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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 6:24:59 GMT
Did Steven Moffatt stay on for too long?
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 6:39:28 GMT
I would say yes but i loved the capaldi era. I mean after series 6 and 7 i was ready for him to go but from series 8 onwards i started enjoying it a lot more, tho what i put down to moffat being the cause of that i dont know. I think for doctor who as a mass appealing show, Moffat shouldnt have stayed this long and leaving with matt would have been the best thing in an ideal world. Even with things like a new doctor or his supposed soft reboot in series 10 it still felt Moffat-y. Which is great and fine if u like his style (im quite a fan myself..when its done good anyways ) but if u dont like it, which i get the impression people didnt or at least were bored of it by the end of his run, i think it really became a detriment to the show. But hopefully with Jodie as the doctor, Bradley Walsh as a companion and chris aa the head writer, hopefully the show will be popular as it was in david era (and too an extent, matts era too)
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 6:53:32 GMT
No.
RTD & Tennant did.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 9:02:04 GMT
I would say yes but i loved the capaldi era. I mean after series 6 and 7 i was ready for him to go but from series 8 onwards i started enjoying it a lot more, tho what i put down to moffat being the cause of that i dont know. I think for doctor who as a mass appealing show, Moffat shouldnt have stayed this long and leaving with matt would have been the best thing in an ideal world. Even with things like a new doctor or his supposed soft reboot in series 10 it still felt Moffat-y. Which is great and fine if u like his style (im quite a fan myself..when its done good anyways ) but if u dont like it, which i get the impression people didnt or at least were bored of it by the end of his run, i think it really became a detriment to the show. But hopefully with Jodie as the doctor, Bradley Walsh as a companion and chris aa the head writer, hopefully the show will be popular as it was in david era (and too an extent, matts era too) (Sorry, going to be a bit TL;DR. Fair warning.) Ditto. It's really difficult to definitively say yes or no with TV being a collaborative medium and all. Back in the 1980s, the show might have done really well under a new producer come 1985 or 1987. JNT out, a new fellow in, and yet Season 26 ends up being one of the most compelling production blocks in the show's history. It's really damn good. And there's no guarantee that the new producer wouldn't have suffered the same hiatus/cancellation fate. Same is kind of true of the Moffat era. I think it starts off really well in Series 5, stumbles halfway through Series 6, an even couple years before finally regaining a solid foundation in Series 10. Part of the problem feels internal and part of it is external. Internally, his stuff on Who is a really curious clash of styles. He does small, intimate stories very well (I remember thinking that he could do a great tale about two people talking in a room together for 45-minutes and then "The Witch's Familiar" appeared), but stumbles on the broad ideas. Things where you're told "Don't look at it too hard," with a wink and you're in the audience with a concerned frown, thinking: I wasn't looking at all really, but, ah... I can still see it. He's not a one-trick pony, that'd be disingenuous, but there are Stephen King-esque narrative problems that I think -- I'm not sure, but I think -- they're due to rattling out stories one immediately after the other (just like King). I think he just got tired. Happens to everyone. The rest before Mysterio was a good idea and it did the show a wonderful service. Even with the same old magic act, everything feels wonderfully new come The Pilot (Twelve, Bill, Nardole, the I.M. Forman-like connection to the university, Rochester keeping the mad woman in the basement, etc.). Externally, the show was starting to grind its gears against what had been established in the RTD era. It's a fantastic basis for a formula, the show wouldn't have lasted without it, but ten years on... That's the difference between The Aztecs and The Green Death. "Mysterious woman linked to strange phenomena" as a story arc really needed to be put to bed and something else to replace it. It got to the point where people forgot that under gimmicks like the sunglasses or fez was a completely fleshed out character (although, I still want to hear Eleven say: "We're creating a democracy. Democracies are cool." ). For a long time, they became ciphers of goofiness (Eleven) or rage (Twelve) with no real subtlety. It's why I love the Johnny Morris and Scott Gray comics of these two incarnations so much, they remembered that these could be fully-formed characters. Internally and externally, the era eventually fell hard on moving forward . Characters that had either died or been given fond farewells were brought back and kept around, only to go again... And then, be brought back. From what I've gleaned chatting with people about the show, it was starting to show how tired it was. Those who weren't dedicated viewers wanted to move onto other things, like, interestingly... Sherlock which Moffat was writing and producing for at the time. The man ended up being his own best/worst competitor and I think he probably got very tired doing two shows at once. All of this is just opinion (and the hypothetical solution is a catch-22), but I think it might have been a stronger run overall on Who, if he been able to bow out of Sherlock. *shrugs*
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Post by thethirddoctor on May 25, 2018 9:51:27 GMT
Will you please stop with the Moffat bashing.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 10:07:29 GMT
Will you please stop with the Moffat bashing. Huh? Are you talking to me or someone else?
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Post by thethirddoctor on May 25, 2018 10:30:35 GMT
Will you please stop with the Moffat bashing. Huh? Are you talking to me or someone else? Everyone. He's been and gone. We have suffered enough of the Moff hate.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 10:40:08 GMT
Huh? Are you talking to me or someone else? Everyone. He's been and gone. We have suffered enough of the Moff hate. Yep. Yep, we have. Unfortunately, I think it's one of those cycles that fandoms go through with producers. RTD was the same, JNT was the same, Williams was the same, Hinchcliffe was the same, etc. I think it'll blow over eventually and people will end up with much less intense views. It's the way it always happens. Just a bit of time is needed. I think in this case, though, I think it was just a passive, scientific question. An after-action report of sorts. Even those of us with reservations admit we found something to enjoy. Series 10 was the highlight of the New Series for me, everything was working. It was wonderful. We try to be evenhanded with our opinions and find something to enjoy. After all, that's why we're here because we find it fun.
