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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 1:27:37 GMT
Perhaps, perhaps. Ahhh, let's hope. There's an awful lot of talent floating about 'ere forums. I'd love to see it make the leap. Ooh, talking of the Moffat Years, this is something I've wanted to see since Capaldi took over the role: I've always wanted a coalition of outcasts, renegades and dispossessed -- Gallifrey's exiles -- press-ganged together into trying to form a new Homeworld. From scratch, with limited resources and mixed results. Something not entirely unlike the Gods of the Fourth from Death Comes to Time. A coterie that's desperately trying to revive a civilisation that they themselves rejected because the cosmos needs it for the sake of balance. Funny. The idea I wanted from the Moffat years was for him to pick up the thread laid out by the Curator of letting the Doctor know Gallifrey was still out there. I loved the idea of the first 50 years of the show having the Doctor run away from his home world only to flip it on the anniversary to have the Doctor go on a quest to find and save his home planet. Snap. That's what I was hoping for too. Something similar to Capaldi's first year, except that the further "down" through the strata of Time he went, the odder the stories would get. I think that's where I originally got the idea of a Doctor and companion trapped in a storybook (I remember the magnificent "The Girl Who Was Death" from The Prisoner was a strong influence). TO me itfeels like it's too early to say what is and isn't the Doctor's new history. The Master is an unreliable narrator and the Matrix is compromised and unreliable too. The redaction is obvoously an important point they'll be returning to, so at a guess, we're at the end of the second act with a lot more exposition and revelas to come, and we'll get led around the garden path all next season with hints and revelations and at the end we'll find out that canon is whatever we want it to be. Yeah, there's been some really interesting discrepancies pointed out with the information we've been given thus far. Including, most jarringly, the police box guise that the Ruth!Doctor's TARDIS has. I'm a big believer in the Sliding Scale of Lore. "Always" can be an incredibly powerful word, but it's not quite as interesting as the idea that some of these apparently straight lines have an added dimension we're not seeing. Not immediately. The example I like to pull out of storage is Shada. Two Doctors, largely the same story, which is canon? Well, both can be. Before The Five Doctors altered history, the Fourth Doctor, Romana and K9 solved the mystery at St. Cedd's. After the timeline was tampered, that version of history was erased, but the Web of Time readjusted events to suit causality. The Eighth Doctor returned with Romana and K9 to carry out their place in established history. Two versions. Both valid, both occurring, but on either side of one story. More deliberately, in the case of the Time Lords, is the question of Season 6B. Not whether or not it happened, but whether or not it originally happened. Did we lose a season between one Doctor and the next? Or, did Gallifrey of the Fifth/Sixth Doctor's time deliberately alter history for their own ends? We've possible evidence of either explanation.
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Post by agentten on Mar 3, 2020 6:38:51 GMT
I wanted to let this percolate a bit, and I'm still thinking about the episode a lot, but here are some thoughts:
- First, I think what I'm most astonished about is that someone canonized the Morbius Doctors theory. This struck me most because waaaayyy back during the Wilderness Years when I first became a Who fan, the Morbius Doctors theory is one of the first meta theories about the show that I came across and because Doctor Who was so new and exciting for me, I really loved the idea that there could be so many Doctors that viewers didn't even know about yet. Decades later, that's now come to pass and that's pretty neat to me.
- It seems that the Time Lords didn't grant The Doctor anything he didn't already have in The Time of The Doctor when it appeared he was infused with new regenerations. I wonder how much role they played in it, though. Did they somehow unlock something in him to allow it, or did we just assume, as he did, that they had something to do with it when they may have simply been witnesses to an event beyond their control? Has the Doctor interacted with previous selves like Ruth without knowing it? Did Clara interact with other Doctors and have her memories wiped, or was her event limited to a single regeneration cycle? What was really happening when the Time Lords censured the Doctor, forcing a regeneration and isolating him on Earth? Was there more experimenting between The War Games and Spearhead From Space? More mind wipes? Does this put season 6B into a whole new context? And perhaps the most baffling question of all: Does all the hinting about Graham possibly being the Doctor actually mean something other than some fun winks at the audience?
- I'll be thinking it over more, but this trilogy of episodes is probably going to emerge as my favorite depiction of the Cybermen so far, narrowly edging out Earthshock. I found them really terrifying and intimidating in this story.
