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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 4, 2020 19:20:44 GMT
No Chris Chibnall has not killed off Doctor Who. It is coming back later this year with a special and next year with a full series.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 4, 2020 20:23:56 GMT
I think what Chibbers has done is a clever way of insulating the series against having to have clunky “the Doctor magically gets more regenerations” moments whenever we run out of proscribed incarnations AND offered an explanation as to why the Time Lords didn’t simply vaporise the Doctor when he was found guilty of breaking their “most sacred laws” in War Games - they couldn’t terminate him, he’d simply keep regenerating.
Could he have been more creative? Been clever in a different way? Done something not so divisive? Probsbly.
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Post by mrperson on Mar 4, 2020 20:27:14 GMT
She's not a Timelord, Timelords came from her. She's a something, perhaps likely eternal. Why would this "kill" Doctor Who? I don't even understand the premise.
This is largely a non-event for me. Maybe entirely a non-event. They were always going to keep going as long as it made sense to keep going. BF will keep going as long as it makes sense to keep going. Etc. Meaning they would always have had to say something when 24 regenerates into 25 to explain why we're past the second regeneration cycle. So to tell me that actually, this might be the 100th Doctor or the 100,000th Doctor does not really change all that much.
For me, eternity of anything would be hell. Hell would just be worse than Heaven, but both would probably drive me mad at some point. Year one million? One billion? One trillion? One decillion? One centillion (that's 10^100)? Imagine turning 10^100 and knowing you still have not existed for the first second of eternity. Hell.
(What of Susan? If she really was his granddaughter, might she have inherited the 'eternal' genes directly and thus have an endless cycle?)
Perhaps they can explore the ramifications of this sinking in.... but then "horribly depressed Doctor" would not be welcome for long.
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Post by mrperson on Mar 4, 2020 20:36:34 GMT
I think what Chibbers has done is a clever way of insulating the series against having to have clunky “the Doctor magically gets more regenerations” moments whenever we run out of proscribed incarnations AND offered an explanation as to why the Time Lords didn’t simply vaporise the Doctor when he was found guilty of breaking their “most sacred laws” in War Games - they couldn’t terminate him, he’d simply keep regenerating. Could he have been more creative? Been clever in a different way? Done something not so divisive? Probsbly. I was under the impression that modern timelords did not know. It was supposed to be "hidden" in the deepest bits of the matrix.
Perhaps, after the Time War, they knew. Rassilon was supposed to have invented regeneration, so presumably he was there when she was found and decided it'd be cool to give himself credit. And they brought him back to lead the war, after all. (But then...why would they bother firing regeneration energy at 11 in Time? To make him think he is a Timelord for some reason?)
But I wouldn't expect they knew before.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Mar 4, 2020 21:16:15 GMT
She's not a Timelord, Timelords came from her. She's a something, perhaps likely eternal. Why would this "kill" Doctor Who? I don't even understand the premise.
This is largely a non-event for me. Maybe entirely a non-event. They were always going to keep going as long as it made sense to keep going. BF will keep going as long as it makes sense to keep going. Etc. Meaning they would always have had to say something when 24 regenerates into 25 to explain why we're past the second regeneration cycle. So to tell me that actually, this might be the 100th Doctor or the 100,000th Doctor does not really change all that much.
For me, eternity of anything would be hell. Hell would just be worse than Heaven, but both would probably drive me mad at some point. Year one million? One billion? One trillion? One decillion? One centillion (that's 10^100)? Imagine turning 10^100 and knowing you still have not existed for the first second of eternity. Hell.
(What of Susan? If she really was his granddaughter, might she have inherited the 'eternal' genes directly and thus have an endless cycle?)
Perhaps they can explore the ramifications of this sinking in.... but then "horribly depressed Doctor" would not be welcome for long.
I kinda think she IS a Timelord, in that she's a member of the society that calls themselves Timelords. She's just not natively Gallifreyan.
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Post by tuigirl on Mar 4, 2020 21:34:59 GMT
If anything, series 12 got me more engaged in the TV series again. So my answer is a firm „No“. Series 12 corrected a lot of the meh stuff from series 11. Yes, the finale was a bit of a tornado in a waterglass (do they have that expression in English, too?) but it also does not put me off.
