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Post by Jeedai on Mar 3, 2020 16:24:41 GMT
Despite the new revelation, I still don't consider the Morbius Doctors to be canon, because why on Earth would the Fourth Doctor upon seeing past incarnations of himself that he doesn't remember not question that at all? So until they explicitly say that they're the Doctor's incarnations, then I'm still considering them Morbius' past incarnations. The same selective/ self-editing memory that makes the Doctor forget future incarnations five minutes after parting ways with them? Now I'm wondering why Four remembered those specific faces. Maybe those eight incarnations went up against Morbius on a regular basis, a running nemesis as the Daleks, Cybermen, etc have been for their most recent incarnations. What if Four's mental battle with Morbius triggered deeply-buried memories of being those eight, which went back into their Chameleon Arc/ torture enforced hole as he settled back into traveling with Sarah Jane? Triggered along with the "Brendan" flashbacks after she met Fugitive and started trying to sort that out.
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Post by nottenst on Mar 3, 2020 16:47:33 GMT
Steve Manfred identifies most of the 100 clips from the montage on his twitter feed.
There are a few TBDs, but still an amazing effort.
I remember him from the rec.arts.drwho days.
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ythri
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Post by ythri on Mar 3, 2020 17:42:28 GMT
also.... the Doctor is now canonically 10 million years old (vis a vie hoe long Gallifrey has had ultimate power in Trial of a Time Lord), maybe the Division rebranded in that time into the CIA.
Despite the bit in Trial, it doesn't make sense the Time Lord society is only 10 million years old. There is plenty of indication throughout the series that the Time Lords have been around a lot longer than that, including being involved in forcing the Racnoss into hiding at the beginning of the earth 4.5 billion years ago.
That's not a reason to assume that the Doctor is that old, as the Doctor hasn't had a life that is anything like linear in time. For that matter, the Time Lords relationship with linear time is more than a bit fuzzy.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 3, 2020 21:58:23 GMT
Despite the new revelation, I still don't consider the Morbius Doctors to be canon, because why on Earth would the Fourth Doctor upon seeing past incarnations of himself that he doesn't remember not question that at all? So until they explicitly say that they're the Doctor's incarnations, then I'm still considering them Morbius' past incarnations. The same selective/ self-editing memory that makes the Doctor forget future incarnations five minutes after parting ways with them? Now I'm wondering why Four remembered those specific faces. Maybe those eight incarnations went up against Morbius on a regular basis, a running nemesis as the Dakels, Cybermen, etc have been for their most recent incarnations. What if Four's mental battle with Morbius triggered deeply-buried memories of being those eight, which went back into their Chameleon Arc/ torture enforced hole as he settled back into traveling with Sarah Jane? Triggered along with the "Brendan" flashbacks after she met Fugitive and started trying to sort that out. OHH I like that. Morbius was “the Master” for those Doctors.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2020 22:17:10 GMT
also.... the Doctor is now canonically 10 million years old (vis a vie hoe long Gallifrey has had ultimate power in Trial of a Time Lord), maybe the Division rebranded in that time into the CIA. Despite the bit in Trial, it doesn't make sense the Time Lord society is only 10 million years old. There is plenty of indication throughout the series that the Time Lords have been around a lot longer than that, including being involved in forcing the Racnoss into hiding at the beginning of the earth 4.5 billion years ago.
That's not a reason to assume that the Doctor is that old, as the Doctor hasn't had a life that is anything like linear in time. For that matter, the Time Lords relationship with linear time is more than a bit fuzzy.
