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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2020 2:20:02 GMT
The worst that can happen? Making a one-off magical moment seem less important by losing it's uniqueness. Sometimes lightning in a bottle is something to just be treasured, not replicated. The uniqueness is part of the appeal. As I said above, I'm 20 years in so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt but I think people have put their thoughts eloquently and politely. Dismissing it as "all the angst" doesn't do anyone credit. There hasn't been much dummy spitting that I've seen. And - hey - if we're on it.. Jurassic Park's three characters lost a lot of their impact by coming back for massively inferior sequels that were atrocious. Ian Malcolm was totally out of character in The Lost World and Alan Grant was a waste in Jurassic Park III. Maybe that's as much a lesson as out of context quotes. And wasn't Jurassic Park all about the present being remarkable enough without needing to bring back things that have had their day, as remarkable as they were first time round? Seems like someone could make a lazy parallel here... Now Stranded I'm sure will be excellent in it's own different ways to what's come before and maybe the use of the Curator will indeed be wonderful. In fact, there's every chance it will be. Yet by making the unique Curator into a repeated character it does take the luster off, I think even if the story is strong. You just can't ever, remotely, get the impact we had of that communal cinematic experience with audiences all over the world seeing Tom's beautiful return. I mean, BF know that, of course, but hey, if it sells more for them - job done. And Paul and Tom do have great chemistry. As I say this is an odd one for me as usually, and people will know from my years on this and the old forum over a decade, I'm a believer that the "gimmick" is irrelevant and only the story matters. I'm always the "let's hear it first..." kinda guy and I never pre-judge. I don't moan when River pops up somewhere else, or something repeats from another range. I still give the story the chance to win me over. Yet this really is the first time in years - decades - when I've felt just on hearing the headline news quite deflated. Fair enough Davy, and to be clear to everyone (since my post has been deleted and also some others I missed reading, going by the gap in the thread timeline) I wasn't 'dismissing' the debate by describing it as 'all the angst', as in 'all the the deep anxiety'; I was saying (and did say) I didn't get all the angst - as in I didn't understand it.
Yes, Tom's appearance in the 50th as an inexplicable character was a moment of magic and I was actually moved to a silly little tear at seeing my second TV Doctor pop up again in official BBC content after so so long. But, he's still playing a character and if BF have been licensed to include and expand that character in their content I really don't understand why people would object. Especially after all the gaps filled, never-met characters meeting, 'irreplacable' actors recast and so on.
It's a failure of imagination on my part, no doubt, but at the end of the day 'Doctor Who' is a TV show, the characters are played by actors and BF have a business to run and ideas to come up with. A few years back I thought for a second or two about how I felt when they announced the recast of 'my' Doctor - replacing the one and only Jon Pertwee with another actor.
Initially and briefly I thought 'no that's just wrong'. Then I told myself not to be so daft and ordered it. And five volumes later (with Nicholas Courtney's wonderful Brig recast too) I love the range BF have produced, allowing the Third Doctor era to live again as full-cast drama, and I'm looking forward to Vol 6. Now I want Mike Yates back too.
With that Pertwee Rubicon crossed, for me it was 'anything goes' in the world of BF Who (though I did twitch a bit at the full First Doctor crew recast - but I enjoy that range too.) So I don't understand all the angst about including the Curator. People seem actually genuinely unhappy, not in the usual 'oh now they're having Jack meet River' sort of way, but as if this is something personal and precious that BF will 'spoil'.
Sorry if I've upset people (and if I set off a string of posts which needed deleting - that does bother me, I missed the fallout if there was any.)
But I trust BF not to mess things up and above all, I enjoy Who, TV and audio, as a fun relaxing background to life. It's fun to talk about it and the Whoniverse as if it's all real and the detail of what happened in story X and why, and what it means and why I love this or that story and what fun it all is, but it's all part of the game and maybe I don't care enough?
I said once before that even when young, 'Doctor Who' was a TV show to me. I watched it and never missed it if I could help it, I read the Target books and I enjoyed it loads. And later I was delighted to get the videos and thrilled when some missing episodes arrived. (And now I enjoy learning the production details etc. too, like cricket stats for sci-fi!) But I never got in deeper than that; no fanzines, no clubs, no conventions, no signed pictures, no writing my own stories, no memorabilia, no costumes, not even one toy Dalek.
