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Post by nucleusofswarm on Aug 29, 2020 0:43:35 GMT
So what's a complaint against an episode that, no matter how you try, you disagree completely with and can't remotely understand how someone could come to that conclusion?
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Post by masterdoctor on Aug 29, 2020 2:10:17 GMT
Cyber-Brig immediately comes to mind. Somehow, a bunch of fans took a loving tribute to the legacy of a character/actor and made it out to be some disrespectful slight. I think it became a case of fans conflating their opinions importance, much like when people say it's disrespectful to recast characters because it distasteful to the actor's memory. You don't have to like it, but when not a single person directly involved with the original or the new production see a problem with it, why do people act like that.
Otherwise, I do think that the sexism angle was slightly exaggerated in Twice Upon a Time, but I definitely recognize the sexism present in Hartnell's era, if not most of the classic series and some of the revival. Many female characters were made just to scream or be "appendages" to their male counterparts. Doctor Who was incredibly lucky to have such talented actresses in many of the roles, with Katy Manning, Carole Ann Ford, Louise Jameson and Sophie Aldred that took these roles and made them into something much more complex, but the sexist undertones are still there. Susan in the tv show has very little agency, Jo was brought in so that the Doctor could explain what was going on, as opposed to Liz Shaw, who knew what was going on for the most part. Leela's costume, and Peri's outfits were made for the male gaze as opposed to being made to suit the character first.
Chibnall has ruined the show and it's now to PC... These so called true fans must have never watched Pertwee's era, Warriors of the Deep, A Dalek episode, McCoy's era, Vengeance on Varos. The list goes on, Doctor Who has always been a political, and politically left-wing show. The only difference is that Chibnall is being upfront and not dealing with allegories like many others did.
The Spyfall controversy, where 13 uses the Master's skintone against him in Nazi Germany. The episode literally shows this and 13 in a bad light for doing what she did. This isn't portrayed as justified punishment, it's showed as revenge-driven and horrible. I don't understand the accusations of how it was offensive.
Moffat was much truer to classic Doctor Who than RTD ever was. RTD took the basics of the show and kept it quite distinct and separate from the original episodes. Moffat, while sometimes too caught up in continuity, was the one who made the show feel truly connected to what came before it. He honoured the history and showed his love and passion for it, while RTD only really showed his passion for the concepts.
Adding on to that, Moffat was much better at creating a cohesive group of writers than most show runners. The range of writers he introduced and helped to meld together was incredible, and whether it was a guest writer such as Richard Curtis, Neil Cross, Rona Munro or regulars like Gattis, Mathieson and himself, each episode in his era felt like it was tonally cohesive. Many eras don't have that, except for maybe Chibnall's.
The controversy of Bill Potts being gay/Madame Vastra and Jenny. Probably the single most stupid criticism people have levelled at the show. Need I explain why?
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Post by timegirl on Aug 29, 2020 2:16:36 GMT
That the writing let down the Capaldi era. Sometimes I wonder if those who make that comment even watched the same episodes as me! Capaldi’s era has the best story arch of any era of Who both Modern and Classic. With many extremely memorable brilliant episodes like: Listen, Mummy on the Orient Express, Dark Water/Death and Heaven, Last Christmas, Magicians Apprentice/ Witches Familiar, Zygon Invasion/Inversion, Face the Raven, Heaven Sent, Hell Bent( yes I said it), The Pilot, Thin Ice, World Enough and Time, The Doctor Fall, and Twice upon a Time! This era has some of the deepest character writing of the Doctor and companions ever!
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Aug 29, 2020 3:51:54 GMT
I had an argument on Twitter with a guy who said that Horns Of Nimon was a better piece of television than anything in Season 11. I could understand it if he said he liked it more, but he (and it’s always “he”) insisted that Season 11 suffered from “ThE wRiTiNg” (idiots just say “the writing” but never specify what about the writing is so bad) and that Horns Of Nimon was far superior, production-wise.
I’ve stopped arguing with a lot of these people because you can’t argue with people who mistake nostalgia for quality.
