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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 11:18:02 GMT
Just looking at the preview stills for Web and Evil in DWM the difference in facial definition is massive I don't know why they would've given Web to BF Creative in the 1st place and not just added it to CNs firm and kept some sense of Animation consistency. Regards mark687 I'm sure it's just resources - time and money. One "bad" ep is better than 4, 5 or 6 so if anything had to be rushed or lower budgeted, surely this one. I don't quite get the "so you're only paying for one bad episode of animation?" points though. Well, you're getting them in better quality than the 2014 release and you're getting the plethora of extras we get for every story. Is that worth nothing to some?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 11:22:12 GMT
Just looking at the preview stills for Web and Evil in DWM the difference in facial definition is massive I don't know why they would've given Web to BF Creative in the 1st place and not just added it to CNs firm and kept some sense of Animation consistency. Regards mark687 I'm sure it's just resources - time and money. One "bad" ep is better than 4, 5 or 6 so if anything had to be rushed or lower budgeted, surely this one. I don't quite get the "so you're only paying for one bad episode of animation?" points though. Well, you're getting them in better quality than the 2014 release and you're getting the plethora of extras we get for every story. Is that worth nothing to some? Fair point, I never watch VAM myself, my life isn't long enough to fit all that in along with the actual fiction I want to watch (and re-watch). Haven't heard much about the video quality uplift - the originals were pretty good, how much better is the special edition?
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Post by mark687 on Aug 18, 2021 11:22:45 GMT
I really don’t mind it in some ways its better than the other ones *shrug* Agreed in the end its subjective to the eye of the viewer and its great that step by step we're getting the visual record restored whatever else. Regards mark687
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2021 13:45:27 GMT
I'm sure it's just resources - time and money. One "bad" ep is better than 4, 5 or 6 so if anything had to be rushed or lower budgeted, surely this one. I don't quite get the "so you're only paying for one bad episode of animation?" points though. Well, you're getting them in better quality than the 2014 release and you're getting the plethora of extras we get for every story. Is that worth nothing to some? Fair point, I never watch VAM myself, my life isn't long enough to fit all that in along with the actual fiction I want to watch (and re-watch). Haven't heard much about the video quality uplift - the originals were pretty good, how much better is the special edition? Also a fair point, I do buy for the VAM as well, it's part of what's made Who so special on home video since what? The Shada video and the "Years" vids. And yeah, the quality is better, not anything that's going to make you think it's a movie but better than they rushed out. And they always re-do the audio for bluray too so on a good sound system Mark Ayers' work helps the sound to shine.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Aug 18, 2021 14:59:57 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2021 9:28:33 GMT
My thoughts on Web 3 animation:
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Post by ollychops on Aug 19, 2021 11:44:00 GMT
After watching the animation last night, whilst it’s not brilliant, I don’t think it deserves the bashing it’s getting. The graphics are a bit basic (but, really, it was never going to be Pixar quality) and some of the movements are unnatural/jittery but I appreciate that they were more animated than the 2D animations so as a one-off episode it’s serviceable.
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 19, 2021 17:34:52 GMT
Evil of the Daleks is looking great in the latest DWM. As someone who isn’t keen on recons or the soundtracks it’s not a story I know much about, except for its reputation amongst fandom.
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Post by sherlock on Aug 19, 2021 17:43:34 GMT
Evil of the Daleks is looking great in the latest DWM. As someone who isn’t keen on recons or the soundtracks it’s not a story I know much about, except for its reputation amongst fandom. The previews do look great. I might be tempted to watch it in colour this time just cos the images there look so nice (I’ve been religiously sticking to black and white for 60s animations so far).
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Post by shallacatop on Aug 19, 2021 17:53:14 GMT
Evil of the Daleks is looking great in the latest DWM. As someone who isn’t keen on recons or the soundtracks it’s not a story I know much about, except for its reputation amongst fandom. The previews do look great. I might be tempted to watch it in colour this time just cos the images there look so nice (I’ve been religiously sticking to black and white for 60s animations so far). I’ve been watching them all in colour apart from The Web of Fear, as it’s only the black and white version that’s on the main disc. I just love the colour palettes of them; I think the only one that’s been a touch off is Power, but I think that was done in colour retrospectively?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2021 16:17:05 GMT
I have to say that the reaction to the Web ep 3 animation has been unreasonable in some quarters. It seems a case of wanting something to be of a certain benchmark standard and then saying "how much? I'm, not paying that!!"