- I really, really love this iteration of The Master. I love the take on him as this rage-filled, capering madman who tries to commit suicide by Doctor, destroying himself and the Doctor in the process. And I love that the shrink ray has made a major comeback.
- Even with more development this season, I'd still been waiting for Yaz to finally land as a character, and she did in this episode. I finally feel like I know what she's about after this season and her place in the Fam is clear to me.
- The revelations in this episode open up a lot of interesting potentials, in my opinion. I'm looking forward to discovering where this era's story line is going next. I know a big change to canon like this is going to be controversial in a fandom, but my gut reaction is that this will provide a lot of interesting new opportunities.
- I was one who enjoyed last season, even if it wasn't the best Who I've ever seen I still found it fun and entertaining, but this season is such a dramatic shift upward that it's been really mind blowing.
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Post by Jeedai on Mar 3, 2020 7:06:17 GMT
A thought on Clara's time clones...
Clara only went down the section of the Doctor's timeline that the Great Intelligence attacked, and he only knew about One through Eleven (probably not War, though). So my guess is that's where her involvement with the Doctor's past ends.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 3, 2020 7:18:22 GMT
A thought on Clara's time clones... Clara only went down the section of the Doctor's timeline that the Great Intelligence attacked, and he only knew about One through Eleven (probably not War, though). So my guess is that's where her involvement with the Doctor's past ends. Given she categorically says she doesn’t know War, and he’s part of the Hartnell sequence I think her not knowing anyone from the Hinchliffe sequence is acceptable within the framework provided.
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Post by ollychops on Mar 3, 2020 7:50:52 GMT
Despite the new revelation, I still don't consider the Morbius Doctors to be canon, because why on Earth would the Fourth Doctor upon seeing past incarnations of himself that he doesn't remember not question that at all? So until they explicitly say that they're the Doctor's incarnations, then I'm still considering them Morbius' past incarnations.
Also, I've been thinking why I dislike this arc so much over another arc I wasn't a fan of - the Hybrid from Series 9. I didn't really like where the Hybrid stuff went in S9, but despite that, the finale at least had a lot of character, sparkling dialogue and actually made me feel something, so even though I didn't like the outcome, I could overlook it because I enjoyed the ride.
Skip to the Timeless Children, and the characterisation was messy, the companions got nothing to do (and arguably, Thirteen for the most part), the writing was bland, and it didn't make me feel anything. I enjoyed the ride for the first part, but by the second part I just wanted to get off, so I can't even say this revelation was worth it for the fun ride I had because it wasn't fun.
And it comes to something when Chibnall has the Master, Cybermen/CyberLords, Time Lord history, a big reveal, and with all of that the episode still somehow manages to be boring.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 3, 2020 8:20:29 GMT
Does this lay open another thing? The Third Doctor, despite knowing that he is the "Third" Doctor, keeps saying he is thousands of years old. Yes, IRL writers not paying attention to continuity, but in universe is something leaking out from previous blocked memories that tells him he's a lot older that around 300 plus years (Given 4 says he's in his 400s)? He never says this to another Timelord (Yep. He's still a Timelod, just not a Gallifreyan), who might have said, "Hang on, Theta Sigma! I went to primary school with you and I know that's bobbins", just to humans who wouldn't question that in the right way.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 3, 2020 8:22:26 GMT
Does this lay open another thing? The Third Doctor, despite knowing that he is the "Third" Doctor, keeps saying he is thousands of years old. Yes, IRL writers not paying attention to continuity, but in universe is something leaking out from previous blocked memories that tells him he's a lot older that around 300 plus years (Given 4 says he's in his 400s)? He never says this to another Timelord (Yep. He's still a Timelod, just not a Gallifreyan), who might have said, "Hang on, Theta Sigma! I went to primary school with you and I know that's bobbins", just to humans who wouldn't question that in the right way. Except that it’s simple to force a regeneration, make it a child and mind-wipe them. Dump thrm in an Orphanage and off you go.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 3, 2020 8:32:28 GMT
Does this lay open another thing? The Third Doctor, despite knowing that he is the "Third" Doctor, keeps saying he is thousands of years old. Yes, IRL writers not paying attention to continuity, but in universe is something leaking out from previous blocked memories that tells him he's a lot older that around 300 plus years (Given 4 says he's in his 400s)? He never says this to another Timelord (Yep. He's still a Timelod, just not a Gallifreyan), who might have said, "Hang on, Theta Sigma! I went to primary school with you and I know that's bobbins", just to humans who wouldn't question that in the right way. Except that it’s simple to force a regeneration, make it a child and mind-wipe them. Dump thrm in an Orphanage and off you go. Agreed. As far as we know. But that doesn't answer leakage. Since Two's forced regeneration into Three didn't do this perhaps it wasn't as effective as it should have been? "We leave him his memories of One and Two but take out the ability to use his Tardis. Easy peasy lemon squeezy." Except that needed more precision than wiping everything away and making Three a new One. All lovely speculation and us as fans seeing this as a possibility to address inconsistencies in the previous lore. Lore is a term I prefer over canon. As for Doctor Ruth's Tardis looking like a police Box? Another possibility I suggest: "13: Why does your Tardis look like my Police box Tardis? Dr Ruth: Oh, is that how it appeared to you? Telepathic circuits recognising you probably." Now the next thing for Chibnall to address is the "Terror of the UNIT dating mystery!"