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Post by thethirddoctor on May 25, 2018 11:04:18 GMT
Everyone. He's been and gone. We have suffered enough of the Moff hate. Yep. Yep, we have. Unfortunately, I think it's one of those cycles that fandoms go through with producers. RTD was the same, JNT was the same, Williams was the same, Hinchcliffe was the same, etc. I think it'll blow over eventually and people will end up with much less intense views. It's the way it always happens. Just a bit of time is needed. I think in this case, though, I think it was just a passive, scientific question. An after-action report of sorts. Even those of us with reservations admit we found something to enjoy. Series 10 was the highlight of the New Series for me, everything was working. It was wonderful. We try to be evenhanded with our opinions and find something to enjoy. After all, that's why we're here because we find it fun. Personally, I prefer the Producer to leave with his first (and only Doctor).
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Post by fitzoliverj on May 25, 2018 16:45:06 GMT
Yes, but it's quite clear that he didn't have much choice. From remarks he made at various times there's reason to think he was trying to draw his time to a close but for some reason didn't go - probably that there wasn't anybody suitable to take over.
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Post by barnabaslives on May 25, 2018 19:23:55 GMT
I don't think Moffat overstayed his welcome. I'm very glad he stuck around for this past season quite frankly, both for how much I enjoyed it and for how happy I am for him for being able to end on what I think of as such a high note. I do think his ideas about what the show should be probably became a little diffused earlier on (things were similar with RTD in my opinion), and there seemed to be a recurring tendency to gloss over some of the smaller things with more bombastic things, but what can you really say about that? I think maybe at worst that's a bit like a magician saying "Look over here, don't look over there" - just because there's a bit of sleight-of-hand at work doesn't mean someone isn't putting on a fine show.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on May 25, 2018 20:39:22 GMT
If you didn't enjoy the stories, then yeah maybe he did stick around too long. If you enjoyed the stories then you could say no he didn't. There is no right or wrong answer to the question, just one person's subjective opinion.
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Post by thethirddoctor on May 26, 2018 12:25:12 GMT
If you didn't enjoy the stories, then yeah maybe he did stick around too long. If you enjoyed the stories then you could say no he didn't. There is no right or wrong answer to the question, just one person's subjective opinion. Well, there is also the drop in ratings.
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Post by shutupbanks on May 26, 2018 16:21:24 GMT
If you didn't enjoy the stories, then yeah maybe he did stick around too long. If you enjoyed the stories then you could say no he didn't. There is no right or wrong answer to the question, just one person's subjective opinion. Well, there is also the drop in ratings. The ratings that are still higher than the last four years of the classic run? When it had a stable timeslot that people could return to every week rather than having it jump around the evening all season?
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2018 16:45:14 GMT
I have never understood the harsh feelings for Moffatt - he was the best person for the Job and stayed on as did JNT for want of an obvious replacement. I recall it being said by Script Editors of classic who that even the best writers would dry up of 'who' story ideas if used too much. Steven Moffatt had a wealth of great ideas and creative story arcs throughout his run, but the criticism, of some plot lines not standing up to too close a scrutiny, may be down to the sheer volume of scripts he delivered whilst being show runner/executive producer.
I think that if he had delegated more scripts to newer writers and kept an executive writers position, book ending series, this critique may have been avoided. So, no, i don't feel he outstayed his welcome at all - I don't have that level of creativity - I am a passive consumer. As such I agree with Moffatt when he said that he kept clear of reading online what was said of him. Ratings etc I feel owe more to scheduling. What he has given us is perhaps the most cinematic in scope production the series has ever enjoyed. His is not my favourite era, but i think most of us owe him some commendation for sustaining the series after the RTD & David Tennant high point in a way the classic series never really managed after the run of Jon Pertwee and Tom Baker in the 70's.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2018 17:46:42 GMT
Considering the fact that he stayed in the job for 2 more years than he wanted to, I reckon he did pretty well.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2018 17:58:02 GMT
If he hadn't stayed on to produce series 10, we wouldn't have met Bill or Nardole, or been treated to the best Cybermen story ever (in my opinion, of course). We wouldn't have had, in the cliffhanger to 'World Enough and Time', an edge-of-seat moment to rival RTD's 'You Are Not Alone' stinger from 'Utopia' (or was it 'Gridlock?').
I think the ratings indicate the public were tiring of Moffat's approach to Who, which is a shame, but since when have ratings been an indicator of quality?
No, I don't think Steven Moffat stayed too long.
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Post by thethirddoctor on May 26, 2018 21:43:42 GMT
Well, there is also the drop in ratings. The ratings that are still higher than the last four years of the classic run? When it had a stable timeslot that people could return to every week rather than having it jump around the evening all season? Yeah, let's change the subject. Lol
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Post by shutupbanks on May 27, 2018 2:44:59 GMT
The ratings that are still higher than the last four years of the classic run? When it had a stable timeslot that people could return to every week rather than having it jump around the evening all season? Yeah, let's change the subject. Lol Mate, you mentioned the ratings. I was putting things into perspective and offering an explanation for the drop in ratings. Personally, I think that every project Mr Moffat has worked on has suffered from him being in control over a long period of time (eg the last two seasons of Press Gang, the final series of Coupling) but I think the unevenness of seasons 6 and 8 - 5, 7, 9 and 10 were, IMNSHO, as good as Who gets, despite a couple of individual episodes being a bit below par - can be put down to Sherlock-induced fatigue as well. so, no, I don't believe he was on for too long.
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Post by Ela on May 27, 2018 18:59:45 GMT
No, I don't think Moffat stayed on too long.
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