Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2019 16:09:44 GMT
Wasn’t a massive fan of this. Far from bad, but I’m not overly enthusiastic about it either. There’s an intriguing set up in the first two parts, but it doesn’t spend enough time where the real interest lies: the Doctor. The last two parts completely change tact and genre in a War of the Worlds rip-off that feels rather generic. There’s good stuff in there, particularly the first half of the story, but there’s not enough in there to make it stand out and I didn’t get the thematic vibes that others have mentioned. There’s the scope for it, it’s just not exploited. Not what I expected from Simon Guerrier, frankly. The Dreyfus Master amounts to little more than generic soundbites. The definition of the character based on a brief character description. I feel Big Finish made a mistake not taking advantage of him being the First Master. He’s just an alternative to Delgado for the earlier incarnations. I’d have happily sacrificed this for an extra two parts of Daughter of the Gods. Trouble is as well as that considering recent events, we probably won’t be seeing Dreyfus’s Master anymore so for the next few releases featuring him they’re really going to have make sure they explore the fact he’s the First incarnation as much as possible.
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Post by mrperson on Dec 22, 2019 2:53:21 GMT
4.5
Was really quite good. Perhaps more detail when I'm not this unmotivated.
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Post by fitzoliverj on Dec 22, 2019 10:20:35 GMT
I found this a very odd release (I'm glad I listened to 'Daughter of the Gods' first). I wasn't at all interested in the first two episodes - dreary story, unsympathetic characters (even the regulars). Once the halfway mark passes it perks up and becomes reasonably enjoyable.
This is the first, and probably the last, time I've heard James Dreyfus as the Master, and I don't think he's going to be a great loss. He's a much better actor than you'd think from his performance here - whether it was his decision, or the director's, or the writer's, I don't know, but somebody decided that in lieu of a personality he would simply speak every line through clenched teeth. This means it's very difficult to guage his personality... what he's doing is pretty unpleasant, but he seems genuinely offended that people are defending the humans' right to take over the planet, and genuinely upset by the death and destruction he leaves. His sincere offer to take Polly home just doesn't sit consistently with his whole plan. I think it's meant to suggest a moral ambiguity, that he's not precisely evil at this stage in his life so much as offering an alternative (and not particularly nice) moral position; but it just comes across as though nobody's really decided how the Master should be played. In the extras it's said that the writers were told to produce dialogue as though it were for Roger Delgado, but I don't think that's what we get. It's been observed that Dreyfus does not appear in the extras... I did wonder, on listening to the first two episodes, whether they'd actually edited his dialogue down in the play itself.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
Likes: 2,973
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Post by dorney on Dec 22, 2019 10:25:22 GMT
I feel Big Finish made a mistake not taking advantage of him being the First Master. He’s just an alternative to Delgado for the earlier incarnations. Well, as I’ve said before, as script editor on some of his scripts, him being ‘the First’ was a surprise to me.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
Likes: 2,973
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Post by dorney on Dec 22, 2019 10:26:08 GMT
Trouble is as well as that considering recent events, we probably won’t be seeing Dreyfus’s Master anymore so for the next few releases featuring him they’re really going to have make sure they explore the fact he’s the First incarnation as much as possible. I mean, it’s just to wind me up now, isn’t it?