Granted if we are to have these episodes animated, it has to be at budget or not at all. Preferences vary as to styles of animation. Of the previous releases, I preferred The Reign of Terror bar The Invasion (higher outlay) but am in a minority, so there.
My biggest gripe of prior releases was the 2D format, so 3D is exactly where I want them to be headed. This is a first try and as a trial run, I would say, from the clips I have seen, its a 50-60% success, with work to be done on the detail of the moving characters, but I like the background detail and the fact that characters move towards the camera at an angle as opposed to left to right in a fixed crab like poise. All the constructive criticism here I concur with, and it seems that its not far off being right, with practice.
I have not bought it yet, but I will do as the animation is to me a bonus and not the main feature. For myself, it is the sterling upscale to HD on Blu-Ray of the surviving episodes, the new reconstructed episode 3 from the Telesnaps and of course the new VAM, which are now pretty much of broadcast standard.
Depending on individual expectations, the animation is no better or worse than its predecessors, but for more than one episode, improvements are achievable and I should think they will make a big difference over and above the old 2D articulation and sideways motion (bobbing up and down like corks) that we are more used to.
Its a strong effort from the likely very small team who have made this at a modest cost and it is a disservice to them to be judged on the work of higher budgeted, large teams that make the kind of footage for modern day computer games an the like.
But. yes, I did enjoy the fan made 2D animation excerpts linked here - I particularly liked comparing them like for like as they were interpretations of the same scene and I must say they were both level, to me at least.
Reasons for not buying yet? Well, I have the DVD version and am mindful that it will see the light of day as part of a Series 5 box set in due course, so will get it in the interim when it comes down in price as they always do (I will buy full price for the box set collection anyhow so it not that I am a cheapskate).
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Aug 21, 2021 17:07:10 GMT
There is stuff to critique certainly, I think the animators themselves are likely aware of this, but I do take umbrage with comments like ''Fan animations look better'': hey internet commenter, did it ever occur to you that the reason they do is because the fan animators have no time limit/deadline on them and don't have execs breathing down their necks?
I think some need to remember 'the quality triangle': Good - Fast - Cheap. You can only ever have two at a time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2021 17:56:08 GMT
There is stuff to critique certainly, I think the animators themselves are likely aware of this, but I do take umbrage with comments like ''Fan animations look better'': hey internet commenter, did it ever occur to you that the reason they do is because the fan animators have no time limit/deadline on them and don't have execs breathing down their necks? I think some need to remember 'the quality triangle': Good - Fast - Cheap. You can only ever have two at a time. I think you may be interested in the Project Management 'Iron Triangle'. Time, Cost & Quality. Its the same three elements. A project is deemed a success only if it meets all three criteria. A failure of one invariably impacts on a breach of the other two. You are running out of time, so you have to authorise a cost overrun to meet the deadline, or sacrifice quality, for example. Things are not meeting quality expectations in terms of deliverables, so you have a time overrun, delivering late to meet that, or ask for more money ( costs)..... If you have underestimated the costs of the project deliverables, so you may have to sacrifice quality to deliver on time, before the money runs out, or work more slowly with a reduced team. I think that the animation had a time and cost constraint set and that the quality outcome was determined by that. I am not sure there was a set quality benchmark, but more a case of establishing what could be reasonably be delivered within the latter two frameworks. From that they may now be able to estimate future projects in respect to time and costs with a degree of accuracy. There always has to be a benchmark from a project teams own expertise. That's a significant part of the cost element...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2021 16:25:06 GMT
There is stuff to critique certainly, I think the animators themselves are likely aware of this, but I do take umbrage with comments like ''Fan animations look better'': hey internet commenter, did it ever occur to you that the reason they do is because the fan animators have no time limit/deadline on them and don't have execs breathing down their necks? I think some need to remember 'the quality triangle': Good - Fast - Cheap. You can only ever have two at a time. I don't understand what's wrong with making that comparison. Just because a fan has no time constraint doesn't mean they can turn out a quality product, it takes talent and effort, and we should recognise that appropriately, like Disney did, hiring the fan who de-aged Luke Skywalker better than they did in the Mandalorian, or BBC Enterprises, hiring babelcolour to do colourisations of old episodes. All I'm really saying is there's a free animation out there that does the job for me and so I see no reason to buy a BBC product which makes me queasy due to the excessive character movement.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Aug 22, 2021 16:31:07 GMT