Maybe I never have cared enough. Nothing I can do about that.
No, no - your posts never started any kind of issue! You put your thoughts down and others did in kind - as you say..some since deleted ones aren't worth distracting from an actual interesting debate and conversation. There's no "right" way to be a fan. Some will find it through the stories and that's it. Others like us through extra media (obviously mainly audio!), some through cosplay and conventions and some through memorabilia (I don't have room for that kind of stuff!) And any kind of "gatekeeping" about opinions mattering more because they come from a more "devoted" fan is nonsense. Someone who has only seen one episode of the show has as much right to an opinion on it as someone informed by hundreds of books, comics and thousands of audios. As I said to Audio, I DO trust BF to not mess anything up with the set either. The storytelling isn't my issue. It's literally, in 20 years of stories the first time I'm felt "Not sure about that...." on reading the headline. Literally the first so I'm certainly not someone stuck in my ways saying things can't be fluid, and I personally enjoy how bonkers BF can get. We are the choir - we may as well be preached to! Fan service to a mass audience is one thing but we're more in depth. Even though you're downplaying your own fandom a bit you've got knowledge of so many audios and you're loving the features on the blurays and whatnot. So we're (and almost all of us on this forum) much bigger fans than the casual audience just by default of listening to BF, spinoff media. I mean I guess the difference between this and say the 1DAs and 3DAs is, in essence, they're part of the continuing adventures of the First and Third Docs we know already. There's no real difference between than and most of BF's output wheras the Curator isn't tangibly part of anything. He was an Easter Egg, a wonderful little moment...maybe almost frozen in time like a painting to go back to his episode! I would honestly hate - and I mean hate - to think you took anything from my posts saying you, or anyone excited about the Curator, is someone who doesn't care enough about why it clearly does have a little bit of a pedestal that it's been placed on since 2013. It's all entirely subjective and there's no right or wrong. I bet at BF there were differing opinions too. As always...it's todays news and tomorrow's chip papers - the release will come out..hopefully knock us all for six and we'll forget why it seemed important in the first place to even have the debate! But I don't think you should feel in any way responsible for any deleted posts that took things on tangents. Not your responsibility and you didn't post them! And neither did I. We're being the good boys for once! We've agreed on an awful lot these past few months. I don't know what's going on frankly!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2020 16:11:11 GMT
Interested in what Clive Woods role will be in this so far uncredited on the production credits
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mbt66
Chancellery Guard
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Post by mbt66 on Feb 16, 2020 17:06:31 GMT
I am intrigued by their shadows, could their be something to the fact they look...like shadows/smoke rather than reflections? Obviously it could just be a design decision, but I wondered if it could be relevant to the stories..?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2020 17:12:47 GMT
I am intrigued by their shadows, could their be something to the fact they look...like shadows/smoke rather than reflections? Obviously it could just be a design decision, but I wondered if it could be relevant to the stories..? Rorschach test I thought
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Post by tuigirl on Feb 16, 2020 18:30:18 GMT
I am intrigued by their shadows, could their be something to the fact they look...like shadows/smoke rather than reflections? Obviously it could just be a design decision, but I wondered if it could be relevant to the stories..? Rorschach test I thought Great idea!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2020 19:05:54 GMT
It does make sense in a way and an interesting historical figure to meet
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Post by tuigirl on Feb 16, 2020 19:27:19 GMT
It does make sense in a way and an interesting historical figure to meet You might be onto something. Maybe we get some deep character pieces and get to see the darker and nastier sides of the characters. I do love dark and nasty 8, one of the reasons Caerdroia was a so amazing.
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Post by project37 on Feb 16, 2020 19:28:16 GMT
For me personally, The Curator is one of those "less is more" ideas. He was such a wonderful surprise on television and a beautifully vague question mark, reflecting on the Doctor's lives as we'd seen them and resetting the mystery of "Doctor Who?" as we marked 50 years with an eye toward the future.
I get why he's a fun toy to add to the BF toybox, but I'm personally content to leave him be. That said, I hope his return is a success for those who are excited about it.