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Post by slithe on Dec 22, 2019 10:56:03 GMT
I found this a very odd release (I'm glad I listened to 'Daughter of the Gods' first). I wasn't at all interested in the first two episodes - dreary story, unsympathetic characters (even the regulars). Once the halfway mark passes it perks up and becomes reasonably enjoyable. This is the first, and probably the last, time I've heard James Dreyfus as the Master, and I don't think he's going to be a great loss. He's a much better actor than you'd think from his performance here - whether it was his decision, or the director's, or the writer's, I don't know, but somebody decided that in lieu of a personality he would simply speak every line through clenched teeth. This means it's very difficult to guage his personality... what he's doing is pretty unpleasant, but he seems genuinely offended that people are defending the humans' right to take over the planet, and genuinely upset by the death and destruction he leaves. His sincere offer to take Polly home just doesn't sit consistently with his whole plan. I think it's meant to suggest a moral ambiguity, that he's not precisely evil at this stage in his life so much as offering an alternative (and not particularly nice) moral position; but it just comes across as though nobody's really decided how the Master should be played. In the extras it's said that the writers were told to produce dialogue as though it were for Roger Delgado, but I don't think that's what we get. It's been observed that Dreyfus does not appear in the extras... I did wonder, on listening to the first two episodes, whether they'd actually edited his dialogue down in the play itself. I think this is one of the rare BF releases where they could have gone for another episode or two. The first half, I agree, is very slow - but there is some good world building there. I enjoyed it as it ticks my own personal interests as a History teacher. I find it interesting that several people have also commented on how 'slow' and 'dreary' the first half is - I wonder if this is intentional. We have so many 'myths' that have grown up about the Home Front during both World Wars, that it is questionable how many of them are actually half-truths/exaggeration. The slow, regimented pace of life with everyone being entirely suspicious of each other and half-paranoid with fear of outsiders/invasion is forgotten as it doesn't tie with the concept of 'plucky Brits standing alone' - I think the first half probably reflects a lot of what life was actually like, dull and ordered by military officials. There did need to be some editing of this first half - the inclusion of the Doctor in more scenes would have probably helped. The second half probably is where the extra episode(s) would have benefitted. The moral question about colonising the planet also ties well into that other issue that continues to blight the UK - the role of the Empire. Both Wars were fought to defend that, just as much as the UK itself, and the contribution that non-British troops played in the War effort is only just being acknowledged. I find it interesting that the people who help the colonists defeat the Master are still treated with hostility and suspicion - not unlike what Commonwealth migrants found at first hand in the 1940s and 1950s (if not beyond). I never really bought the idea of Dreyfus and Delgado. I just saw him as 'generic Master' - he never really owns the role and, whilst Dreyfus isn't a bad actor, he doesn't really put his stamp on it. Clearly, background politics has affected this release - with both Dreyfus and Chapman unlikely to return to BF. Personally, I think this isn't a bad release. It is slower than usual, but then that is standard fare with historical stories. This might have worked better with Hartnell as by this point in the series' run, the historical stories had largely been phased out (the Highlanders being the last exception and it is likely this was commissioned when Hartnell was still in the role).
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Post by davygallagher on Dec 22, 2019 11:19:45 GMT
Trouble is as well as that considering recent events, we probably won’t be seeing Dreyfus’s Master anymore so for the next few releases featuring him they’re really going to have make sure they explore the fact he’s the First incarnation as much as possible. I mean, it’s just to wind me up now, isn’t it? Honestly, no, I don't think anyone is - they're just going by the original BF announcement that he was indeed the first Master. Why would they read that a few years ago and think anything differently, unless they'd seen you post about it here? It's BF you should be frustrated at for not co-ordinating rather than posters just going on good faith by what they were told when being asked to part with their money. I've no idea what Matt Fitton and Guy Adams think about the "First Master" thing as writers on that set where the initial news story came from but it surely didn't just pop out of nowhere. Someone must have had the idea that Dreyfus was indeed the first. And it's not like a one word ambiguous typo in a news release once, they even interviewed James about how he felt playing the first incarnation of the character here: www.bigfinish.com/news/v/james-dreyfus-is-the-master
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
Likes: 2,973
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Post by dorney on Dec 22, 2019 11:37:11 GMT
I mean, it’s just to wind me up now, isn’t it? Honestly, no, I don't think anyone is - they're just going by the original BF announcement that he was indeed the first Master. Why would they read that a few years ago and think anything differently, unless they'd seen you post about it here? It's BF you should be frustrated at for not co-ordinating rather than posters just going on good faith by what they were told when being asked to part with their money. I've no idea what Matt Fitton and Guy Adams think about the "First Master" thing as writers on that set where the initial news story came from but it surely didn't just pop out of nowhere. Someone must have had the idea that Dreyfus was indeed the first. And it's not like a one word ambiguous typo in a news release once, they even interviewed James about how he felt playing the first incarnation of the character here: www.bigfinish.com/news/v/james-dreyfus-is-the-masterI was joking. I don’t seriously believe anyone’s trying to wind me, and I’m not frustrated by the listeners. Just amused and being light hearted! Thing is, I do absolutely understand why people think it’s the first Master. It’s something that often happens with stories - people go with the information they get quite early on (the two stories of mine I think people get wrong are Iceni - which isn’t a ‘you can’t change history’ story - and Assassination Games - which isn’t a C-M story more than a Who, for just this reason: opinions made in the first few minutes), so the press release seems to trump the actual content of the audios in question. I’m just saying I’m not really sure where that marketing spiel came from. I suspect it may just have been an assumption or the wrong end of the stick from the marketing department. That’s definitely happened! And as I’ve said elsewhere - he still could be, don’t get me wrong. But if there hasn’t been much made of him as ‘the first Master’ there’s a reason for that.