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Post by tuigirl on Aug 29, 2020 7:46:22 GMT
Clara as the worst companion ever. I never understood this. I thought she was okay. I am not in love with her, but I never got the hate. Yes, she can be bossy and feel superior, and the whole "most important girl in the universe" thing did not help, but I still rate the 12th Doctor era among my favorites. I also might be onto a theory why Clara got so much backlash. A couple of years back I tried to get my sister into Doctor Who (yeah, no idea why I try to get my family into my nerdy stuff....). I got her my favorite episodes to watch. She loved the 11th Doctor era with Amy and Rory. But then said she was not interested in the 12 Doctor because of Clara. She said Amy and Rory were fantastic and relatable. Clara was terrible. My sister, who is not a Whovian, came up with some of the same words and phrases many Clara critics come up with. Maybe the change between the family atmosphere with Amy and Rory towards Clara is to blame? Yes, Amy is also bossy and pushy plus can be sexually charged, but she has an immediate charm that Clara lacks. Clara is more of an acquired taste. However, I personally never perseived it as such a glaring difference.
Oh, and of course Sixie's coat. I love it. It is a fantastic costume. I also think that many of the other Doctors look good in it...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 12:28:16 GMT
Here's a classic one: "Your opinion, which isn't to my tastes, is objectively bad. Because I don't agree with it, it therefore makes you a bad person." Can we call that the ur-example? I don't understand the fuss. People are allowed to like what they like, for their own reasons. *shrugs* It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. A dissenting opinion is certainly no reflection on someone else's personal character. As the old adage goes: if someone needs to bully someone else into having the same opinion as them, in order to feel secure, that says far more about problems with the bully's character than that of the victim. Be nice. Have fun. Don't buy into the gossipy drama. Buy audio dramas, instead.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 12:59:45 GMT
Here's a classic one: "Your opinion, which isn't to my tastes, is objectively bad. Because I don't agree with it, it therefore makes you a bad person." Can we call that the ur-example? I don't understand the fuss. People are allowed to like what they like, for their own reasons. *shrugs* It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. A dissenting opinion is certainly no reflection on someone else's personal character. As the old adage goes: if someone needs to bully someone else into having the same opinion as them, in order to feel secure, that says far more about problems with the bully's character than that of the victim. Be nice. Have fun. Don't buy into the gossipy drama. Buy audio dramas, instead. Another one is, and I've been on the receiving end of this: "You're easily pleased."
Dare to like an episode/audio that isn't to the tastes of others, or is produced by people who aren't to the tastes of others, or stars an actor who isn't to the tastes of others ... and you're 'easily pleased.'
As a criticism, this is not atypical. As an insult, it is surprisingly effective.
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Post by timegirl on Aug 29, 2020 13:10:32 GMT
That Heaven Sent could have worked with any companion departure or death and with any Doctor, when it could only work in the context of 12 grieving Clara’s death.12 and Clara had an incredibly deep bond with each other to the point of being soulmates, just look at how far they both went for each other! It couldn’t have worked with any other other combination of Doctor and companion because of how tied to their arch it was. If either of these aspects were changed it would it would loose all its impact. I think the main people saying Heaven Sent could be the Doctor grieving any companion are often the same people who hate Clara, and don’t like that it’s specifically because of her death that the Doctor behaves the way he does. I will admit that Clara is an acquired taste and isn’t for everyone (and that’s okay), it’s completely missing the point to say it’s a generic story of the Doctor’s grief that could feature any Doctor grieving any companion. Plus, I think we would all miss Capaldi’s performance if it was any other Doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 13:13:40 GMT
Here's a classic one: "Your opinion, which isn't to my tastes, is objectively bad. Because I don't agree with it, it therefore makes you a bad person." Can we call that the ur-example? I don't understand the fuss. People are allowed to like what they like, for their own reasons. *shrugs* It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. A dissenting opinion is certainly no reflection on someone else's personal character. As the old adage goes: if someone needs to bully someone else into having the same opinion as them, in order to feel secure, that says far more about problems with the bully's character than that of the victim. Be nice. Have fun. Don't buy into the gossipy drama. Buy audio dramas, instead. Another one is, and I've been on the receiving end of this: "You're easily pleased." Dare to like an episode/audio that isn't to the tastes of others, or is produced by people who aren't to the tastes of others, or stars an actor who isn't to the tastes of others ... and you're 'easily pleased.' As a criticism, this is not atypical. As an insult, it is surprisingly effective.
