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Post by Timelord007 on Aug 27, 2018 7:59:46 GMT
All we want is dramatic storytelling at the end of the day, i have been very cynical of the upcoming series but haven't gone on a hate trolling spree which sadly many so called fans have done To be fair, when Jodie was announced you posted that you put your fist through the shed wall, were going to get rid of your Who DVDs and said the people who supported Jodie were "PC fanboys who could go to hell". I wouldn't be throwing too many stones in the glass house when you were posting things like that online yourself. That was my bipolar reaction, not a rational one, i did put my fist through the shed wall & i was going to disassociate being a fan, sadly that is the curse of bipolar irrational erratic reactions to change & is a illness i hope you never have to experience (i did exactly the same with Missy being The Master) as you can see i am slowly beginning to come around to the idea. And to make it clear i didn't post hateful comments to anyone or go around posting vile posts about Jodie online, I've been a victim of trolling with my Iron Man 3 review & witnessed first hand the vile hate fanboys churn out so there's no way i would personally attack a individual person i was just ranting at fandom in general. Look was i happy at the announcement No, did i overreact at her casting, yes, did i personally attack anyone or single a individual out? No. As for PC fanboys well they can always go to hell, Marvel & DC fans, online gamers especially do my nut l mean just look at how Ruby Rose has been trolled by fandom over her casting as Batwoman, shocking & uncalled for.
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Post by MayoTango131 on Sept 5, 2018 15:18:37 GMT
The real problem is that the nostalgia can become so toxic, I realized when I found out that there are people who stopped watching the series when Rose Tyler left the series, not to mention the constant cries of "Bring back Tennant" . Even Big Finish was infected by that, do you remember when the audio stories used to be so original and creative when Gary Russell was in charge?
In my old days one criticized something at the time when it was seen on screen, not like now that most fandom are like spoiled kids on YouTube that complain about something without even seeing it or because the series does not please them with another return of Rose, not to mention the idiots who follow them like sheep and who severely criticize the Moffat era without even seeing it. They missed Series 10, the best of Capaldi, only because they heard that their companion was a black lesbian.
I know what will happen: First they will hate Chibnall and Jodie, and by the time the end comes, those same hypocrites will say that that was the golden age of the series and they will prepare to hate the next showrunner and the new Doctor. Pathetic all of them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 16:06:30 GMT
I know what will happen: First they will hate Chibnall and Jodie, and by the time the end comes, those same hypocrites will say that that was the golden age of the series and they will prepare to hate the next showrunner and the new Doctor. Pathetic all of them. The default response since the first regeneration.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Sept 5, 2018 19:54:23 GMT
It's never been the same since Peter Cushing left tbh.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 20:39:52 GMT
It's never been the same since Peter Cushing left tbh. ... and we never even got to see his regeneration either!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2018 21:10:30 GMT
It's never been the same since Peter Cushing left tbh. ... and we never even got to see his regeneration either! He regenerated into David Warner.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 1, 2020 2:10:59 GMT
Well, this one's been dormant for a while, eh?
Now, this is something I kicked around pretty much since S12 started. I've scaled back a lot on talking about the industry side of things (other than posting up 28 days figs, I haven't talked ratings much), and kept mostly-mum about the outrage merchants. Seeing as tomorrow we'll be swamped with whatever happens in Timeless Children, and then seeing what surfaces about Series 13 for the next year, this will probably be the last chance to talk about this particular element.
So, a while back, MrTARDIS/Will Carlise posted up a big thread about what he had seen of the image of fandom, how the negativity may have hurt the show's ability to grow an audience between series, and then capping off by bringing up the industry side and how some people were becoming wary of working on or mentioning they worked on the show, for fear of online harassement (including an actor friend of his, who was in S11 and recieved abuse for it).