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Post by number13 on Dec 22, 2019 11:42:28 GMT
'First Master' idea: (but it includes a 1DAs spoiler so) {Spoiler} In 1DAs vol 1, the Master operates his TARDIS without the outer shell in place and manipulates the universe of Space/Time instead of moving his Ship.
Who knows what damage that insanely reckless behaviour causes to his own timeline? Maybe he was the First Master, but afterwards, he isn't?
(I quite like it so that makes it a good theory  And yes I get that's it's become a running joke, this idea is just a bit of fun  )
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Post by davygallagher on Dec 22, 2019 12:03:24 GMT
Honestly, no, I don't think anyone is - they're just going by the original BF announcement that he was indeed the first Master. Why would they read that a few years ago and think anything differently, unless they'd seen you post about it here? It's BF you should be frustrated at for not co-ordinating rather than posters just going on good faith by what they were told when being asked to part with their money. I've no idea what Matt Fitton and Guy Adams think about the "First Master" thing as writers on that set where the initial news story came from but it surely didn't just pop out of nowhere. Someone must have had the idea that Dreyfus was indeed the first. And it's not like a one word ambiguous typo in a news release once, they even interviewed James about how he felt playing the first incarnation of the character here: www.bigfinish.com/news/v/james-dreyfus-is-the-masterI was joking. Thing is, I do absolutely understand why people think it’s the first Master. It’s something that often happens with stories - people go with the information they get quite early on (the two stories of mine I think people get wrong are Iceni - which isn’t a ‘you can’t change history’ story - and Assassination Games - which isn’t a C-M story more than a Who, for just this reason: opinions made in the first few minutes), so the press release seems to trump the actual content of the audios in question. I’m just saying I’m not really sure where that marketing spiel came from. I suspect it may just have been an assumption or the wrong end of the stick from a different department. And as I’ve said elsewhere - he still could be, don’t get me wrong. But if there hasn’t been much made of him as ‘the first Master’ there’s a reason for that. Absolutely, the joke is implicit, don't worry - but you've brought it up enough to show it is something that does peeve you just a wee bit to take as text something you know to be not part of the character's essential core better than most having worked on him. You can be amused and a bit miffed at the same time here - we frequently are with some posters  Interesting points about your stories though. I'd say the difference between those stories of yours that may be mis-read are they're thematic issues. You'd have to listen and make up your own mind as to the message of Iceni or whether Assassination is more CM or Who but Dreyfus being either the first Master or not is surely a bit more binary, a bit more either/or than those examples. Frankly given real-world developments I wouldn't be surprised if we never hear anything further of it anyway, regardless of whether we would have done if James didn't go on his rants online. I said at the time there didn't seem to really be any need for him to be first other than a rather easy reason of keeping the timelines of him and The Doctor from getting too tangled, but even then he only had to be pre-Delgado rather than the very first given how Delgado had already burnt through them by the time we saw him on screen.
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Post by davygallagher on Dec 22, 2019 12:10:27 GMT
'First Master' idea: (but it includes a 1DAs spoiler so) {Spoiler} In 1DAs vol 1, the Master operates his TARDIS without the outer shell in place and manipulates the universe of Space/Time instead of moving his Ship.
Who knows what damage that insanely reckless behaviour causes to his own timeline? Maybe he was the First Master, but afterwards, he isn't?