What an odd put-down, I'd honestly wear "you're easily pleased" as a badge of pride. Could you imagine the alternative? All these small and wonderful things I just wouldn't appreciate for... what? Snobbery? To be seen having the opinion? That's not any sort of victory. Fun. That's the name of the game here. I'm very fortunate, I do seem to be easily pleased. Wouldn't change that for the world. Part of it comes from learning the inner mechanics of a story and just being thrilled that it works, full stop. Life's too short to be hung up on appearances for appearance's sake. Enjoy what you like. You don't actually need anyone else's permission.
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Post by timegirl on Aug 29, 2020 13:24:22 GMT
Another one is, and I've been on the receiving end of this: "You're easily pleased." Dare to like an episode/audio that isn't to the tastes of others, or is produced by people who aren't to the tastes of others, or stars an actor who isn't to the tastes of others ... and you're 'easily pleased.' As a criticism, this is not atypical. As an insult, it is surprisingly effective.
What an odd put-down, I'd honestly wear "you're easily pleased" as a badge of pride. Could you imagine the alternative? All these small and wonderful things I just wouldn't appreciate for... what? Snobbery? To be seen having the opinion? That's not any sort of victory. Fun. That's the name of the game here. I'm very fortunate, I do seem to be easily pleased. Wouldn't change that for the world. Part of it comes from learning the inner mechanics of a story and just being thrilled that it works, full stop. Life's too short to be hung up on appearances for appearance's sake. Enjoy what you like. You don't actually need anyone else's permission. I think you guys hit the nail on the head😊 I often feel awkward for some of the episodes I like that have bad reputations such as “Love and Monsters” ( brilliant satire!), “Fear Her” (who doesn’t like drawings that come to life) and Hell Bent ( heartbreaking finale that makes me cry), but that doesn’t stop me from enjoying them!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 13:34:30 GMT
Another one is, and I've been on the receiving end of this: "You're easily pleased." Dare to like an episode/audio that isn't to the tastes of others, or is produced by people who aren't to the tastes of others, or stars an actor who isn't to the tastes of others ... and you're 'easily pleased.' As a criticism, this is not atypical. As an insult, it is surprisingly effective.
What an odd put-down, I'd honestly wear "you're easily pleased" as a badge of pride. Could you imagine the alternative? All these small and wonderful things I just wouldn't appreciate for... what? Snobbery? To be seen having the opinion? That's not any sort of victory. Fun. That's the name of the game here. I'm very fortunate, I do seem to be easily pleased. Wouldn't change that for the world. Part of it comes from learning the inner mechanics of a story and just being thrilled that it works, full stop. Life's too short to be hung up on appearances for appearance's sake. Enjoy what you like. You don't actually need anyone else's permission. Absolutely. Here's the latest episode of Doctor Who. I like it. You don't. I've just enjoyed 50 minutes of television. You have disliked it. Who's the 'winner'? Is there a 'winner?'
I feel some people feel a kind of prestige in ripping things apart. Being the first on a forum after an episode has aired, for example, saying how much they hated it, seems to elevate them in their own minds. I can't and never will understand that way of thinking.
Challenge them, and they act as if they are providing some kind of service, speaking out when all around them are those horrible 'easily pleased' people.
This is why I love Chris Chibnall for saying current Doctor Who isn't made 'by committee' or 'by a focus group' (I can't remember his exact words).