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 3, 2020 9:44:25 GMT
My personal Ruth TARDIS theory is that the TARDIS’s always been eccentric with an obsession with boxes and rhe colour blue. Once it gets wind of what it’s future self is wearing it copied it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 10:01:05 GMT
I feel that people here are putting far more effort into trying to join the dots through their own personal head canon, than the 'writing team' of this episode did. I predicted prior to transmission on this thread that it would be exposition heavy, with too much dialogue and poor drama, which would not be appealing to the core audience of its time slot. That seems to have been the case and it is sad that it could have been proven so predictable, by so many. I wholeheartedly agree with this review, by Patrick Mulkern in the Radio Times: www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-02/doctor-who-the-timeless-children-review/
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 12:04:15 GMT
I feel that people here are putting far more effort into trying to join the dots through their own personal head canon, than the 'writing team' of this episode did. I predicted prior to transmission on this thread that it would be exposition heavy, with too much dialogue and poor drama, which would not be appealing to the core audience of its time slot. That seems to have been the case and it is sad that it could have been proven so predictable, by so many. I wholeheartedly agree with this review, by Patrick Mulkern in the Radio Times: www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-02/doctor-who-the-timeless-children-review/ '(Needs) a lengthy rest' .... 'old hat on a good day' .... 'tedious cliffhanger' .... 'The Cybermen are dullness personified' .... 'I miss the Master. I mean the proper Master' .... and finally, 'What an awful, boring mess.'
It's great that everyone has different views, but really, I couldn't agree less with this review.
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Post by number13 on Mar 3, 2020 12:22:44 GMT
Was just chatting with wife about the boxset opportunities that have been opened thanks to this episode.. LOLZ.
There is the possibility now that the next volume of 'Phillip Hinchcliffe Presents' will feature himself as a TV Canon Doctor. If that actually happened it would all have been worthwhile! Come on BF, make it so!
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Post by mark687 on Mar 3, 2020 12:29:30 GMT
There is the possibility now that the next volume of 'Phillip Hinchcliffe Presents' will feature himself as a TV Canon Doctor. If that actually happened it would all have been worthwhile! Come on BF, make it so! Regards mark687
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Post by number13 on Mar 3, 2020 12:34:14 GMT
Does this lay open another thing? The Third Doctor, despite knowing that he is the "Third" Doctor, keeps saying he is thousands of years old. Yes, IRL writers not paying attention to continuity, but in universe is something leaking out from previous blocked memories that tells him he's a lot older that around 300 plus years (Given 4 says he's in his 400s)? He never says this to another Timelord (Yep. He's still a Timelod, just not a Gallifreyan), who might have said, "Hang on, Theta Sigma! I went to primary school with you and I know that's bobbins", just to humans who wouldn't question that in the right way. The Third Doctor loves to exaggerate. For example, is it really believable he's met all those people from Earth history he name-drops every other episode? I think he's joking most of the time, as I said the other day to Napoleon.
Boney, I said, old Three's a bit of a tease isn't he? 'Mais oui! And I told him so over that delicious dinner he created for me on the retreat from Moscow.'