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Post by mrperson on Feb 16, 2020 22:58:59 GMT
I took "the Curator's" lines as as direct a statement "yes, I am future you" as one could make without saying those precise words. So which every story(ies) he's in might as well be considered multi-doc stories.
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Post by number13 on Feb 17, 2020 1:43:00 GMT
EDIT: I put my post replying to the earlier conversation and quotes within spoiler tags so people won't fall over its huge, bloated, off-topic bulk as they read this thread about the next 8DAs Fair enough Davy, and to be clear to everyone (since my post has been deleted and also some others I missed reading, going by the gap in the thread timeline) I wasn't 'dismissing' the debate by describing it as 'all the angst', as in 'all the the deep anxiety'; I was saying (and did say) I didn't get all the angst - as in I didn't understand it. Yes, Tom's appearance in the 50th as an inexplicable character was a moment of magic and I was actually moved to a silly little tear at seeing my second TV Doctor pop up again in official BBC content after so so long. But, he's still playing a character and if BF have been licensed to include and expand that character in their content I really don't understand why people would object. Especially after all the gaps filled, never-met characters meeting, 'irreplacable' actors recast and so on. It's a failure of imagination on my part, no doubt, but at the end of the day 'Doctor Who' is a TV show, the characters are played by actors and BF have a business to run and ideas to come up with. A few years back I thought for a second or two about how I felt when they announced the recast of 'my' Doctor - replacing the one and only Jon Pertwee with another actor. Initially and briefly I thought 'no that's just wrong'. Then I told myself not to be so daft and ordered it. And five volumes later (with Nicholas Courtney's wonderful Brig recast too) I love the range BF have produced, allowing the Third Doctor era to live again as full-cast drama, and I'm looking forward to Vol 6. Now I want Mike Yates back too.
With that Pertwee Rubicon crossed, for me it was 'anything goes' in the world of BF Who (though I did twitch a bit at the full First Doctor crew recast - but I enjoy that range too.) So I don't understand all the angst about including the Curator. People seem actually genuinely unhappy, not in the usual 'oh now they're having Jack meet River' sort of way, but as if this is something personal and precious that BF will 'spoil'. Sorry if I've upset people (and if I set off a string of posts which needed deleting - that does bother me, I missed the fallout if there was any.) But I trust BF not to mess things up and above all, I enjoy Who, TV and audio, as a fun relaxing background to life. It's fun to talk about it and the Whoniverse as if it's all real and the detail of what happened in story X and why, and what it means and why I love this or that story and what fun it all is, but it's all part of the game and maybe I don't care enough? I said once before that even when young, 'Doctor Who' was a TV show to me. I watched it and never missed it if I could help it, I read the Target books and I enjoyed it loads. And later I was delighted to get the videos and thrilled when some missing episodes arrived. (And now I enjoy learning the production details etc. too, like cricket stats for sci-fi!) But I never got in deeper than that; no fanzines, no clubs, no conventions, no signed pictures, no writing my own stories, no memorabilia, no costumes, not even one toy Dalek. Maybe I never have cared enough. Nothing I can do about that.