(I quite like it so that makes it a good theory  And yes I get that's it's become a running joke, this idea is just a bit of fun  ) When's UNIT Vol 3 coming out? Maybe there'll be a future story where Sam Kigart's Unbound Master somehow regenerates into Delgado, wouldn't that put the cat among the pigeons?  Would have the TARDIS Wiki police working double duty! Though given their rather stupid stance over the Vienna range I couldn't care less about what those folks think about continuity!
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
Likes: 2,973
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Post by dorney on Dec 22, 2019 12:18:55 GMT
I was joking. Thing is, I do absolutely understand why people think it’s the first Master. It’s something that often happens with stories - people go with the information they get quite early on (the two stories of mine I think people get wrong are Iceni - which isn’t a ‘you can’t change history’ story - and Assassination Games - which isn’t a C-M story more than a Who, for just this reason: opinions made in the first few minutes), so the press release seems to trump the actual content of the audios in question. I’m just saying I’m not really sure where that marketing spiel came from. I suspect it may just have been an assumption or the wrong end of the stick from a different department. And as I’ve said elsewhere - he still could be, don’t get me wrong. But if there hasn’t been much made of him as ‘the first Master’ there’s a reason for that. Absolutely, the joke is implicit, don't worry - but you've brought it up enough to show it is something that does peeve you just a wee bit to take as text something you know to be not part of the character's essential core better than most having worked on him. You can be amused and a bit miffed at the same time here - we frequently are with some posters  Interesting points about your stories though. I'd say the difference between those stories of yours that may be mis-read are they're thematic issues. You'd have to listen and make up your own mind as to the message of Iceni or whether Assassination is more CM or Who but Dreyfus being either the first Master or not is surely a bit more binary, a bit more either/or than those examples. Frankly given real-world developments I wouldn't be surprised if we never hear anything further of it anyway, regardless of whether we would have done if James didn't go on his rants online. I said at the time there didn't seem to really be any need for him to be first other than a rather easy reason of keeping the timelines of him and The Doctor from getting too tangled, but even then he only had to be pre-Delgado rather than the very first given how Delgado had already burnt through them by the time we saw him on screen. Oh, I’m definitely a little frustrated. Just not with listeners where it’s an utterly understandable position! Although I’d absolutely say that the Iceni and TAG thing are equally as binary.
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
Likes: 2,973
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Post by dorney on Dec 22, 2019 12:25:04 GMT
As an aside - it’s worth mentioning that ‘first’ is ambiguous. Is that first incarnation, first to call himself Master or first the Doctor meets in continuity.
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Post by number13 on Dec 22, 2019 12:27:14 GMT
'First Master' idea: (but it includes a 1DAs spoiler so) {Spoiler} In 1DAs vol 1, the Master operates his TARDIS without the outer shell in place and manipulates the universe of Space/Time instead of moving his Ship.
Who knows what damage that insanely reckless behaviour causes to his own timeline? Maybe he was the First Master, but afterwards, he isn't?
(I quite like it so that makes it a good theory  And yes I get that's it's become a running joke, this idea is just a bit of fun  ) When's UNIT Vol 3 coming out? Maybe there'll be a future story where Sam Kigart's Unbound Master somehow regenerates into Delgado, wouldn't that put the cat among the pigeons?  Would have the TARDIS Wiki police working double duty! Though given their rather stupid stance over the Vienna range I couldn't care less about those folks! UNIT Vol 3 did come out, I think. But it was too experimental for my liking. All four CDs, filled with the sound of silence. I guess the idea was that, as listeners, we always supply the pictures and this time we were supposed to supply the sound too. BF at their most daring, but ultimately not a successful idea imo.
I don't remember any of the plot I imagined and I can't find the CDs or DLs or my backups so -
Sorry, what was I on about? Oh, you mentioned UNIT Vol 3 ? Yes, another one in the same place as 'Jekyll and Hyde' and the final Charlotte Pollard I suppose. Bad luck on anyone who pre-ordered - whatever it was.
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Post by davygallagher on Dec 22, 2019 12:28:42 GMT
As an aside - it’s worth mentioning that ‘first’ is ambiguous. Is that first incarnation, first to call himself Master or first the Doctor meets in continuity. I'll ask someone in publicity or marketing to clear it up for us all. 