There's a thought. Ten million of our years or Gallifreyan years? "Absolute power" is also pretty negotiable as well. Maybe the Doctor was using the phrase ironically, ten million years of stagnancy and decay might look like absolute power from the planet's perspective. Edit: On the subject of Morbius Doctors, I was just reminded of something. A while back, an artist called Paul Hanley composed a tableau of nearly sixty different versions of the Doctor that had existed up until that point. I did a quick search and sure enough there was an update posted including developments from this series. Cool, eh? Here's both. Circa 2014:(Annotated version of the above here.) Circa 2020:
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Post by mrperson on Mar 4, 2020 4:11:23 GMT
So my non-serious guess that it was revenge for the BF anniversary special is wrong, but rather, he did it because he comes from The Doctor? Somewhere in the general vicinity of the city in which the ballpark is located, I'd say. Big minority opinion: I don't like the way this master is written. He can be great when he's speaking normally, but the "crazy" is never something I've liked. What else? Well, is this spawning some 'quest to find out who I am?', or 'I need to find my real race?' or will it be more practical: keep banging on. I do dislike it every time a prior showrunner's stuff is simply rewritten. As has been pointed out, 11 was given a regeneration cycle. Except he looked like he knew what it was and why. This episode was half exposition. Not once was it said that they took all of this creature's regeneration capability, just extracted it in a way that could be passed on and limited it. So why would he need regeneration juice in Time of?I suppose you could reconcile it by saying it was just some kind of trigger (they shot him with something bad) to make him regenerate again, even though he thought he couldn't. But then, maybe it's lies. :shrug: Thing is.... Moffat already did the 'I don't know how old I am' thing. I'm not sure much of anything changes other than plot material. Is next season her trying to undo it, or her trying to find her 'true past', or both?
I'll watch it again and probably form different opinions.
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Post by number13 on Mar 4, 2020 10:40:38 GMT
Despite the bit in Trial, it doesn't make sense the Time Lord society is only 10 million years old. There is plenty of indication throughout the series that the Time Lords have been around a lot longer than that, including being involved in forcing the Racnoss into hiding at the beginning of the earth 4.5 billion years ago.
That's not a reason to assume that the Doctor is that old, as the Doctor hasn't had a life that is anything like linear in time. For that matter, the Time Lords relationship with linear time is more than a bit fuzzy.
There's a thought. Ten million of our years or Gallifreyan years? "Absolute power" is also pretty negotiable as well. Maybe the Doctor was using the phrase ironically, ten million years of stagnancy and decay might look like absolute power from the planet's perspective. Edit: On the subject of Morbius Doctors, I was just reminded of something. A while back, an artist called Paul Hanley composed a tableau of nearly sixty different versions of the Doctor that had existed up until that point. I did a quick search and sure enough there was an update posted including developments from this series. Cool, eh? Here's both. Very cool indeed... could make the Doctor's 'I am Spartacus' scene run on a bit couldn't it?
'People of Gall-if-rey - you will identify the Doc-tor!' 'I am the Doctor!' 'No, I am the Doctor!' (repeats on loop)
'We do not have the rels for this mal-arkey. All bei-ngs who are not the Doc-tor will identify themselves!' (Dead silence) 'Em-er-gen-cy! Ret-reat! Ret-reat! They are all the Doc-tor now!'
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 11:56:42 GMT
I haven’t watched the series but am pretty buzzed about it when I do. From what my sisters have spoiled me with hahaha Is it really such a wipeout it really needed a kickass change of direction,since McGanns introduction and the human element I had always hoped the Doctor was somehow human but this seems so much better and am only going on fragments of my sister Fan Girls lol. Finally I can accept the female Doctor and probably that Susan isn’t even the granddaughter but a Time Lord red herring plank and that somewhere out there there’s a new origin story so much for future generations of writers and fans to play around with so I shall look forward to catching up with you guys,I Haventvread too much to gauge the response from you all but finally The Destruction of Gallifrey,....so much needed
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Post by barnabaslives on Mar 4, 2020 12:32:55 GMT
Waited a bit to watch that until I was in a reasonably good mood, I didn't want a bad mood to color my perception of it. Another brilliant episode, I thought. Absolutely wonderful moments with Yaz and Graham without overlooking Ryan getting a moment to shine too, and The Master sparkling with real menace. I still miss the suave coolness of the old Masters but I think the genie's probably been out of the bottle on that after Simms even for the cattiness of Missy (who's still obviously unhinged), and Sacha made the absolute best of that here. What to think of these new revelations? Seemed rather Space Messiah indeed but I do have mixed feelings ("She has left us... her screwdriver!" "Wait, The Doctor would never...") - um, it would probably be rather clever if Chibnall's found a way to put the mystery back into the Doctor's origins without upsetting canon, which might mean it will get waved away in the end to have the best of both worlds. I think I'm going to hang onto my headcanon until utterly forced to abandon it. For all I know tuigirl was right and it's all taking place inside the Master's TARDIS, and I'm not sure I'd mind if it was. I just wish a cliffhanger hadn't been involved although it would certainly serve that purpose to let this supposed new canon percolate for the duration, but that's way too much time for my head to fill up with silly ideas like "How come the tissue compression eliminator works on metal?" and checking (again) to see if Ko Sharmus is somehow an anagram for Jack Harkness, lol. What gets me though is the ending, I imagine The Master or an edited Matrix hardly makes for a reliable source of information and The Master seems to be a lot less about universe domination than just trying to bring The Doctor down to his own level in those final moments - as if the upgraded Cybermen (and who knows what else) might really be just a means to that end (and we did run into Gallifreyans earlier on somehow...) Hopefully he is just having us on again like last week when he had some of us nearly thinking Gallifrey was going to turn out to have been five miles up the road from Galway the whole time... Or else The Doctor will be back with new Space Messiah powers and unlimited incarnations. It's a win-win, right? So a riveting finale to a whole season that was likewise, and Chibnall still keeping us guessing, I'm sure that must all be quite commendably well done, and it's been tons of fun. At least with the mystery still in the air, it'll be fun to rewatch and look for clues, and this past season has to be the one I'd be keenest to rewatch anyway.
