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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 2, 2020 13:27:28 GMT
Oi Chibnall Get Out Of My Head!
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Mar 2, 2020 13:28:29 GMT
Also, regarding the Master, I read a post on tumblr last night that was quite illuminating. It makes perfect sense for this to be after Missy. Imagine this - he wakes up, and the Doctor is gone. It's okay, he also thought he was done for. He feels like he could still learn a lot from the Doctor, so he returns to Gallifrey and decides to take a look in the Matrix, the collection of all Time Lord knowledge. He studies the Doctor's files, but then he finds something, a seemingly loose thread. So he obviously pulls it and eventually the whole tapestry comes undone. He unravels the Web of Time (check). The Doctor, the only constant in his life and, he thought, vice versa, is much more than just another Time Lord. He thought they'd always been together, but the Doctor has a whole life (lives) before he was even born. He wanted to be like the Doctor, but now he will never be able to. And so he becomes enraged, his life has no meaning anymore, and he breaks a billion billion hearts to heal his own (check). He stands on the ruins of Gallifrey (check). But this is not enough. He has to see the Doctor suffer and go through the same thing he has. And, to top it all off, he crossbreeds ("born from you and bred by me") two warrior races to be his ultimate conquering army (check). The he absorves the Cyberium and becomes a Hybrid. This is really like
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Post by Digi on Mar 2, 2020 13:34:33 GMT
Mandip Gill also having some fun
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Post by xlozdob on Mar 2, 2020 13:37:57 GMT
Just a random ponder here:Did the Doctor actually live all that time or was s/he subjected to a Bucky Barnes effect by the Division and put on ice until needed? The memories of Ireland and so on not just erasing their life but keeping their hibernating mind sane. Ooh! That is a very interesting thought! It would be very interesting if the Doctor was put in stasis during the process of "installing" regeneration in the Time Lord software and was only released when they brought them to the Division. That way they wouldn't be privy to the inner workings of the founding of Time Lord society, and would make their story even more tragic. The Bucky analogy is a very good one. Being used as a tool whenever necessary until they rebelled and became a fugitive. Hell, thinking about it, the meeting with the Division could have been to brief Tecteum, rather than the Doctor. The possibilities!
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Post by project37 on Mar 2, 2020 15:56:28 GMT
That ending...
{Spoiler} Was that meant to be Shada?
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Mar 2, 2020 16:03:38 GMT
Speaking as someone who is yet to watch a full episode of The Whittaker/Chibnall era (I have seen a fair few odd clips and scenes but was less than impressed by both the writing and acting...I just found it rather dull tbh, and I'm less than thrilled that Gallifrey was blown up again, negating the impact of TDOTD) and has rather lost interest in the Series/franchise at large in the last couple of years, the best I can say about this new development in the backstory is that it has reminded me why I enjoy Big Finish and the 60's/Capaldi period so much, none of my friends or family who still watch the show have reacted in much of positive way to this series and I don't feel like I'm missing out on much (in fact I have been a little saddened and concerned just how brutally upset some fans seem to be about this development...it is just a TV series afterall). Yes perhaps it's a bit silly/unfair of me to judge this era without giving it a proper go, but now having seen those rumours confirmed I feel even surer about cutting ties with the series, I have no desire to ever watch the Whittaker era knowing this is where it has lead, it just feels fundamentally wrong to the character, needlessly convoluted and shocking for the sake of shocking, and I know it just isn't going to be the kind of Who I enjoy, I'll continue to stick with the old episodes and BF. I suppose I've never been a hardcore fan of the series per se, rather just a fan of certain doctors/eras, makes it easier to disconnect from lore additions such as this i guess. That wasn't intended to come across as an entitled angry rant (more a sad realisation about my declining interest in the franchise, more than anything), and I'm sure many of you will neither remember me nor care about my thoughts (I used to post here quite a bit a year or two ago), but I've been lurking here a bit recently and just felt like saying something, *shrugs*. I'm certainly pleased that is has got people talking about the show so much again and created a lot of interesting debate, but I just can't find it in myself to be in any way supportive/enjoyable about this current series of Who or this new addition to the backstory, glad for those who do seem to enjoying it so much. It kinda reminds me of how I felt about the Capaldi era-probably my favourite era of the TV series (though still secondary to EDA/BF 8th Doctor) but I was aware that wasn't the case for everyone. Can I still count myself as a fan for only watching/liking certain parts of the series? Am I being harsh or entitled for just 'not liking' something? It's interesting seeing how divided the reaction to this new development has been, here everyone seems broadly positive, but the reaction on reddit/facebook seems much more mixed. Anyway, enough of my rambling silly thoughts, back to lurking I go. (And, er...dosen't the timeless child narrative contradict/confuse our understanding of how River became part time lord?)
