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Post by kipperserver on Nov 12, 2022 18:34:24 GMT
Here is a second person refusing to condemn piracy. I will have to step back from this discussion now because I may say something I'll regret. But do not accuse me if making up fictional comments. It seems insane that I even have to say this, but refraining from condemning piracy is not the same thing as advocating for piracy nor is it a statement of intent to pirate. Also -- and I cannot possibly stress this enough -- nor is discussing the existence of piracy. I'll reiterate my stance once more, as simply as I can, to hopefully clear up any further confusion: I am no longer willing to try and get new fans into Big Finish nor am I going to push back against people who do talk about pirating their content. Please refrain from imagining that I said or implied anything other than that. Further, I would say that it's a fundamentally unhealthy mindset to view criticism of a company as some kind of personal attack on said company, the people who work there, or the fandom in general. You absolutely should condemn piracy. Or stop calling yourself a fan.
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Post by Kestrel on Nov 12, 2022 18:38:01 GMT
(EDIT: Yeah, no.)
....
Anyway, that lunacy aside, two things occur to me:
1. I've only been approaching this stuff from the perspective of a digital-only consumer. The sheer scale of Big Finish's nonsense increases exponentially once you start looking at the prices for the actual CDs, nevermind the exorbitant overseas shipping costs.
2. So in the next few months I intend to go through my purchase history and pull some actual data, rather than relying on crude, ungrounded estimates. I'll be determining how much money I spent per month, on average, before and after the big price hike, as well the total number of purchases, types of purchases (EG pre-order, sale, or neither) and the total number of individual stories. It might be interesting if others would be inclined to do the same, so that we migh more concretely ascertain to just what extent this change will affect our buying habits.
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Post by Kestrel on Nov 12, 2022 18:42:34 GMT
It seems insane that I even have to say this, but refraining from condemning piracy is not the same thing as advocating for piracy nor is it a statement of intent to pirate. Also -- and I cannot possibly stress this enough -- nor is discussing the existence of piracy. I'll reiterate my stance once more, as simply as I can, to hopefully clear up any further confusion: I am no longer willing to try and get new fans into Big Finish nor am I going to push back against people who do talk about pirating their content. Please refrain from imagining that I said or implied anything other than that. Further, I would say that it's a fundamentally unhealthy mindset to view criticism of a company as some kind of personal attack on said company, the people who work there, or the fandom in general. You absolutely should condemn piracy. Or stop calling yourself a fan. I'm not sure how you intend for me to respond to something like this short of vicious mockery, but I'll pass.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 12, 2022 19:02:36 GMT
It seems insane that I even have to say this, but refraining from condemning piracy is not the same thing as advocating for piracy nor is it a statement of intent to pirate. Also -- and I cannot possibly stress this enough -- nor is discussing the existence of piracy. I'll reiterate my stance once more, as simply as I can, to hopefully clear up any further confusion: I am no longer willing to try and get new fans into Big Finish nor am I going to push back against people who do talk about pirating their content. Please refrain from imagining that I said or implied anything other than that. Further, I would say that it's a fundamentally unhealthy mindset to view criticism of a company as some kind of personal attack on said company, the people who work there, or the fandom in general. You absolutely should condemn piracy. Or stop calling yourself a fan. Did you actually READ anything we wrote in the past few pages? Please do that. Read it out loud. THINK about it. (this is actually a technique I learned in our professional communication class 2 weeks ago at work)
THEN, and only then, you may make statements like this.
Sorry, but this is crossing a line.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 12, 2022 19:03:56 GMT
Here is a second person refusing to condemn piracy. I will have to step back from this discussion now because I may say something I'll regret. But do not accuse me if making up fictional comments. It seems insane that I even have to say this, but refraining from condemning piracy is not the same thing as advocating for piracy nor is it a statement of intent to pirate. Also -- and I cannot possibly stress this enough -- nor is discussing the existence of piracy. I'll reiterate my stance once more, as simply as I can, to hopefully clear up any further confusion: I am no longer willing to try and get new fans into Big Finish nor am I going to push back against people who do talk about pirating their content. Please refrain from imagining that I said or implied anything other than that. Further, I would say that it's a fundamentally unhealthy mindset to view criticism of a company as some kind of personal attack on said company, the people who work there, or the fandom in general. Mate, fully on your side here, and understanding what you are saying.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 12, 2022 19:07:39 GMT
(EDIT: Yeah, no.) .... Anyway, that lunacy aside, two things occur to me: 1. I've only been approaching this stuff from the perspective of a digital-only consumer. The sheer scale of Big Finish's nonsense increases exponentially once you start looking at the prices for the actual CDs, nevermind the exorbitant overseas shipping costs. 2. So in the next few months I intend to go through my purchase history and pull some actual data, rather than relying on crude, ungrounded estimates. I'll be determining how much money I spent per month, on average, before and after the big price hike, as well the total number of purchases, types of purchases (EG pre-order, sale, or neither) and the total number of individual stories. It might be interesting if others would be inclined to do the same, so that we migh more concretely ascertain to just what extent this change will affect our buying habits. Sounds like a good idea.