There is stuff to critique certainly, I think the animators themselves are likely aware of this, but I do take umbrage with comments like ''Fan animations look better'': hey internet commenter, did it ever occur to you that the reason they do is because the fan animators have no time limit/deadline on them and don't have execs breathing down their necks? I think some need to remember 'the quality triangle': Good - Fast - Cheap. You can only ever have two at a time. I don't understand what's wrong with making that comparison. Just because a fan has no time constraint doesn't mean they can turn out a quality product, it takes talent and effort, and we should recognise that appropriately, like Disney did, hiring the fan who de-aged Luke Skywalker better than they did in the Mandalorian, or BBC Enterprises, hiring babelcolour to do colourisations of old episodes. All I'm really saying is there's a free animation out there that does the job for me and so I see no reason to buy a BBC product which makes me queasy due to the excessive character movement. To be clear, it wasn't aimed at you - it was about broader comments I'd seen elsewhere on WOF.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Aug 23, 2021 9:45:33 GMT
I watched Web of Fear yesterday and thought I'd throw in my 2 pennies' worth.
The animation wasn't good and I agree there is too much movement. It worked for Professor Travers as it was like Watling's performance but not for any of the others. What I found equally off-putting, although I don't see mentioned as much, was that a lot of the time the characters had their heads at funny angles. Reminded me of the way Riker used to do in TNG when he walked out of a scene.
Having said that, it is OK and as it is only 1 episode out of 6 I don't regret my purchase.
To me, it was like a first draft, proof-of-concept, exercise for the different way of doing animation. And as a proof of concept I think it was very successful, but it definitely needs a bit more refinement before it will produce anything of a release-worthy standard.
Given that this was 1 episode out of 6, it was probably the right one to use for an experiment. Not to mention that of all 97 missing episodes this is the only one definitely known to exist, so for that reason alone the chances of this animation being superseded by a returned episode are higher than for any of the other 96, which strengthens the argument for using this as an experimental episode.
The cynic in me would point out that, for the BBC, old Dr Who episodes are the gift that keeps on giving. Whether as VHS, DVD, Blu Ray, laser disc, audio cassette, CD, download, Britbox, special edition, individually or as season box sets, the BBC have sold us the same archive material many times over. I take it as read that any animated episodes will be released, re-released and probably re-re-released with improved quality each time. We have already seen it with Power of the Daleks. I have no doubt we will at some point get the Shada special edition in episodic format, Macra Terror with the missing scene animated and Polly's hair the right length in the preceding scenes, etc etc. So I think we will get a better quality animation of episode 3 before too many years have passed.
Animation aside, there was more than one occasion in the live action episodes where I kept thinking how much the Yeti looked like Angry Birds.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2021 18:50:19 GMT
A listing has appeared for Galaxy 4 on a Swiss retailer for November along with Season 17 for The Collection in December.
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Post by ollychops on Sept 2, 2021 21:31:35 GMT
A listing has appeared for Galaxy 4 on a Swiss retailer for November along with Season 17 for The Collection in December. Surprised we're getting Galaxy 4 so soon (I thought we'd get the Abominable Snowmen before it!) but I'm not complaining!
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Post by shallacatop on Sept 12, 2021 20:53:27 GMT
Been seeing nothing but praise for the Evil of the Daleks animation following the BFI screening this afternoon, with a lot saying it’s the best animation to date. Looking forward to seeing it for myself!
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Post by johnhurtdoctor on Sept 12, 2021 23:05:24 GMT
Well could it be any worse? I don't understand why they didn't just take more time with all this, why the rush? Find a style of animation that works & use that same style across all the releases rather than this mess of different styles that vary from average to awful in quality.
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