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Post by barnabaslives on Mar 4, 2020 12:37:34 GMT
Finally I can accept the female Doctor I nearly fainted. You must have had some vacation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 13:47:17 GMT
I haven’t watched the series but am pretty buzzed about it when I do. From what my sisters have spoiled me with hahaha Is it really such a wipeout it really needed a kickass change of direction,since McGanns introduction and the human element I had always hoped the Doctor was somehow human but this seems so much better and am only going on fragments of my sister Fan Girls lol. Finally I can accept the female Doctor and probably that Susan isn’t even the granddaughter but a Time Lord red herring plank and that somewhere out there there’s a new origin story so much for future generations of writers and fans to play around with so I shall look forward to catching up with you guys,I Haventvread too much to gauge the response from you all but finally The Destruction of Gallifrey,....so much needed Who are you and what have you done with causality? 😋😋😋 *glad you had a good holiday*
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Post by themeddlingmonk on Mar 4, 2020 13:50:03 GMT
I mean, Susan probably still is the Doctor’s granddaughter.
That is unless you’re going with Lungbarrow’s version of events, but even in that she still technically was his granddaughter.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 4, 2020 13:55:08 GMT
I mean, Susan probably still is the Doctor’s granddaughter. That is unless you’re going with Lungbarrow’s version of events, but even in that she still technically was his granddaughter. And that's the other thing this one bit of established Family History wasn't mentioned once was it! Regards mark687
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 14:23:55 GMT
Y'see, I thought that was absolutely mind-blowing and mostly brilliant. And, as is often the case, I can't understand how anyone could disagree with me! You win some, you lose some.
Yes, there was a lot of conversation, but it was delivered so intensely and carried such a weight of information, I was hanging off every word. And let's face it, there was lots of Cyber-incident to stop things getting too turgid (I accept the bubble of belief came closest to bursting when the Cyber Time Lords appeared, but Jamie Magnus Stone's subtle direction made them look less ridiculous than they might otherwise have been).
As for The Doctor being more than the sum of her pre-supposed parts? I'm fine with that, really. As far as 'this' version of The Doctor is concerned, we still have the regular line-up from Hartnell through to Whittaker, am I right? It's just that other 'strands' feature a whole host of other Doctors - including, I'm delighted to say, much of the production crew of The Brain of Morbius. Again, I would have imagined that such a concept is so delicious, that Who fans - although not, admittedly, the wider audience - would be clapping their hands with delight. No? No, it seems not!
Much has been said of Chris Chibnall paying lip-service to both RTD and Steven Moffat, but this series finale has been different enough in style and concept to stamp his identity on what has happened.
Peformances were great throughout. I love Sacha's scampering, Joker-like Master and Jodie's complete unwillingness to be intimidated by him. And yes, the little speech between Graham and Yaz - still my favourite - was lovely. She's been given some wonderful, tiny moments this series, and Mandip has played them beautifully. That's why, I think she is my favourite travelling companion since Our Rosie.
So yes, I found this to be a wonderful, blistering end to a wonderful, blistering series.