Seeing stuff in black and white is always best.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 12, 2022 19:19:51 GMT
And just for the record- I also do not condone piracy. However, I do know some pirates, and in most cases, it is just not worth getting into arguments with them. They just do not recognize what they do is wrong- either because "what we download is so small, it won't hurt anyone" or "these greedy b***ards already earn too much money, anyways, so f*** them".
Even if it is hard, I see Kestrel's point- after the underhanded move by BF and the loss of trust, it has become much much harder to defend against these arguments and call pirates "the bad guys". Because like everything in life, there is no black and white. Only deeper and lighter shades of grey.
I personally come from a region where honesty is valued above everything else. I even once went to the ticket counter AFTER a train journey- the train was totally overcrowded, so I could not buy a ticket from the conductor. I felt rotten that I sneaked a ride.
The man at the ticket counter actually LAUGHED INTO MY FACE.
I would feel similar if I committed piracy, because that would also mean to betray this guy:
However, that we are even having this discussion just shows how much the trust in BF has been rattled. And this is with US, the most rabid fans!
So UK people- wallow in your "win" and "gratification" over us "foreign freeloaders" if you must, but please be aware that a significant segment of overseas people have been alienated and pushed away.
This will mean price increases in the coming months and years (yes, also for UK people) and might also mean less releases, since BF has to cut back on productions to be more economical with their money.
Mark my words.
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Post by Kestrel on Nov 12, 2022 19:25:04 GMT
It's a self-perpetuating cycle. The more they raise prices, the less they sell, the less they sell, the more they raise prices.
2020 and 2021 was a golden opportunity for explosive growth -- people were stuck at home the world over, starved for new media to get into (remember Tiger King?) and many Doctor Who fans, specifically, were unsatisfied with the TV content -- and therefore easily persuaded into the wild and wacky world of audios.
But, evidently... that did not happen.
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Post by tuigirl on Nov 12, 2022 19:29:48 GMT
It's a self-perpetuating cycle. The more they raise prices, the less they sell, the less they sell, the more they raise prices. 2020 and 2021 was a golden opportunity for explosive growth -- people were stuck at home the world over, starved for new media to get into (remember Tiger King?) and many Doctor Who fans, specifically, were unsatisfied with the TV content -- and therefore easily persuaded into the wild and wacky world of audios. But, evidently... that did not happen. Yes. Sigh.
I just feel like a broken record. I look at the German wide world of audio drama, the "everywhere availability", they have taken that opportunity you write above with open hands and ran away with it. And then I look at what BF is doing.... and I get whiplash from shaking my head.
Just read earlier in this thread, I made a post about what Germany, nation of audio drama, is doing. I am not going to copy and paste again.
Sigh. It is not even that we are at war with the UK or something, or have re-settled at the far side of the moon, completely out of sight.
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Post by masterdoctor on Nov 12, 2022 19:54:17 GMT
Also, I’ve known people who pirate(in fact most of those I know) that pirate due to financial hardship and wanting to keep up with popular culture or their hobbies they would have to fully stop outside of piracy. Again, there are shades of gray, and recognizing this does not equal advocating for it
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Post by relativetime on Nov 12, 2022 20:33:50 GMT
To add to the piracy conversation, how about when that’s really your only option to legally experience said media? The only way to obtain Sapphire & Steel audios now is through websites like eBay and you’re looking at paying prices up to $100 or more depending on what you’re looking for or how lucky you get and that’s a lot of money you have to just shell out for one luxury entertainment item. That’s not even considering that most people today consume media digitally and might not even have a regular CD player readily available.