It went a bit viral. Among the people who liked the thread included Malorie Blackman, Debbie Moon (creator of CBBC megahit Wolfblood and Who fan) and Lisa Holdsworth (long career with too many credits, but she most recently worked on the McTighe showrun Discovery of Witches and, more importantly, is the Chair for the Writers Guild. Basically, this woman is at the centre of writer issues and concerns). People of this stature endorsing a thread that indicates that the NotMyDoctor-type set of toxic anti-fans have more notoriety and, even, power to intimidate both the casual audience as well as people working in the industry is troubling. Of course, for the former, Will acknowledges it's not just this bunch that are responsible for the reduced figures, but it's the latter that worries me. We already know from the Moffat to Chibnall handover how hard it was to find a new showrunner, because of the show's then existing-rep - if people further down the industry are having second thoughts about working on the series because of this particular subset of fandom's nastier reputation, that's only compounding the former challenge. (As an aside, while I don't believe this is why, it may also add something to the observation that, other than McTighe and Blackman, Chibbs' writing teams have been more heavily composed of more junior or writers with smaller bodies of work, compared to RTD or Moffat's more high-profile teams).
When you combine that with how fast, and how eager even, lies of Chibnall abandoning the show and leaving it and Jodie in chaos a few months back was recieved, spread and straight-up believed as definite fact, it doesn't paint a nice picture. Same with this lot throwing a fit over Piers Wenger announcing continued support for the show. This lot are a minority of a minority, and their grand plan to fire Jodie by selling dvds and making long-winded videos have failed constantly, but they may be finding ways to nibble at the edges and undermine the show in other, and arguably more damaging, ways. Smear the creative team; dominate searches and media platforms so consensus appears more negative; create an illusion of greater vocality to the industry. In turn, constructive criticism of S11 and S12 is always hamstrung by this lot and breaks any dialogue between fans and creators.
Now, I'm not trying to scare anyone here, or overstate this particular thing (correlation not causationa and all that), but it does only further ensure that any retrospective look at 13's era, like say a documentary 20-30 years from now, is basically giving these goobs a type of pseudo-immortality and place in franchise history, because you can't do an honest look at her era and not see how a sector of fandom became weaponized (as well as financially profitable to always be angry, unlike the forum days) and wouldn't let go. After all, they found the one guy who was still mad at Deadly Assassin 40 years on for the dvd doc - what will happen here?
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Post by relativetime on Mar 1, 2020 4:24:46 GMT
Well, this one's been dormant for a while, eh? Now, this is something I kicked around pretty much since S12 started. I've scaled back a lot on talking about the industry side of things (other than posting up 28 days figs, I haven't talked ratings much), and kept mostly-mum about the outrage merchants. Seeing as tomorrow we'll be swamped with whatever happens in Timeless Children, and then seeing what surfaces about Series 13 for the next year, this will probably be the last chance to talk about this particular element. So, a while back, MrTARDIS/Will Carlise posted up a big thread about what he had seen of the image of fandom, how the negativity may have hurt the show's ability to grow an audience between series, and then capping off by bringing up the industry side and how some people were becoming wary of working on or mentioning they worked on the show, for fear of online harassement (including an actor friend of his, who was in S11 and recieved abuse for it). It went a bit viral. Among the people who liked the thread included Malorie Blackman, Debbie Moon (creator of CBBC megahit Wolfblood and Who fan) and Lisa Holdsworth (long career with too many credits, but she most recently worked on the McTighe showrun Discovery of Witches and, more importantly, is the Chair for the Writers Guild. Basically, this woman is at the centre of writer issues and concerns). People of this stature endorsing a thread that indicates that the NotMyDoctor-type set of toxic anti-fans have more notoriety and, even, power to intimidate both the casual audience as well as people working in the industry is troubling. Of course, for the former, Will acknowledges it's not just this bunch that are responsible for the reduced figures, but it's the latter that worries me. We already know from the Moffat to Chibnall handover how hard it was to find a new showrunner, because of the show's then existing-rep - if people further down the industry are having second thoughts about working on the series because of this particular subset of fandom's nastier reputation, that's only compounding the former challenge. (As an aside, while I don't believe this is why, it may also add something to the observation that, other than McTighe and Blackman, Chibbs' writing teams have been more heavily composed of more junior or writers with smaller bodies of work, compared to RTD or Moffat's more high-profile teams). When you combine that with how fast, and how eager even, lies of Chibnall abandoning the show and leaving it and Jodie in chaos a few months back was recieved, spread and straight-up believed as definite fact, it doesn't paint a nice picture. Same with this lot throwing a fit over Piers Wenger announcing continued support for the show. This lot are a minority of a minority, and their grand plan to fire Jodie by selling dvds and making long-winded videos have failed constantly, but they may be finding ways to nibble at the edges and undermine the show in other, and arguably more damaging, ways. Smear the creative team; dominate searches and media platforms so consensus appears more negative; create an illusion of greater vocality to the industry. In turn, constructive criticism of S11 and S12 is always hamstrung by this lot and breaks any