No, no - your posts never started any kind of issue! You put your thoughts down and others did in kind - as you say..some since deleted ones aren't worth distracting from an actual interesting debate and conversation. There's no "right" way to be a fan. Some will find it through the stories and that's it. Others like us through extra media (obviously mainly audio!), some through cosplay and conventions and some through memorabilia (I don't have room for that kind of stuff!) And any kind of "gatekeeping" about opinions mattering more because they come from a more "devoted" fan is nonsense. Someone who has only seen one episode of the show has as much right to an opinion on it as someone informed by hundreds of books, comics and thousands of audios. As I said to Audio, I DO trust BF to not mess anything up with the set either. The storytelling isn't my issue. It's literally, in 20 years of stories the first time I'm felt "Not sure about that...." on reading the headline. Literally the first so I'm certainly not someone stuck in my ways saying things can't be fluid, and I personally enjoy how bonkers BF can get. We are the choir - we may as well be preached to! Fan service to a mass audience is one thing but we're more in depth. Even though you're downplaying your own fandom a bit you've got knowledge of so many audios and you're loving the features on the blurays and whatnot. So we're (and almost all of us on this forum) much bigger fans than the casual audience just by default of listening to BF, spinoff media. I mean I guess the difference between this and say the 1DAs and 3DAs is, in essence, they're part of the continuing adventures of the First and Third Docs we know already. There's no real difference between than and most of BF's output wheras the Curator isn't tangibly part of anything. He was an Easter Egg, a wonderful little moment...maybe almost frozen in time like a painting to go back to his episode! I would honestly hate - and I mean hate - to think you took anything from my posts saying you, or anyone excited about the Curator, is someone who doesn't care enough about why it clearly does have a little bit of a pedestal that it's been placed on since 2013. It's all entirely subjective and there's no right or wrong. I bet at BF there were differing opinions too. As always...it's todays news and tomorrow's chip papers - the release will come out..hopefully knock us all for six and we'll forget why it seemed important in the first place to even have the debate! But I don't think you should feel in any way responsible for any deleted posts that took things on tangents. Not your responsibility and you didn't post them! And neither did I. We're being the good boys for once! We've agreed on an awful lot these past few months. I don't know what's going on frankly! Thanks Davy - I can't ever shake the feeling I'm a bit of a fraud or at least a 'bluffer' when I say I'm 'a fan' - because almost all I know of the background to TV Who dates back a whole six years, max, to 2013 and 'The Night of the Doctor'. (Yes, 'Night'. I enjoyed 'Day of the Doctor' but it was suddenly seeing Karn and the Sisterhood again that rolled back time in a quite startling way.) Before that amazing moment I'd been more or less AWOL for the best part of 20 years while the videos gathered dust except for a very rare view of an old favourite and my only Who was tiny amounts of audio on BBCR7, as R4X was then, and watching the new series with longish gaps even in that. So I may be an older fan from S8 in 1971, but a very inconstant one. Once I got back in and built my DVD collection, I enjoyed the stories again of course, and found a whole new pleasure from discovering the backstory of how it was all done. As you've mentioned, I do really enjoy the special features especially on the technical side - the stories of filming, the studio footage, the production notes etc. I like to know the 'nuts and bolts' of things which interest me, not only Who, but in the field of media, classic Who is astonishing for the wealth of background resources on every release. BF was a whole new universe starting from 'The Light at the End' - not just their Who but the rest. I've always loved audio drama and grew up with R4 as my soundtrack; I wish so much that I'd started buying BF before I did, but catching up on 20 years has its own pleasures: a nearly unlimited back catalogue and lots of lovely sales! And please don't think that I took any of your other post the wrong way, I didn't. Perhaps because The Curator appeared at the exact same time that I got back into enjoying classic 'Doctor Who' is why, although seeing Tom appear was very special indeed, the idea of the character of the Curator being so unique that he would never be seen again didn't occur to me. Maybe the full significance was lost on me a bit in the fun of rediscovering classic Who after so many years?
As for why we keep agreeing - ah you noticed that? Obviously, this isn't really me any more and that was your clue; the Zygon operation is almost complete... blending in, finding harmony, keeping quiet. EDIT: Apologies all, gone way off-topic and taken up a load of space too. Good job the thread is bigger on the inside.
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 19, 2020 15:43:43 GMT
I like the yellow cover - refreshingly different
As for the more substantive debate about the Curator - I think this was one itch best left unscratched to preserve the ambiguity and excitement of the 50th anniversary. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, etc …
However, I accept the point made by many that it might turn out to be good
The biggest gripe for me is that this likely means yet more implausible amnesia for Eight
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Post by Digi on Feb 19, 2020 16:36:27 GMT
There doesn’t seem to be much mention in this thread that the Curator’s appearance may well be completely enigmatic here too. It’s entirely possible he only shows up in one episode and shares his scene(s) only with Helen to lend a helping hand to Eight, without ever revealing who he is or why he’s helping—and never once crosses paths with Eight, like how most of River’s appearances in the Eight range don’t actually have them interact.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2020 17:45:37 GMT
There doesn’t seem to be much mention in this thread that the Curator’s appearance may well be completely enigmatic here too. It’s entirely possible he only shows up in one episode and shares his scene(s) only with Helen to lend a helping hand to Eight, without ever revealing who he is or why he’s helping—and never once crosses paths with Eight, like how most of River’s appearances in the Eight range don’t actually have them interact. I, and others, have acknowledged just that though. It's not us saying "But they'll ruin it by explaining everything" - I think we all trust BF more than that - it's more "Some things are so precious because they're unique". I'm skeptical but not closed minded. I'm sure it'll be really good drama either way but I think some of us kinda like the, maybe overly romanticised, notion that some things are best not touched on. I preferred the Time War for example when it was something that human minds couldn't conceive of yet in spite of that I loved Day Of The Doctor and a lot of BF's Time War output..