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Post by aussiedoctorwhofan on Mar 4, 2020 21:57:17 GMT
I'm going to take this thread off on a complete tangent for a moment..and talk about Star Trek. I adored the original series as a child. When the BBC reran the episodes back in the late seventies I was there, laying on the floor with my head propped in my hands and utterly spellbound by what I was seeing. With the passage of time I can certainly see that the special effects were not that great, some of the acting was questionable and some of the stories were frankly atrocious..but back then none of that mattered. The TV show led to the first six movies (where I loved five of them with equal measure..the less said about Star Trek V the better) which in turn led to the Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. With both shows the love affair was not the same as the one I had with the original series. It took me two seasons to warm to both, but by TNG's and DS9's third seasons I was hooked once more, albeit in a different way to my 1970's self. This time I started to question some of the dubious plot threads and when the occasional 'stinker' episode was shown I viewed it with a far more critical eye. By the time Voyager premiered my fondness for the franchise was starting to wane. I tried to get into the premise of the show but I failed miserably. To date I've seen maybe a dozen or so episodes scattered over the seven seasons. With Enterprise I've managed barely half a dozen episodes over it's four seasons. The TNG movies left me cold and I haven't seen any of the Kelvin Timeline movies beyond the 2009 one. I stuck with the first series of Discovery more out of curiosity than interest but just couldn't connect with it and sadly I suspect I won't be turning in to the second series of Picard (a lot of potential but again my interest is waning). But do I want the franchise killed off as a result of my falling out of love with it? Absolutely not. Because somewhere there is a young Star Trek fan laying on the floor with their head propped in their hands, watching the TV and utterly spellbound by what they are seeing.. So what does this have to do with Doctor Who? A lot actually. Over the past forty odd years I have fallen in and out of love with this show more times than I have fingers and toes to count on. Chibnall's era isn't perfect, far from it in fact. But neither was Moffat's, RTD's, JNT's or any of the others. How can they be? How can anybody meet the expectations and personal headcanon of every single viewer? Cannot be done. But for us it is much easier. Becoming a fan of a long running TV show is just like (and I'm going to loosely 'borrow' from a TNG episode called "Relics") the first time you fall in love. As the years progress (and show runners change) you don't ever love quite like that again. It changes. You can try and recapture those feelings of course and sometimes it works, but sometimes it just boils down to the moment when you eventually realise you can't fall in love like that anymore..when you know you don't feel the same anymore. A time when you simply have to stop. And acknowledge that somewhere there is a young Doctor Who fan laying on the floor with their head propped in their hands watching the TV, and they are utterly spellbound by what they are seeing.. This response needs to be framed. WOW. perfectly worded.!
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 4, 2020 23:39:13 GMT
I think what Chibbers has done is a clever way of insulating the series against having to have clunky “the Doctor magically gets more regenerations” moments whenever we run out of proscribed incarnations AND offered an explanation as to why the Time Lords didn’t simply vaporise the Doctor when he was found guilty of breaking their “most sacred laws” in War Games - they couldn’t terminate him, he’d simply keep regenerating. Could he have been more creative? Been clever in a different way? Done something not so divisive? Probsbly. I was under the impression that modern timelords did not know. It was supposed to be "hidden" in the deepest bits of the matrix It’s been strongly implied over the years that the Tribunal who judged the Doctor were CIA, it’s not hard to believe that either The Division were a secret cabal within the CIA or evolved into the CIA but either way they’d have kept tabs on the Doctor. Push came to shove and he needed a “remember who your betters are, and obey us” slap down.
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Post by project37 on Mar 5, 2020 0:59:06 GMT
There's no poll option for "get a grip."
These histrionics are ridiculous. You don't like it anymore, that's fine. I know how it goes. I checked out during the Clara years - that character and the general style of the show at the time just didn't work for me personally. The answer was simple: I didn't watch it and moved on with my life. It's so obnoxious to dismiss it as "dead" for those that still enjoy it (or for new audiences that are discovering it).
This type of possessive entitled fan ownership attitude (i.e., "this does not align with my personal preferences so therefore it is dead") turned me off of so many fandoms I once enjoyed. I really like this forum as a little haven for reasonable conversation with cool people and think we can do better than childish "polls" like this.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Mar 5, 2020 1:41:47 GMT
There's no poll option for "get a grip."
These histrionics are ridiculous. You don't like it anymore, that's fine. I know how it goes. I checked out during the Clara years - that character and the general style of the show at the time just didn't work for me personally. The answer was simple: I didn't watch it and moved on with my life. It's so obnoxious to dismiss it as "dead" for those that still enjoy it (or for new audiences that are discovering it).
This type of possessive entitled fan ownership attitude (i.e., "this does not align with my personal preferences so therefore it is dead") turned me off of so many fandoms I once enjoyed. I really like this forum as a little haven for reasonable conversation with cool people and think we can do better than childish "polls" like this.
Big honking yes.
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Post by number13 on Mar 5, 2020 2:01:04 GMT
If anything, series 12 got me more engaged in the TV series again. So my answer is a firm „No“. Series 12 corrected a lot of the meh stuff from series 11. Yes, the finale was a bit of a tornado in a waterglass (do they have that expression in English, too?) but it also does not put me off. Indeed we do, we would say 'a storm in a teacup'.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Mar 5, 2020 2:56:00 GMT
There's no poll option for "get a grip."