dialogue between fans and creators. Now, I'm not trying to scare anyone here, or overstate this particular thing (correlation not causationa and all that), but it does only further ensure that any retrospective look at 13's era, like say a documentary 20-30 years from now, is basically giving these goobs a type of pseudo-immortality and place in franchise history, because you can't do an honest look at her era and not see how a sector of fandom became weaponized (as well as financially profitable to always be angry, unlike the forum days) and wouldn't let go. After all, they found the one guy who was still mad at Deadly Assassin 40 years on for the dvd doc - what will happen here? Generally this really is an issue for any creative outlet that even DARES to support anyone who might CONCEIVABLY come from a marginalized group or hold views that might be construed as progressive or liberal. As MrTARDIS mentioned, we saw this with Ghostbusters, but we also saw a similar, if not greater, level of absolute repulsiveness in the Star Wars fanbase and with Captain Marvel and many, many other movies I could spend all day typing. Some of this stuff is generally really easy to fix I think. Social media sites need to do a much better job cracking down on people who use their sites to dox and harass actors or other people involved with the show/movie in question and they should make it harder for people to use bots or fake accounts to hide behind when they do it. I'm not sure what entirely all these methods would look like, but it seems reasonable to me that there's some approach that hasn't been taken yet that would address this issue. I don't think there's much you can really do about people just whining about a show including people who aren't straight white men, but I think what's important is removing their ability to intimidate other people and setting clear consequences for those who do engage in hateful behavior online.
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Post by Whovitt on Mar 1, 2020 4:37:39 GMT
I generally don't look at the fandom outside of this forum. All I ever hear about other places is how much everybody seems to hate everything that the show has done these past few years, and I've got better things to do than listen to people hating on something for the sake of it. Having said that, I was just now recommended a post by the BBC on YouTube (turns out you can post messages on it... who knew?) and I thought I'd give it a look. All it said was "Two days until the emotional Doctor Who Series 12 finale. "This is going to hurt. Brace yourself."" Then I scrolled down to the comments to find endless lists of people hating on the show, the actors, the writing, the characters... Why can't people find something more meaningful to do with their lives than this? All they are doing is ruining the fun for everyone else
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 6:23:42 GMT
I generally don't look at the fandom outside of this forum. All I ever hear about other places is how much everybody seems to hate everything that the show has done these past few years, and I've got better things to do than listen to people hating on something for the sake of it. Having said that, I was just now recommended a post by the BBC on YouTube (turns out you can post messages on it... who knew?) and I thought I'd give it a look. All it said was "Two days until the emotional Doctor Who Series 12 finale. "This is going to hurt. Brace yourself."" Then I scrolled down to the comments to find endless lists of people hating on the show, the actors, the writing, the characters... Why can't people find something more meaningful to do with their lives than this? All they are doing is ruining the fun for everyone else It's a shame that the dissatisfaction rarely evolves beyond a word salad. There are some really quite magical things that can come from turning those feelings on their head. For instance, the story goes that Steve Parkhouse allegedly dissatisfied with what was being done on television with the Fifth Doctor during his comics run. Rather than write that into his stories, he went in a completely different direction. He brought us Stockbridge, Rassilon, Max, Shayde, lost mountains, old foes and fallen companions. He turned that into something constructive. Built on it. Hell, if we really think about it, one of Big Finish's touchstones was: But what if they'd had more? The rehabilitation of the Sixth Doctor, the work they've done with Adric and so on; it's all come from that same impulse to create something.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 1, 2020 11:36:25 GMT
I generally don't look at the fandom outside of this forum. All I ever hear about other places is how much everybody seems to hate everything that the show has done these past few years, and I've got better things to do than listen to people hating on something for the sake of it. Having said that, I was just now recommended a post by the BBC on YouTube (turns out you can post messages on it... who knew?) and I thought I'd give it a look. All it said was "Two days until the emotional Doctor Who Series 12 finale. "This is going to hurt. Brace yourself."" Then I scrolled down to the comments to find endless lists of people hating on the show, the actors, the writing, the characters... Why can't people find something more meaningful to do with their lives than this? All they are doing is ruining the fun for everyone else It's a shame that the dissatisfaction rarely evolves beyond a word salad. There are some really quite magical things that can come from turning those feelings on their head. For instance, the story goes that Steve Parkhouse allegedly dissatisfied with what was being done on television with the Fifth Doctor during his comics run. Rather than write that into his stories, he went in a completely different direction. He brought us Stockbridge, Rassilon, Max, Shayde, lost mountains, old foes and fallen companions. He turned that into something constructive. Built on it. Hell, if we really think about it, one of Big Finish's touchstones was: But what if they'd had more? The rehabilitation of the Sixth Doctor, the work they've done with Adric and so on; it's all come from that same impulse to create something. Always great historical context.