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Post by davygallagher on Dec 22, 2019 12:35:28 GMT
When's UNIT Vol 3 coming out? Maybe there'll be a future story where Sam Kigart's Unbound Master somehow regenerates into Delgado, wouldn't that put the cat among the pigeons?  Would have the TARDIS Wiki police working double duty! Though given their rather stupid stance over the Vienna range I couldn't care less about those folks! UNIT Vol 3 did come out, I think. But it was too experimental for my liking. All four CDs, filled with the sound of silence. I guess the idea was that, as listeners, we always supply the pictures and this time we were supposed to supply the sound too. BF at their most daring, but ultimately not a successful idea imo.
I don't remember any of the plot I imagined and I can't find the CDs or DLs or my backups so -
Sorry, what was I on about? Oh, you mentioned UNIT Vol 3 ? Yes, another one in the same place as 'Jekyll and Hyde' and the final Charlotte Pollard I suppose. Bad luck on anyone who pre-ordered - whatever it was.
Don't mention Hyde and Charley....you'll set off the anti-Briggs alarm!  I'd have stuck with The Steamie, that wasn't anything to do with Nick!
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ljwilson
Chancellery Guard
It's tangerine....not orange
Likes: 5,059
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Post by ljwilson on Dec 22, 2019 12:37:02 GMT
TAG not a Counter Measures story?! I'm off for a lie down. Either way, merry Christmas John and thanks for the fab stories.
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mbt66
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,966
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Post by mbt66 on Dec 22, 2019 12:57:38 GMT
I mean, it’s just to wind me up now, isn’t it? Honestly, no, I don't think anyone is - they're just going by the original BF announcement that he was indeed the first Master. Why would they read that a few years ago and think anything differently, unless they'd seen you post about it here? It's BF you should be frustrated at for not co-ordinating rather than posters just going on good faith by what they were told when being asked to part with their money. I've no idea what Matt Fitton and Guy Adams think about the "First Master" thing as writers on that set where the initial news story came from but it surely didn't just pop out of nowhere. Someone must have had the idea that Dreyfus was indeed the first. And it's not like a one word ambiguous typo in a news release once, they even interviewed James about how he felt playing the first incarnation of the character here: www.bigfinish.com/news/v/james-dreyfus-is-the-masterThe marketing of Dreyfus as the First Master in a story with the First Doctor was what convinced me to bicycle that first volume. I was disappointed as I was expecting some ambiguity between them, but Dreyfus’ Master was very generic and a boring incarnation in comparison to Big Finish’s “first” Master - Alex Macqueen
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Post by fitzoliverj on Dec 22, 2019 15:32:40 GMT
Oh, and here's a mystery for somebody to solve. The second Doctor expresses surprise that the Master is the Master, because he said he thought the Master had died. But, assuming the summary is anything to go by, that's not how "The Destination Wars" ends.
(Possible, and very silly solution - this is a pretty advanced story for Jamie, I feel - I'm not so sure he'd be this used to travelling in time so early in his time in the TARDIS. So, let's say that this actually takes place in Season 6b! That way, the Doctor could be referring to the Master getting stuck in a black hole in "The Dark Path", and lo and behold, Dorney's right, this is no longer the first Master at all!)
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Post by shallacatop on Dec 22, 2019 16:51:19 GMT
I feel Big Finish made a mistake not taking advantage of him being the First Master. He’s just an alternative to Delgado for the earlier incarnations. Well, as I’ve said before, as script editor on some of his scripts, him being ‘the First’ was a surprise to me. I think that’s something you should speak to whoever does the Big Finish press releases about. I don’t think it matters if he’s the first incarnation, the first the Doctor meets or the first that decides to go by “The Master”. The point I’m making is that there’s nothing new or original about him. He strikes me as being generic and just a way to get around not having the Delgado Master to face against the first two Doctors. There’s potential in there, it’s just not utilised. And I find that to be a shame. But it’s each to their own; I’m guessing you don’t agree because you’d presumably try to make the most out of that potential as script editor. That’s fine, though!
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