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 3, 2020 12:56:53 GMT
I feel that people here are putting far more effort into trying to join the dots through their own personal head canon, than the 'writing team' of this episode did. I predicted prior to transmission on this thread that it would be exposition heavy, with too much dialogue and poor drama, which would not be appealing to the core audience of its time slot. That seems to have been the case and it is sad that it could have been proven so predictable, by so many. I wholeheartedly agree with this review, by Patrick Mulkern in the Radio Times: www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-02/doctor-who-the-timeless-children-review/ i miss Magnus. His cogent and eloquent debates were something else. I may need a lie down. Is Magnus actually Patrick Mulkern? What a load of guff that opinion piece is. The new and upcoming talent on Sex Education? A show so intent on selling to the US market it creates a school that only exists in the US market, and not the UK. I miss Grange Hill now. Look what that review has done to me.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 3, 2020 13:33:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 13:38:22 GMT
I feel that people here are putting far more effort into trying to join the dots through their own personal head canon, than the 'writing team' of this episode did. I predicted prior to transmission on this thread that it would be exposition heavy, with too much dialogue and poor drama, which would not be appealing to the core audience of its time slot. That seems to have been the case and it is sad that it could have been proven so predictable, by so many. I wholeheartedly agree with this review, by Patrick Mulkern in the Radio Times: www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2020-03-02/doctor-who-the-timeless-children-review/ i miss Magnus. His cogent and eloquent debates were something else. I may need a lie down. Is Magnus actually Patrick Mulkern? What a load of guff that opinion piece is. The new and upcoming talent on Sex Education? A show so intent on selling to the US market it creates a school that only exists in the US market, and not the UK. I miss Grange Hill now. Look what that review has done to me. You may disagree with him, but that does not mean he is wrong. Far from it. I would say that the most opinionated have the greatest difficulty with those who do not share the same viewpoints.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 3, 2020 14:14:19 GMT
i miss Magnus. His cogent and eloquent debates were something else. I may need a lie down. Is Magnus actually Patrick Mulkern? What a load of guff that opinion piece is. The new and upcoming talent on Sex Education? A show so intent on selling to the US market it creates a school that only exists in the US market, and not the UK. I miss Grange Hill now. Look what that review has done to me. You may disagree with him, but that does not mean he is wrong. Far from it. I would say that the most opinionated have the greatest difficulty with those who do not share the same viewpoints. I not only may disagree with him, I do disagree with him. And he may not even be wrong, but he is far from right. But my disagreement goes beyond his excuse for an opinion, it's his rather smug attitude to the whole thing. As for the second part of your statement? Well that's entirely true. However in today's shrill social climate the opinionated constantly fail to observe Emerson's dictum of "Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." For someone who has written so extensively on Who and has a detailed knowledge of the difficulties inherent in the BBC producing the show, his review is frankly lazy. Whatever, YMMV.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 3, 2020 14:22:16 GMT
You may disagree with him, but that does not mean he is wrong. Far from it. I would say that the most opinionated have the greatest difficulty with those who do not share the same viewpoints. I not only may disagree with him, I do disagree with him. And he may not even be wrong, but he is far from right. But my disagreement goes beyond his excuse for an opinion, it's his rather smug attitude to the whole thing. As for the second part of your statement? Well that's entirely true. However in today's shrill social climate the opinionated constantly fail to observe Emerson's dictum of "Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted." For someone who has written so extensively on Who and has a detailed knowledge of the difficulties inherent in the BBC producing the show, his review is frankly lazy. Whatever, YMMV. Lazy is the first word that popped in my head as well.
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Post by project37 on Mar 3, 2020 14:27:03 GMT
I've just finished watching that scene for the 50th time and realized that the Doctor's thrilling escape from the Matrix reminded me of one of my favorite BF cliffhangers:
{Spoiler for A Death in the Family} ...when the Seventh Doctor projects a tidal wave of his memories to defeat The Word Lord! I found it to be a breathtaking bit of audio design, using a montage of key moments from throughout Big Finish's version of Doctor Who. It was a distilled capsule of what we love about the character and just how rich and extensive their story truly has been so far. We are the sum of our memories, but Time Lords even more so. The Matrix never stood a chance!
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