Or just look at the scare we just recently had with the Robert Banks Stewart creations. You literally could not purchase these stories on the Big Finish website for a period of time, albeit a relatively short one,. And some of these stories were crucial to ongoing story arcs such as The Zygom Who Fell to Earth. Again, other options, but all of them more costly and therefore more inaccessible to people who might otherwise purchase these stories.
Again, neither of these cases is necessarily a 1x1 perfect comparison because technically you could always still obtain these audios through second hand markets, but that’s still a lot of hoops most people aren’t able to jump through. And if your product was never even offered physically in the first place and it becomes no longer available, then what are you supposed to do?
Anyways this has been my “piracy good, actually” mini rant.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Nov 12, 2022 21:25:31 GMT
To add to the piracy conversation, how about when that’s really your only option to legally experience said media? The only way to obtain Sapphire & Steel audios now is through websites like eBay and you’re looking at paying prices up to $100 or more depending on what you’re looking for or how lucky you get and that’s a lot of money you have to just shell out for one luxury entertainment item. That’s not even considering that most people today consume media digitally and might not even have a regular CD player readily available. Or just look at the scare we just recently had with the Robert Banks Stewart creations. You literally could not purchase these stories on the Big Finish website for a period of time, albeit a relatively short one,. And some of these stories were crucial to ongoing story arcs such as The Zygom Who Fell to Earth. Again, other options, but all of them more costly and therefore more inaccessible to people who might otherwise purchase these stories. Again, neither of these cases is necessarily a 1x1 perfect comparison because technically you could always still obtain these audios through second hand markets, but that’s still a lot of hoops most people aren’t able to jump through. And if your product was never even offered physically in the first place and it becomes no longer available, then what are you supposed to do?Anyways this has been my “piracy good, actually” mini rant. And BF doesn’t receive any additional funds from people selling on the secondary market. If I wanted to listen to The Tomorrow People series, well, I’m not going to pay some eBay bloodsucker $30.00 to $50.00 an audio. My hardline on piracy gets significantly softer on out of print & unavailable material.
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Post by timleschild on Nov 12, 2022 21:35:02 GMT
To add to the piracy conversation, how about when that’s really your only option to legally experience said media? The only way to obtain Sapphire & Steel audios now is through websites like eBay and you’re looking at paying prices up to $100 or more depending on what you’re looking for or how lucky you get and that’s a lot of money you have to just shell out for one luxury entertainment item. That’s not even considering that most people today consume media digitally and might not even have a regular CD player readily available. Or just look at the scare we just recently had with the Robert Banks Stewart creations. You literally could not purchase these stories on the Big Finish website for a period of time, albeit a relatively short one,. And some of these stories were crucial to ongoing story arcs such as The Zygom Who Fell to Earth. Again, other options, but all of them more costly and therefore more inaccessible to people who might otherwise purchase these stories. Again, neither of these cases is necessarily a 1x1 perfect comparison because technically you could always still obtain these audios through second hand markets, but that’s still a lot of hoops most people aren’t able to jump through. And if your product was never even offered physically in the first place and it becomes no longer available, then what are you supposed to do?Anyways this has been my “piracy good, actually” mini rant. And BF doesn’t receive any additional funds from people selling on the secondary market. If I wanted to listen to The Tomorrow People series, well, I’m not going to pay some eBay bloodsucker $30.00 to $50.00 an audio. My hardline on piracy gets significantly softer on out of print & unavailable material. Why are people selling things on eBay bloodsuckers? Especially during these times of financial hardship it makes sense to sell things that maybe you don't use anymore.
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Post by cwm on Nov 13, 2022 21:59:21 GMT
Some Australian customers are reporting a number of recent 3-disc releases (Kaleidoscope, Geronimo, Rose Tyler have been cited) have been changed to a round $30 AUS, rather than a specific number tied to the exchange rate
(EDIT: Actually it looks as if it may have been the case when BF adjusted the prices for the day the exchange rate just happened to match up with that)
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Post by mark687 on Nov 13, 2022 23:24:51 GMT
Some Australian customers are reporting a number of recent 3-disc releases (Kaleidoscope, Geronimo, Rose Tyler have been cited) have been changed to a round $30 AUS, rather than a specific number tied to the exchange rate (EDIT: Actually it looks as if it may have been the case when BF adjusted the prices for the day the exchange rate just happened to match up with that) Yes tying in directly with real time rates still produces a 3-10 unit of currency value fluctuation depending on when the overseas customer buys. Regards mark687
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