However, it does point out a critical difference: the drive. Those guys created out of genuine affection for the franchise's power and potential. The outrage set (might as well just name: bowlestrek, nerdrotic, clownfish, alteori, mecharandom and more) are either doing this for quick profit off of insecure nerds who've become entrenched in a media vicious cycle where the consumption IS their entire identitiy, or more charitably, they are fans with a superficial and uncritical view of the franchise. They're media illiterate, for all the bloat of their videos, and allow colloquial definitions of say, politics (the binary left/right, rep/dem/ con/labour, as opposed to simply a way to describe a system or way of doing things) to inform their critique in damaging ways, because they've never had to live outside their narrow frame of life experience. Rosa and Demons are so abhorrent to them because they can't, or won't, empathise with another experience.
This also all ties into an issue which, really, has been a problem since the internet arose: the breakdown of the barrier between fandom/consumers and the industry. It's not exclusive to this lot, but their talk of crashing ratings or the supposed evils of 'diversity quotas' and moaning about just mentioning the importance of representation belittle very real problems in the UK and US media industries. These people don't have the qualifications, insider knowledge or the actual job experience to comment on these industry issues and, as a result, muddy the discussion in harmful ways.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 11:58:12 GMT
I generally don't look at the fandom outside of this forum. All I ever hear about other places is how much everybody seems to hate everything that the show has done these past few years, and I've got better things to do than listen to people hating on something for the sake of it. Having said that, I was just now recommended a post by the BBC on YouTube (turns out you can post messages on it... who knew?) and I thought I'd give it a look. All it said was "Two days until the emotional Doctor Who Series 12 finale. "This is going to hurt. Brace yourself."" Then I scrolled down to the comments to find endless lists of people hating on the show, the actors, the writing, the characters... Why can't people find something more meaningful to do with their lives than this? All they are doing is ruining the fun for everyone else There are, sadly, people who think the show must freeze in their preferred incarnation and that they "own" it. Anything that deviates from it will be attacked. They are also the ones that feel the need to back up their nonsense with "Been a fan since ____" as though it gives their hate some weight. You'll see angry emojis on ANY DW story on Facebook no matter how positive the news. Even Delgado's birthday post from the DW account had people attacking Jodie and Chibnall. There are valid complaints, or at least valid opinions, about any era. We don't tend to see those on social media too often - just the more hateful ones. These people want to create a headline-like attack - they're not after reasoned debate or coming round to a different point of view. They want to see the world burn. Yet..it's not new. Look at some of the DWB fanzines from the 80s and you see homophobic stuff about JNT. Outpost Gallifrey was worse over RTD's "agenda" than it ever was over Jodie's casting by and large. The difference now compared to 1986 or even as recently as 2005 pre-FB, YT and Twitter is the ease and quickness of sharing your hate if you want to. It's right there on your phone in a few taps "#NotMyDoctor". Add an angry emoji. Retweet someone else's hate if you can't be bothered writing your own. If words are weapons, and they are, then there are an awful lot of people who shouldn't be allowed to carry firearms out there.