These histrionics are ridiculous. You don't like it anymore, that's fine. I know how it goes. I checked out during the Clara years - that character and the general style of the show at the time just didn't work for me personally. The answer was simple: I didn't watch it and moved on with my life. It's so obnoxious to dismiss it as "dead" for those that still enjoy it (or for new audiences that are discovering it).
This type of possessive entitled fan ownership attitude (i.e., "this does not align with my personal preferences so therefore it is dead") turned me off of so many fandoms I once enjoyed. I really like this forum as a little haven for reasonable conversation with cool people and think we can do better than childish "polls" like this.
Six months ago, the analogy I would have used about “the show canon not adhering to one’s head canon” and still enjoying the show would have been “I’m a Morbius Doctor fan, and yet I still the fifth Doctor onwards”
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Post by scriptortempore on Mar 5, 2020 3:11:58 GMT
Nope. I don't like what he's done recently either. I'm debating whether I'll watch the special or the new series which is honestly really sad for me. But he hasn't killed the show.
Simply put the show will be on the air, afaik it's contracted to be so. (and where there's life there's hope!)
I think this all also undermines the ability of future writers and ourselves as an audience. Did the half human thing stick? No. Let's wait and see, honestly. And who knows maybe chibnall can fix it for fans like us who aren't happy with what he's done.
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Post by scriptortempore on Mar 5, 2020 3:17:24 GMT
I think what Chibbers has done is a clever way of insulating the series against having to have clunky “the Doctor magically gets more regenerations” moments whenever we run out of proscribed incarnations AND offered an explanation as to why the Time Lords didn’t simply vaporise the Doctor when he was found guilty of breaking their “most sacred laws” in War Games - they couldn’t terminate him, he’d simply keep regenerating. Could he have been more creative? Been clever in a different way? Done something not so divisive? Probsbly. It was left unclear how many regenerations the Doctor has post trenzalore. I believe in kill the moon he thinks he may just never stop. Rassilon also didn't know in hell bent. So I don't think chibnall has found a solution to a problem that was already solved if that's what he was trying to do, which I doubt, I think he just wanted to write about the morbius doctor tbh. War games is an odd one. I think you could be correct, although surely erasure from time and other methods wouldn't give the Doctor a chance to regenerate? But in the World Game it's revealed the Doctor was about to be executed, but I think it'd help explain other things like why he's so liked and allowed to become the bloody president from time to time! At least as well as the idea he used to be on the high council.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
Likes: 2,849
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Post by aztec on Mar 5, 2020 9:53:25 GMT
But do I want the franchise killed off as a result of my falling out of love with it? Absolutely not. Because somewhere there is a young Star Trek fan laying on the floor with their head propped in their hands, watching the TV and utterly spellbound by what they are seeing.. A time when you simply have to stop. And acknowledge that somewhere there is a young Doctor Who fan laying on the floor with their head propped in their hands watching the TV, and they are utterly spellbound by what they are seeing.. This. It's a stopping point for me, but will be a jumping on point for new fans, who am I to judge or say how others can enjoy this wonderful franchise? There's decades of Doctor Who tv, comics, books, audios already that I can enjoy, and hopefully there will be many more decades in the future for others to enjoy. It occurs to me that my previous posts may have came across as whiny or entitled which wasn't my intention at all, I suppose I just feel sad that's its another franchise i have fallen out of love with-to use another example as a decades long fan of Tolkien I was absolutely heartbroken and dissapointed in The Hobbit films (both as an adaptation, and as films in their own right), after a while I realised than venting and moaning about my problems with those films wasn't healthy or productive at all, it's just a bit of escapism after all. I just decided to cut all ties with the franchise-I haven't watched those films since they were released (and certainly never intend to again) and it's only recently with the passage of several years that I've been been able to pick up the books again and enjoy them once more, maybe after a gap of several years I'll feel similarly about Doctor Who, it's not for me but will be for many others and that can only be a good thing. As much as I dislike the creative direction Chibnall has taken the series in, I do think it's a good thing that the showrunner has so much creative freedom and a willingness to take risks, it remains to be seen how the timeless child reveal will impact the series/fandom moving forward, but I think this does show just how much confidence the BBC has in Chibnall/the franchise, it's a show that thrives on change and tweaking the formula every so often, and at the very least I can give Chibnall credit for having the vision to turn the show on its head in only his second series, I'd rather the series failed at doing something new and bold rather than limp towards an ending rehashing the old. It's not a creative direction/backstory I can personally get behind, but I'm glad that others are enjoying it so much.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 16:15:01 GMT
I'm still not sure what the OP actually means. It seems it is a 'given' that the television show is in an unsalvagably bad state, am I reading things correctly? Whether that is because of 'dwindling' ratings or because thesegastoner doesn't like the direction taken under Chris Chibnall's era so far is not clear.
