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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 23, 2018 0:15:19 GMT
(DISCLAIMER: This is not a thread for debating the merits and issues of organized religion, or to trounce or demean anyone's personal beliefs.)
So, standard procedure in Who has been if it's an god, it's an alien or other dimensional being (Sutkeh, Azal, Cronos, Omega to some degree). However, some stories do suggest a 'higher power' may not necessarily be the result of total imposters and, perhaps, there are bigger mysteries (even 2 makes a reference in Three Doctors). Does anyone have an thought of where this would leave the Judeo-Christian (and, to a degree Islamic, given the relation) God?
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Post by Ela on Jun 23, 2018 0:32:36 GMT
There’s actually no such thing as Judeo-Christian.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 1:30:25 GMT
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 23, 2018 9:31:47 GMT
There’s actually no such thing as Judeo-Christian. What daver said.
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Post by thethirddoctor on Jun 23, 2018 10:01:06 GMT
Gods in DW are fine. Its been done successfully on The Aztecs and The Face of Evil. I did not like the Jesus on the cross reference in Voyage of the Damned.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Jun 23, 2018 10:11:03 GMT
Anything supernatural doesn’t have a place in Who, but explorations of faith? That does deserve to be explored. There’s a line from an old Who book, Victoria reflecting on the Doctor’s curiosity beingbthat on the day he meets the Almighty, he’ll pull on His beard to make sure it’s genuine.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jun 23, 2018 13:11:36 GMT
This is where the Eternals come into things as well and especially beings like Death from the VNA period
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 16:02:30 GMT
One that comes to mind is the Great Intelligence in the Abominable Snowmen. The manipulation of faith by a controlling influence exploiting beliefs. The use of the monastery isolated in the Himalayas makes a sinister setting, subverting the inner contemplation of the monks peaceful retreat. The means by which religion can be used as a means of control is also explored in the Blake's 7 episode Cygnus Alpha, whilst strictly a Cult, the themes of maintaining a primitive society through religious faith and dependence is also examined. Such writing is indicative of the perspectives of the Agnotic, Atheist sentiments of the scriptwriters, but irrespective of ones beliefs, one can appreciate the way in which Religious faith has been exploited, both in Europe during the Middle Ages, and today, in Middle East countries, as a form of all encompassing societal diktat.
One can even see the influence of Religion in the near mythical reverence towards first Omega, then Rassilon, in Time Lord history, as creators of their Civilisation, in the Classic Series. Later on they are exposed as mere beings, and flawed ones too, but their reputation as distant Icons, are arguably reminiscent of the great Prophets.
Please feel free to discuss/argue - some interpretation is more interesting than simply spotting the references in Who stories, surely? There is inevitably a good deal of influence in writers inspiration, of the impact of religion within developing and civilised societies.
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Post by jasonward on Jun 23, 2018 17:47:45 GMT
I don't see how this question can be answered. I mean I can answer it for me, I have a preference, but I'm sure others will hold different opinions. I don't want religion in Who, but then I'm anti religion generally in life so no surprise there. On the other hand, some religious elements and themes have been dealt with in the past and I'm sure they will be again, and frankly it didn't do any harm, so meh.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 18:13:38 GMT
(DISCLAIMER: This is not a thread for debating the merits and issues of organized religion, or to trounce or demean anyone's personal beliefs.)
So, standard procedure in Who has been if it's an god, it's an alien or other dimensional being (Sutkeh, Azal, Cronos, Omega to some degree). However, some stories do suggest a 'higher power' may not necessarily be the result of total imposters and, perhaps, there are bigger mysteries (even 2 makes a reference in Three Doctors). Does anyone have an thought of where this would leave the Judeo-Christian (and, to a degree Islamic, given the relation) God?
Not sure what you really mean but where would it leave the Judeo-Christian God. In the same place as the others I imagine. They are all the same, invented deities.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 18:18:38 GMT
Like Jason I don't want too much religion in Doctor Who, as it's all mumbo jumbo as far as I am concerned. But the bits we do get are okay if kept to a minimum.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 18:53:48 GMT
I personally fully respect others beliefs and do not seek to disprove or denigrate what is an integral aspect of what guides them.
It cannot be circumvented, the fact that wherever humans have developed civilisations, from the South Americas, Europe, Asia, Australasia, peoples have developed remarkably similar religious beliefs, with congruent outcomes.
We can joke as did Douglas Adams and Rob Grant/Doug Naylor about Religion being mans attempt to understand the weather, or the discovered opening page of the Bible ("to my darling Candy, this is a work of fiction, all resemblance to actual persons, etc) but that is what has formed societies, for better or worse. We may not share such beliefs, enlightened as we are, but cannot deny that in some measure we are a product of such beliefs, through our ancestors, and history. The corruption of such ideals, through human nature and the desire for power, is as much an aspect of religion as the pure faith of the individual.
Intelligent writers of Who recognise that such things give characters and worlds a depth that we can relate to. Without such elements, I feel that too many alien worlds and past civilisations would have all the depth and superficiality of a World Distributors Annual short story.
This is why I feel that an exploration of Religion holds relevance in Doctor Who, without the need to take sides, or offend those who have faith.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 19:39:08 GMT
Faith is definitely something which should be explored in Doctor Who. A specific religion, however, never should be unless it is in passing. It's not the job of the show to say if religion is good or not, nor be any kind of authority on a construct that can be very beneficial to many people. So no, no stories where Jesus is a Slitheen or K9 hangs out with Mohammed, but stories such as The Curse of Fenric where faith is the central theme would be most welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2018 23:49:25 GMT
Honestly, for me, other then respectfully opening the box of ideas and the occasional nod here or there, none. It's not really within the scope of the series - The Doctor's imperfect attempts to do good and be kind in the dark cold and uncaring dark universe.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 1:03:35 GMT
Isn't The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit the definitive take on the subject moving forward?
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Post by Ela on Jun 24, 2018 4:13:18 GMT
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jun 24, 2018 10:04:06 GMT
Isn't The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit the definitive take on the subject moving forward? Did it make a reference to God? I can't remember.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 10:50:31 GMT
Isn't The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit the definitive take on the subject moving forward? Did it make a reference to God? I can't remember. It basically debunked Satan. But having a monster that is practically Satan isn't exactly a unique idea, and the majority of people in the UK don't believe in Hell anymore anyway from the looks of things, so doing a monster like The Beast isn't really infringing on anyone's beliefs. Although it has to be said, there can't actually be a definitive take on anything in Doctor Who, someone will come and contradict it at some point later anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2018 10:53:56 GMT
It's heavily implied that The Creature is The Devil and The Bearers of Light were angels (presumably lead by God(s)), but it's left open to intepretation. I don't think you can really poke further then that moving forward in the TV series.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Jun 24, 2018 15:14:13 GMT
God (capital G) defined in monotheistic terms as the single supreme omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent Being who created all things and will judge all things does not exist in the fictional Whoniverse.
Gods (small g) do exist in the Whoniverse as beings who appear godlike to those lower down the evolutionary scale.
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