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Post by Ela on Mar 1, 2020 19:15:51 GMT
All I can think of, reading the latest comments, is that Chibnall himself is (in)famous for dissing Doctor Who in his youth. People can hate all they want, I don't have to listen to the haters.
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Post by relativetime on Mar 1, 2020 19:30:11 GMT
I generally don't look at the fandom outside of this forum. All I ever hear about other places is how much everybody seems to hate everything that the show has done these past few years, and I've got better things to do than listen to people hating on something for the sake of it. Having said that, I was just now recommended a post by the BBC on YouTube (turns out you can post messages on it... who knew?) and I thought I'd give it a look. All it said was "Two days until the emotional Doctor Who Series 12 finale. "This is going to hurt. Brace yourself."" Then I scrolled down to the comments to find endless lists of people hating on the show, the actors, the writing, the characters... Why can't people find something more meaningful to do with their lives than this? All they are doing is ruining the fun for everyone else It's a shame that the dissatisfaction rarely evolves beyond a word salad. There are some really quite magical things that can come from turning those feelings on their head. For instance, the story goes that Steve Parkhouse allegedly dissatisfied with what was being done on television with the Fifth Doctor during his comics run. Rather than write that into his stories, he went in a completely different direction. He brought us Stockbridge, Rassilon, Max, Shayde, lost mountains, old foes and fallen companions. He turned that into something constructive. Built on it. Hell, if we really think about it, one of Big Finish's touchstones was: But what if they'd had more? The rehabilitation of the Sixth Doctor, the work they've done with Adric and so on; it's all come from that same impulse to create something. On some level, I agree. But when many of these people are getting angry about the presence of women in positions of authority or treating LGBT people like actual people or telling stories relevant to the problems we face today, what sort of magical things are supposed to come of giving them the license to do Doctor Who their way? That's not to say there aren't legitimate complaints about the show's writing or presentation and that there aren't a significant portion of fans giving voice to said complaints in a healthy and respectful manner. But the impression I've had so far is that most of these people are mad that the show isn't excluding or outright attacking marginalized people and that goes against everything this show is supposed to be about.
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Post by glutamodo on Mar 1, 2020 19:57:38 GMT
Some scattered comments.
I understand that fan backlash is coming to be known by showrunners as "The Fandom Menace" Sheesh.
Still, I kind of regret to say that I have been affected by some negative online commentary. I try to counter that by listening to the rather positive Reality Bomb podcast, oh, and Tin Dog, of course. I do try to tune out the spoilers, but you can't avoid them if you follow such things.
I would rather like it though if Reality Bomb would assemble a panel of DW fans who normally gush positive about the show, with one of the "haters" (Gary Buechler would be a good candidate) for... uh... discussion? Debate? Rantfest?
I'm still undecided as to if I will go with my plan, once the current series of New Who concludes... (which is, like happening right now) I'd buy it then, and binge watch it all. I will do so at some point though, just not sure when.
Chibnall's notorious young comment become famous because it was saved on video. Back then most public fan reaction was in the "letters" columns of fanzines and some genre magazines. Now, when I decided to give up on the classic series, halfway through the McCoy era, I didn't yell, I did not tell anyone. I just stopped watching. Didn't stop my fandom though, as I came back for the TV Movie and New-Who.