Ratings-wise, Series 12 begun with 4.88 million overnight, and the latest episode scored 3.78 (I use overnights because consolidated aren't available for the whole series yet). The gap between highest and lowest is about a million, which makes this a pretty consistent series. The gap last year was nearer three million, but that was because the opening episode reached a higher number of viewers than most people predicted. So although ratings are down on series 11, there's a certain consistency here, and most ratings are higher than those for series 9 and 10. So it ain't dead by any means, especially with the Christmas special and next year's series.
If we are asking is Doctor Who artistically dead, then whilst it may be dead to some, it's thriving for others. And that is pretty much the way it has always been. The show does seem to be getting a critical kicking this year though, which is odd because I have found it eventful, entertaining and great fun. Of course, general critical acclaim can be summed up in two very worthwhile words: who cares? That nameless gestalt cloud has been deriding Doctor Who in part since the Sixties, reaching a bit of a peak with Mary Whitehouse in the 70s, arguably when the show was also at a high point. Whilst fans often deride Series 24, more generally, it wasn't getting too rough a time, because it wasn't garnering that much attention then. At least while people like Patrick Mulkern are making (to me) astounding claims about how bad the show is now, at least people are talking about it!
Death of Doctor Who? Not in our lifetimes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2020 17:18:17 GMT
I've decided to say funk it, and I watched the final 3 episodes. I am ANGRY about the Mary Shelley episode, but in regards to the finale, that one is odd. The Master was the best part, obviously, but overall I found them quite boring when he wasn't on screen. I don't think it is as series destroying as I was led to believe, but they should change it to being The Master who's the timeless child... It would make more sense being he doesn't seem to stay dead for long. They also need to fix the whole Mary thing... That bothers me the most... Like ridiculously so!
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Mar 5, 2020 18:05:18 GMT
I'm going to take this thread off on a complete tangent for a moment..and talk about Star Trek. I adored the original series as a child. When the BBC reran the episodes back in the late seventies I was there, laying on the floor with my head propped in my hands and utterly spellbound by what I was seeing. With the passage of time I can certainly see that the special effects were not that great, some of the acting was questionable and some of the stories were frankly atrocious..but back then none of that mattered. The TV show led to the first six movies (where I loved five of them with equal measure..the less said about Star Trek V the better) which in turn led to the Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. With both shows the love affair was not the same as the one I had with the original series. It took me two seasons to warm to both, but by TNG's and DS9's third seasons I was hooked once more, albeit in a different way to my 1970's self. This time I started to question some of the dubious plot threads and when the occasional 'stinker' episode was shown I viewed it with a far more critical eye. By the time Voyager premiered my fondness for the franchise was starting to wane. I tried to get into the premise of the show but I failed miserably. To date I've seen maybe a dozen or so episodes scattered over the seven seasons. With Enterprise I've managed barely half a dozen episodes over it's four seasons. The TNG movies left me cold and I haven't seen any of the Kelvin Timeline movies beyond the 2009 one. I stuck with the first series of Discovery more out of curiosity than interest but just couldn't connect with it and sadly I suspect I won't be turning in to the second series of Picard (a lot of potential but again my interest is waning). But do I want the franchise killed off as a result of my falling out of love with it? Absolutely not. Because somewhere there is a young Star Trek fan laying on the floor with their head propped in their hands, watching the TV and utterly spellbound by what they are seeing.. So what does this have to do with Doctor Who? A lot actually. Over the past forty odd years I have fallen in and out of love with this show more times than I have fingers and toes to count on. Chibnall's era isn't perfect, far from it in fact. But neither was Moffat's, RTD's, JNT's or any of the others. How can they be? How can anybody meet the expectations and personal headcanon of every single viewer? Cannot be done. But for us it is much easier. Becoming a fan of a long running TV show is just like (and I'm going to loosely 'borrow' from a TNG episode called "Relics") the first time you fall in love. As the years progress (and show runners change) you don't ever love quite like that again. It changes. You can try and recapture those feelings of course and sometimes it works, but sometimes it just boils down to the moment when you eventually realise you can't fall in love like that anymore..when you know you don't feel the same anymore. A time when you simply have to stop. And acknowledge that somewhere there is a young Doctor Who fan laying on the floor with their head propped in their hands watching the TV, and they are utterly spellbound by what they are seeing.. This response needs to be framed. WOW. perfectly worded.! And consider this the postscript:
Our future is in safe hands.
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Post by glynnlondon on Mar 6, 2020 10:44:43 GMT
Doctor Who is a pretty broad church with something for everyone. Nu who I've dipped in and out of over the years. Some I've liked some I definitely haven't. The present show I'd put firmly in the latter , but that's fine. Because that's where Big Finish comes continually to the rescue !
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Post by OneTen on Mar 6, 2020 11:03:04 GMT
Doctor Who is a pretty broad church Ah, I see what you did there! Chibnall joke
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