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 2, 2020 16:17:33 GMT
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Post by xlozdob on Mar 2, 2020 16:18:46 GMT
(And, er...dosen't the timeless child narrative contradict/confuse our understanding of how River became part time lord?) Not really. She was engineered by the Kovarian Chapter using the Doctor's (or Time Lord, but at that point they're pretty much synonymous) DNA/biodata/whatever you want to call it (which, then again, it's where the Time Lords originally got the regeneration genome from, anyways), her exposure to the vortex is merely a predisposition, which could have existed on Gallifrey as well, since we know there was an untempered schism there, which could be natural and have existed during the time of the shobogans. Also, we know nothing about this "boundary" under which Tecteun found the Timeless Child, it could have be another untempered schism of some kind. And this natural temporal predisposition to regeneration actually fits in with my personal understanding of Time Lords, tbh ( explained here).
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Post by xlozdob on Mar 2, 2020 16:19:41 GMT
She does audiobooks guys
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Post by sherlock on Mar 2, 2020 17:00:07 GMT
My views on this finale have gotten harsher the more I’ve thought about it.
Am I sold on the notion of the Doctor as an immortal mystical being fallen from the gods (or whatever’s actually on the other side of the boundary)? Not completely. It doesn’t massively change the basics of the character, but it does completely alter the emphasis in her relationship with the Time Lords. As the Time Lords are dead, that won’t actually impact the Doctor’s character now really either. It’s weird how such a big change ultimately changes so little. Still credit to Chibnall for actually following through.
The companions got no resolution of any kind. Their arc this series seemed to be starting to distrust the Doctor (see: the scene where they discuss the Doctor and seeming dissatisfaction at her answers at the end in Spyfall, reactions at the end of Orphan 55, disagreement over handing over the Cyberium in The Haunting) but none of that came back. They didn’t even ask the Doctor why her homeworld was a nuclear wasteland. Literally all they got was Ryan throwing the bomb, which the episode immediately undercut, and that scene between Graham and Yaz. The revelations had no relevancy for them, all they did this episode was escape the Cybermen. The ending of them dumped back on Earth would be unsatisfying, but honestly I can’t see what more there is for the ‘fam’ to do.
The sacrifice at the the end was such a cheap move. The Doctor apparently can’t think of any way out of this except wiping out all life on Gallifrey, but doesn’t have to face any consequences for that as a man with a weird sci-fi name that she met for five minutes comes to bail her out, complete with a whole line or two reason why he’s happy to sacrifice himself.
My biggest gripe is I get a strong sense this entire storyline was conceived just to explain the Morbius Doctors. As a starting point, that’s pretty creatively weak.
I did enjoy it last night, but for such a significant episode it doesn’t hold up well to further scrutiny.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 17:47:09 GMT
I used my VLC Player to slow down the "Blow the Matrix's mind.." montage. Wow there were somethings in there I was not expecting as it went so very fast on watching it. There was obviously the glimpses of every Jodie ep, then past Docs, all the new series companions, Sarah Jane, Jo, Scout Dalek, Davros , Sycorax, Slitheen, Wilf, Family Of Blood Scarecrows, Odd, Racnoss Queen, Novice Hame, a classic era Zygon, Sharaz Jek (!), Missy, Yana, Autons from 1971, VOC Robot, Eric Roberts Master, Sutekh, Ainley, Beever, Delgado and the Jagaroth. Woulda been nice to fling in Alex McQueen too I guess! Oh, and Chibbers clearly has made peace with his infamous appearance on TV dissing the Colin Baker era as even Sil popped up! Sil, in modern Who. Odd, odd times! Attachment Deleted
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Post by ollychops on Mar 2, 2020 17:57:49 GMT
As cool as "Blow the Matrix's mind" moment was, I think it was a bit of a cheat way to get Thirteen out of there. You're telling me that the Matrix, the thing that houses all Time Lord history and every Time Lord consciousness and can predict future events, was overloaded by Thirteen showing off some of her memories? Memories that the Matrix should have in its' system already (or the majority of the memories, at the very least)...
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Post by Digi on Mar 2, 2020 18:04:04 GMT
As cool as "Blow the Matrix's mind" moment was, I think it was a bit of a cheat way to get Thirteen out of there. You're telling me that the Matrix, the thing that houses all Time Lord history and every Time Lord consciousness and can predict future events, was overloaded by Thirteen showing off some of her memories? Memories that the Matrix should have in its' system already (or the majority of the memories, at the very least)... Yes I’ll admit this seemed like a bit of a cheat to me, too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 18:04:24 GMT
As cool as "Blow the Matrix's mind" moment was, I think it was a bit of a cheat way to get Thirteen out of there. You're telling me that the Matrix, the thing that houses all Time Lord history and every Time Lord consciousness and can predict future events, was overloaded by Thirteen showing off some of her memories? Memories that the Matrix should have in its' system already (or the majority of the memories, at the very least)... Well, no-one here is telling you it - the episode did. And it clearly worked so yes...it was overloaded otherwise it wouldn't have done! In universe, well, yes maybe that is a bit cheap but The Matrix has never been as all powerful as it was presented. We saw in the Trial season how unreliable it was and it didn't seem too fussed who it let in and out there! The Matrix incarnation of Jo Martin clearly wanted to help Jodie's Doc wake up so gave her the tools to do so. It wasn't a locked door problem - it was a door asking you to open it and giving you the key to do so. It's a bit of a trope, really. Same get out as Rings Of Akhaten but still a bit of a fun way to toss in some fan stuff. We could have "The Doctor just wakes up..." but this is more fun.