Now, I think Big Finish is probably the best holder of genre franchises out there today. They respect the history (canon) of the stories they tell, and they almost always tell excellent stories in that framework.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 22:50:15 GMT
It's a shame that the dissatisfaction rarely evolves beyond a word salad. There are some really quite magical things that can come from turning those feelings on their head. For instance, the story goes that Steve Parkhouse allegedly dissatisfied with what was being done on television with the Fifth Doctor during his comics run. Rather than write that into his stories, he went in a completely different direction. He brought us Stockbridge, Rassilon, Max, Shayde, lost mountains, old foes and fallen companions. He turned that into something constructive. Built on it. Hell, if we really think about it, one of Big Finish's touchstones was: But what if they'd had more? The rehabilitation of the Sixth Doctor, the work they've done with Adric and so on; it's all come from that same impulse to create something. On some level, I agree. But when many of these people are getting angry about the presence of women in positions of authority or treating LGBT people like actual people or telling stories relevant to the problems we face today, what sort of magical things are supposed to come of giving them the license to do Doctor Who their way? That's not to say there aren't legitimate complaints about the show's writing or presentation and that there aren't a significant portion of fans giving voice to said complaints in a healthy and respectful manner. But the impression I've had so far is that most of these people are mad that the show isn't excluding or outright attacking marginalized people and that goes against everything this show is supposed to be about. And that's the word salad aspect. In order to create well, in any capacity, you have to be capable of scrutinising how things work. Why things are the way that they are (part of the reason I love the prologue to The Crusaders is that it boils down the show's premise into a single idea -- "But why are things the way they are?"). nucleusofswarm initially nailed it on the head, it's all about that drive to create substance, meaning, life. Hatred fundamentally does not create any of those things. If you dug down deep into comments bashing X or Y, there isn't a legitimate basis for characters, setting or anything there. In comparatively very moderate, very temperate circumstances -- where the tea is mild and the biscuits are pleasant -- it's easy to come into the brainstorming session with: "I don't want [this]." Alright... But what do you want? What's Not Red Riding Hood? What's not London? Well, that could be any number of things and a universal "no" to every single new idea brings it down smaller and smaller and smaller... Until, there's nothing. Nothing, nothing, nothing forever. All marching one after the other. Very uniform. Very predictable. Very dull. Plus, the brain doesn't work that way. Don't think about rabbits and the brain immediately conjures up rabbits. With no two rabbits being the same. As a creative, I love a "Yes", but "I'm not sure" is just as valid because it can be turned into a "Yes." They're open to the possibility of being brought aboard. With a "No", there is nothing to create with and rarely does it progress beyond that. It can't. Primarily to remain within that in-group, out-group "makes someone feel powerful" gubbins. To leave, would be to invite a "No" against them. Like a sanction. The reality is that bashing is a prison and, on the whole, that prison doesn't have anything to do with Doctor Who. Not really. The show is an outlet for these feelings, but not the cause. That lies elsewhere. And in content creation, it is impossible to create anything with any team unless you're willing to build and commit wholeheartedly to the process of building. Especially in science fiction. A genre that has a long history of questioning fundamental norms and exploring concepts rarely ever examined in other fields.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Apr 12, 2020 0:27:42 GMT
A few days ago I started getting targeted ads on Facebook and Twitter for the new versions of Party Of Five and The First Wives Club. I was a little intrigued and was kind of impressed at how they’ve been reimagined with a diverse cast and updated plots (PO5 has the parents being deported and the kids coping until they can get them let back into the country).
What has impressed me has been the severe lack of entitlement among those fans of the original versions of those movies/shows/books not getting up in arms about the changed storyline’s and characters. There’s been a little moaning but nothing on the lengths that Who and Charmed have received.
Are genre fans unique in this sort of complaining? God, I hope not.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 3, 2020 20:30:43 GMT
Well, time for another revival. now normally, miscelleanous twitter responses about Who aren't something i tend to share, given they tend be rather specifically about something that only makes sense if you were there. Plus they're just nonsense.
However this time, this must be beheld - Vinay Patel has taken on some of the prominent minds behind NotMyDoc and given them a roasting:
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Post by timegirl on Dec 3, 2020 20:43:43 GMT
Well, time for another revival. now normally, miscelleanous twitter responses about Who aren't something i tend to share, given they tend be rather specifically about something that only makes sense if you were there. Plus they're just nonsense. However this time, this must be beheld - Vinay Patel has taken on some of the prominent minds behind NotMyDoc and given them a roasting: That’s brilliant of Mr.Patel!😁
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,671
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Post by shutupbanks on Dec 3, 2020 22:48:59 GMT
Well, time for another revival. now normally, miscelleanous twitter responses about Who aren't something i tend to share, given they tend be rather specifically about something that only makes sense if you were there. Plus they're just nonsense. However this time, this must be beheld - Vinay Patel has taken on some of the prominent minds behind NotMyDoc and given them a roasting: John the White is the only person I’ve ever blocked on Twitter. I got into a stoush with him a few months back that led to me getting notifications nonstop for almost 24 hours. He’s the worst kind of troll: he genuinely, obviously doesn’t care about anything but himself and he’s got the spare time to prove it.
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