Lords became a more progressive society under Romana as president and this became more the norm. Liv does after all comment that Gallifrey comes off a bit "stuffy" in The Crucible of Souls and she's happy to see a woman in a high-up position. Doctor Who has tackled real-life socio-political topics in the past..... Flavian was the acting president after The Five Doctors and Inquisitor Darkel oversaw the Sixth Doctor’s trial. Gender roles seem not to be an issue or an obstacle in Gallifreyan society. True, although the majority of Time Lords we see in the Classic Series are male. Thankfully Big Finish and the new TV series have gone some ways to correcting that. |
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Post by sherlock on Apr 20, 2018 12:38:50 GMT
I think it's fine. Some regenerations switch, some don't. It's pretty uncommon for regenerations of other Time Lords to be depicted in stories anyway (only a few examples besides the ones you've listed come to mind). Not on screen, but we have seen quite a few different incarnations of the same Time Lords/Ladies throughout the show. I wonder if anyone would ever be game enough to write a story about why in the later years of Gallifrey's history, it's a much more common occurrence. Perhaps the Time Lords became a more progressive society under Romana as president and this became more the norm. Liv does after all comment that Gallifrey comes off a bit "stuffy" in The Crucible of Souls and she's happy to see a woman in a high-up position. Doctor Who has tackled real-life socio-political topics in the past..... Or perhaps Big Finish can just retcon so that this has been a common occurrence forever on Gallifrey (like The Black Hole, a Second Doctor story), we just haven't seen it "on-screen" as much. On Gallifrey the stuffiness seems more to derive from some snobbery at which House a person is derived from and how inflexible Time Lord society is generally. From what we've seen of her Presidency, Romana was never controversial for her gender but her open-mindedness when it came to Gallifrey's traditional role in the universe. Gallifrey's hasn't been depicted as caring about gender (at least from what I've seen so far), but it certainly does care about maintaining the umpteen traditions of Rassilon, which has led to the stuffy society that the Doctor bailed out on. |
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Post by sherlock on Apr 20, 2018 12:41:06 GMT
I think it's fine. Some regenerations switch, some don't. It's pretty uncommon for regenerations of other Time Lords to be depicted in stories anyway (only a few examples besides the ones you've listed come to mind). Besides, for Time Lords where we see multiple incarnations they tend to be the same gender, with the gender flipped incarnation being the token other gender. Missy is the only known female Master, just as the Thirteenth Doctor is the only canon female Doctor thus far. The Monk has yet to have a Nun incarnation, just as Romana and the Rani have been exclusively female so far. Even Rassilon has stayed male in his known forms. The Corsair has only been alluded to. Presumably Time Lords try and consciously influence the process to try to maintain some consistency, for instance Borusa's incarnations all appear quite similar. Some Time Lords are better at it than others. |
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Post by omega on Apr 20, 2018 12:42:53 GMT
Not on screen, but we have seen quite a few different incarnations of the same Time Lords/Ladies throughout the show. I wonder if anyone would ever be game enough to write a story about why in the later years of Gallifrey's history, it's a much more common occurrence. Perhaps the Time Lords became a more progressive society under Romana as president and this became more the norm. Liv does after all comment that Gallifrey comes off a bit "stuffy" in The Crucible of Souls and she's happy to see a woman in a high-up position. Doctor Who has tackled real-life socio-political topics in the past..... Or perhaps Big Finish can just retcon so that this has been a common occurrence forever on Gallifrey (like The Black Hole, a Second Doctor story), we just haven't seen it "on-screen" as much. On Gallifrey the stuffiness seems more to derive from some snobbery at which House a person is derived from and how inflexible Time Lord society is generally. From what we've seen of her Presidency, Romana was never controversial for her gender but her open-mindedness when it came to Gallifrey's traditional role in the universe. Gallifrey's hasn't been depicted as caring about gender (at least from what I've seen so far), but it certainly does care about maintaining the umpteen traditions of Rassilon, which has led to the stuffy society that the Doctor bailed out on. Romana comes from the house of Heartshaven, which appears to be lower down the social pecking order. It’s mentioned a few times, usually in a snide manner and by Series 3 of Gallifrey has been left abandoned to the vermin. |
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Post by omega on Apr 20, 2018 12:45:25 GMT
Besides, for Time Lords where we see multiple incarnations they tend to be the same gender, with the gender flipped incarnation being the token other gender. Missy is the only known female Master, just as the Thirteenth Doctor is the only canon female Doctor thus far. The Monk has yet to have a Nun incarnation, just as Romana and the Rani have been exclusively female so far. Even Rassilon has stayed male in his known forms. The Corsair has only been alluded to. Presumably Time Lords try and consciously influence the process to try to maintain some consistency, for instance Borusa's incarnations all appear quite similar. Some Time Lords are better at it than others. Romana was able to start with Astra and try on a few other forms before the Doctor relented and stopped trying to convince her that Lalla Ward was akin to bodysnatching. |
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Apr 20, 2018 13:40:04 GMT
I have no problem with the real-world concept or the in-universe logic of a gender-swapping regeneration, but I do think the OP has a valid point insofar as fans like to try to reconcile everything into a logical consistency and all the onscreen evidence to date points to gender swapping regenerations being the exception rather than the norm
- The vast majority of regenerations we have seen to date have not been gender swapping (no doubt someone somewhere has counted them all and worked out the exact %, but I'd guess 10% at the very most)
- In Hell Bent, didn't the general make some comment after the onscreen regeneration to the effect that she was back to being a female and implied had only been male once
- Even within BF's Trouble with Drax, there is one female Drax and a lot more male Draxes and in the Black Hole the Doctor's comment on the gender swap is something like "Oh my, that is unusual"
So, based purely on what we have seen/read/heard to date, I would guess that somewhere between 1 in 10 and 1 in 20 regenerations involve a gender swap.
Having said that if there was to be an in-universe explanation for the increasing prevalence of gender swapping regenerations, e.g. some kind of evolution in Time Lord biology or other cause, then I'd be fine with it.
What would annoy me is if a "tick box" mentality developed and it because an unofficial project to show that every Time Lord we had ever encountered had had at least one gender swapping regeneration for no other reason than so that this particular box can be ticked.
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