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dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
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Post by dorney on Feb 20, 2020 12:52:36 GMT
The biggest gripe for me is that this likely means yet more implausible amnesia for Eight Everyone said that about Day of the Master too. And look ma, no mind-wipe!
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Post by mark687 on Feb 20, 2020 13:04:37 GMT
The biggest gripe for me is that this likely means yet more implausible amnesia for Eight Everyone said that about Day of the Master too. And look ma, no mind-wipe! Everyone keeps forgetting what Helen did for a living Regards mark687
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lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
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Post by lidar2 on Feb 20, 2020 13:05:52 GMT
Everyone said that about Day of the Master too. And look ma, no mind-wipe! Everyone keeps forgetting what Helen did for a living Regards mark687 That makes it sound like she did something very disreputable!
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Post by mark687 on Feb 20, 2020 13:21:34 GMT
Everyone keeps forgetting what Helen did for a living Regards mark687 That makes it sound like she did something very disreputable! No Pun was intended! LOL Regards mark687
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2020 19:51:37 GMT
This relates to both this thread discussion regarding 'The Curator', and of course the current series. A very apt extract from DWM in 1980 whereby Graham Williams and Tom Baker discuss fan criticism, openness to change and preoccupations with chronology. It's just got worse these past 40 years, that's all. ( Gian Sammarco as the Whizz Kid in 'The Greatest Show in the Galaxy' was a timely 25th anniversary two fingers from JNT to the phenomenon, without actually breaking the fourth wall): Courtesy of twitter.com/doctorwho1980s aka twitter.com/spankybackpack
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2020 0:37:53 GMT
This relates to both this thread discussion regarding 'The Curator', and of course the current series. A very apt extract from DWM in 1980 whereby Graham Williams and Tom Baker discuss fan criticism, openness to change and preoccupations with chronology. It's just got worse these past 40 years, that's all. ( Gian Sammarco as the Whizz Kid in 'The Greatest Show in the Galaxy' was a timely 25th anniversary two fingers from JNT to the phenomenon, without actually breaking the fourth wall): Courtesy of twitter.com/doctorwho1980s aka twitter.com/spankybackpackI actually think that's massively reductive in light of some reasoned and well argued points being made and far from being very apt is almost completely irrelevant in the context of what we're actually talking about here regarding Stranded. It's apples and oranges. And honestly I don't think it's relevant about the new series threads either since most, almost all, of the posts about every new episode have been positive and of the opinion S12 has been terrific. We're all Doctor Who fans and I'd like to think rather open to ideas because of it. Saying because we have a trepidation because of one aspect of the show's past being used again we're stuck in the idealised past, or akin to Whizzkid? Because one thing in 20 years of listening (one!) makes us go "Not sure I like that idea..."? That's nonsense, sorry. Graham and Tom were talking about making the future of the show for a mass audience. We're clearly not. Doctor Who's success or failure doesn't hinge on Stranded. Remember there was also a time, not that long ago when Tom was just as likely to say "No, been there...done that", a la Eccleston, when the subject of Who came up. Was he also just living for his own idealised past by refusing to embrace a new future for years? MASSIVE difference between thinking the show should be preserved in amber during your own favourite era and thinking "actually, The Curator...that's one little thing that was perfect as it was and I got everything I need from it". Doesn't make us Who-luddites. Rather condescending to say "You people who don't like this idea or the new series? You're like Whizz Kid" - a cartoonish geek parody.
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Post by Digi on Feb 22, 2020 0:54:15 GMT
That interview actually puts me in mind of Star Wars and Star Trek fans, rather than Doctor Who fans.
EDIT: I feel that perhaps I should clarify here that I'm a huge fan of all three, so that wasn't intended as me throwing shade at anyone in particular. Just an observation of fandoms that I participate in.
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