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Mar 4, 2020 18:35:13 GMT
So when do we get audio series for each of the Morbius Doctors? BF have Hinchcliffe's number. It's very strange, having been a champion of the idea that making Hartnell the first Doctor was a mistake and a big fan of Cold Fusion/the Cartmel Masterplan's attempts to reintroduce some mystery to the Doctor, to see these ideas used in the TV series. And they said the Capaldi era was too fan-centric...
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Post by chopper on Mar 4, 2020 19:53:10 GMT
If that actually happened it would all have been worthwhile! Come on BF, make it so! Regards mark687 What's all this about?
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Post by mrperson on Mar 4, 2020 20:25:13 GMT
Wait a sec. Hold on there.
The Doctor has two hearts and everything that goes along with being a Timelord. But now, the Doctor isn't a timelord. And they stole regeneration from her. It'd be quite unlikely that they just so happened to have the same biology, shy of only regeneration. Impossibly unlikely.
So.... presumably, you could pump regeneration energy into anyone - give them a cycle - and either right there or when they "died", their physiology would change to match the Doctor's. But that rather contradicts 11's "you can't just make a Timelord."
(And on a broader note, I suppose this ep completely wipes out anything having to do with Timelords developing over long time proximity to an entrance to the vortex or whatever it was called )
Actually, double-hold on: so basically, S6 was pointless. The only reason "the Doctor" didn't regenerate when we were shown him "dying" is because it already not the Doctor, but the Doctor inside a machine. Remember, we may have watched events linearly. Once he changed history, it had always happened that way. In-universe, there never was a "first time", once he made the change.
Maybe that isn't as solid as it sounded in my head. But it's better than "oh, great, so now we've retconned a retcon". Since that was supposed to be a dead Doctor in S1, not a robot playing dead while looking like a doctor, and according to his ep if it were the real Doctor in S1, he'd have regenerated regardless of what was in that suit.
(Remember, the suit was made by people to kill a Timelord).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2020 20:39:19 GMT
What happened to the rumoured musical episode this season? "When a man's an empty kettle He should be on his mettle And yet I'm torn apart Just because I'm presumin' That I could be a Time LordIf I only had two hearts...." "I'd be tender, I'd be gentle And awful sentimental Regarding love and art I'd be friends with the sparrows And the boy that shoots the arrows If I only had two hearts..."
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Post by sherlock on Mar 4, 2020 20:45:54 GMT
Wait a sec. Hold on there.
The Doctor has two hearts and everything that goes along with being a Timelord. But now, the Doctor isn't a timelord. And they stole regeneration from her. It'd be quite unlikely that they just so happened to have the same biology, shy of only regeneration. Impossibly unlikely.
So.... presumably, you could pump regeneration energy into anyone - give them a cycle - and either right there or when they "died", their physiology would change to match the Doctor's. But that rather contradicts 11's "you can't just make a Timelord."
(And on a broader note, I suppose this ep completely wipes out anything having to do with Timelords developing over long time proximity to an entrance to the vortex or whatever it was called )
11’s claim about not being able to make a Time Lord was wrong though, as the Silence quite clearly did make a Time Lord (and if you count The Diary of River Song Series 3, they didn’t stop at one).
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Post by mrperson on Mar 4, 2020 20:52:01 GMT
Wait a sec. Hold on there.
The Doctor has two hearts and everything that goes along with being a Timelord. But now, the Doctor isn't a timelord. And they stole regeneration from her. It'd be quite unlikely that they just so happened to have the same biology, shy of only regeneration. Impossibly unlikely.
So.... presumably, you could pump regeneration energy into anyone - give them a cycle - and either right there or when they "died", their physiology would change to match the Doctor's. But that rather contradicts 11's "you can't just make a Timelord."
(And on a broader note, I suppose this ep completely wipes out anything having to do with Timelords developing over long time proximity to an entrance to the vortex or whatever it was called )
11’s claim about not being able to make a Time Lord was wrong though, as the Silence quite clearly did make a Time Lord (and if you count The Diary of River Song Series 3, they didn’t stop at one).
I don't recall anything about the Silence giving River her regeneration energy. Just, stealing Amy's baby, training/brainwashing it, and putting it in a super suit.
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