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Post by commonman on Mar 2, 2020 18:08:14 GMT
As cool as "Blow the Matrix's mind" moment was, I think it was a bit of a cheat way to get Thirteen out of there. You're telling me that the Matrix, the thing that houses all Time Lord history and every Time Lord consciousness and can predict future events, was overloaded by Thirteen showing off some of her memories? Memories that the Matrix should have in its' system already (or the majority of the memories, at the very least)... The Matrix < The Doctor's memories < The Rings of Akhaten big bad < Clara's leaf
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 18:13:18 GMT
Next series will reveal The Doctor is The War Chief,Rassilon & probably Omega. Was just chatting with wife about the boxset opportunities that have been opened thanks to this episode.. LOLZ.
There is the possibility now that the next volume of 'Phillip Hinchcliffe Presents' will feature himself as a TV Canon Doctor. On the down side the the likes of The Companion Chronicles: First Doctor and Second Doctor volumes will need re-labelling. Somebody will have custom covers up online by the end of the week no doubt. News in: Doctor in Distress will be getting a 35th Anniversary Release on the back of last nights episode. Limited numbers only, on sale the beginning of next month.
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Post by sherlock on Mar 2, 2020 18:16:56 GMT
As cool as "Blow the Matrix's mind" moment was, I think it was a bit of a cheat way to get Thirteen out of there. You're telling me that the Matrix, the thing that houses all Time Lord history and every Time Lord consciousness and can predict future events, was overloaded by Thirteen showing off some of her memories? Memories that the Matrix should have in its' system already (or the majority of the memories, at the very least)... Actually thinking about, there’s a missed opportunity there. Surely the Matrix contains the minds of those Time Lords who abused and hid the truth from the Doctor, so surely she could have used to confront them?
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Post by Tim Bradley on Mar 2, 2020 18:41:09 GMT
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Post by Jeedai on Mar 2, 2020 18:50:43 GMT
I'll add that the only thing that doesn't quite sit right with me, apart from Gallifrey falling once more (see what I did there?), is them calling themselves the Doctor while working for the Division. The TARDIS being a police box (and is that even the Doctor's TARDIS?) can be easily explained as chameleon circuit/perception filter reacting to Jodie's Doctor. But Jo's Doctor calling herself that... it's weird. I guess it could also be us learning about it from Jodie's Doctor's perspective and her hearing that. Who knows. Hopefully that get's explained or unmuddled next series and, if not, we always have headcanon, as Moffat said in the recent Radio Times interview, and can always fill in the gaps ourselves, and that's kind of what special about Doctor Who. With the Doctor's regeneration limit blown out of the water, the Fugitive Doctor could still be slotted in between Two and Three. Three's collapse immediately after leaving the Tardis could be due to the trauma of yet another memory wipe. As for her not recognizing the Sonic, the one Two had seemed only to be a literal screwdriver while Thirteen was waving her much-upgraded model around like a hand scanner. Also, regarding the Master, I read a post on tumblr last night that was quite illuminating. It makes perfect sense for this to be after Missy. Imagine this - he wakes up, and the Doctor is gone. It's okay, he also thought he was done for. He feels like he could still learn a lot from the Doctor, so he returns to Gallifrey and decides to take a look in the Matrix, the collection of all Time Lord knowledge. He studies the Doctor's files, but then he finds something, a seemingly loose thread. So he obviously pulls it and eventually the whole tapestry comes undone. He unravels the Web of Time (check). The Doctor, the only constant in his life and, he thought, vice versa, is much more than just another Time Lord. He thought they'd always been together, but the Doctor has a whole life (lives) before he was even born. He wanted to be like the Doctor, but now he will never be able to. And so he becomes enraged, his life has no meaning anymore, and he breaks a billion billion hearts to heal his own (check). He stands on the ruins of Gallifrey (check). But this is not enough. He has to see the Doctor suffer and go through the same thing he has. And, to top it all off, he crossbreeds ("born from you and bred by me") two warrior races to be his ultimate conquering army (check). The he absorbs the Cyberium and becomes a Hybrid. [ETA: The Hybrid thing is not from the tumblr post, but it fits oh so well.] Chibnall has unknowingly (or maybe not) given so many more layers to their relationship and satisfyingly concluded one of the few Moffat storythreads I was not entirely happy with their conclusion. This episode is quicky becoming one of my new series favourites, even surpassing Hell Bent. Throw onto that the personal emotion hell Missy suffered through as part of her redemption, the pain of rethinking and coming to regret her past, going as far as to kill her past self in an effort to go back to the Doctor's side at long last... All for nothing, apparently as that old friend, the very cause of that roller coaster and moment of self-betrayal, a life time of anger and resentment and friendship and regret -- the storm at the very center of the Master's life through every regeneration -- turning out to be a lie foisted upon the Master since childhood.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 19:15:41 GMT
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