These people who consider themselves above being 'easily pleased' - I often wonder what it is they need from Doctor Who?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 13:40:14 GMT
What an odd put-down, I'd honestly wear "you're easily pleased" as a badge of pride. Could you imagine the alternative? All these small and wonderful things I just wouldn't appreciate for... what? Snobbery? To be seen having the opinion? That's not any sort of victory. Fun. That's the name of the game here. I'm very fortunate, I do seem to be easily pleased. Wouldn't change that for the world. Part of it comes from learning the inner mechanics of a story and just being thrilled that it works, full stop. Life's too short to be hung up on appearances for appearance's sake. Enjoy what you like. You don't actually need anyone else's permission. I think you guys hit the nail on the head😊 I often feel awkward for some of the episodes I like that have bad reputations such as “Love and Monsters” ( brilliant satire!), “Fear Her” (who doesn’t like drawings that come to life) and Hell Bent ( heartbreaking finale that makes me cry), but that doesn’t stop me from enjoying them! Hey, I like Warriors of the Deep (one of the first Target books I ever read) and think Timelash has a good, solid 25-minute two-parter hidden in all that padding (I've pulled it together). We like what we like. And even for stories that I let pass me by, like The Gunfighters, to miss out on something like number13 's "Ballad of the Last Supper" would be a crying shame. I've still got it saved to a file somewhere... Here it is, with deference to the sir in question: We miss out on so much when we close our mind to possibilities. Things like this are what I'm here for, irrespective of trendiness, and always enjoyable.
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Post by mark687 on Aug 29, 2020 13:45:44 GMT
The Classic Argument
"I haven't Seen/Heard/Read it but its Bad!"
Regards
mark687
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Post by timegirl on Aug 29, 2020 14:06:55 GMT
12 playing the guitar on top of a tank and wearing sonic sun glasses and a hoodie was stupid, embarrassing and cringey. First off how could anyone watch that scene and not think it was completely awesome ? It’s completely in character for 12 in that moment to do something that outlandish he’s having a midlife crisis. Plus I think the costume change shows character development that he’s starting to loosen up a bit more. Also I read that part of the reason for the sonic sunglasses was so kids and people and general had a way of cosplaying as the Doctor even if they didn’t have the money to spend on fancy merchandise which I think in itself is a very kind thing that they made that effort. Plus the guitar playing isn’t just some gimmick to make 12 seem hip with the kids it’s a reference to Capaldi’s real life time in a punk band and I think it adds to his character development showing his artistic expressive side coming out. I honestly feel bad for people who can’t find joy in the tank scene, it must not be fun being a snob.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Aug 29, 2020 14:10:35 GMT
12 playing the guitar on top of a tank and wearing sonic sun glasses and a hoodie was stupid, embarrassing and cringey. First off how could anyone watch that scene and not think it was completely awesome ? It’s completely in character for 12 in that moment to do something that outlandish he’s having a midlife crisis. Plus I think the costume change shows character development that he’s starting to loosen up a bit more. Also I read that part of the reason for the sonic sunglasses was so kids and people and general had a way of cosplaying as the Doctor even if they didn’t have the money to spend on fancy merchandise which I think in itself is a very kind thing that they made that effort. Plus the guitar playing isn’t just some gimmick to make 12 seem hip with the kids it’s a reference to Capaldi’s real life time in a punk band and I think it adds to his character development showing his artistic expressive side coming out. I honestly feel bad for people who can’t find joy in the tank scene, it must not be fun being a snob. I never understood the hate: most of the other Doctors played a musical instrument, as well. And the sunglasses were brilliant, also.
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Post by timegirl on Aug 29, 2020 14:11:55 GMT
12 playing the guitar on top of a tank and wearing sonic sun glasses and a hoodie was stupid, embarrassing and cringey. First off how could anyone watch that scene and not think it was completely awesome ? It’s completely in character for 12 in that moment to do something that outlandish he’s having a midlife crisis. Plus I think the costume change shows character development that he’s starting to loosen up a bit more. Also I read that part of the reason for the sonic sunglasses was so kids and people and general had a way of cosplaying as the Doctor even if they didn’t have the money to spend on fancy merchandise which I think in itself is a very kind thing that they made that effort. Plus the guitar playing isn’t just some gimmick to make 12 seem hip with the kids it’s a reference to Capaldi’s real life time in a punk band and I think it adds to his character development showing his artistic expressive side coming out. I honestly feel bad for people who can’t find joy in the tank scene, it must not be fun being a snob. I never understood the hate: most of the other Doctors played a musical instrument, as well. And the sunglasses were brilliant, also. Exactly, it’s badass!😎🎸
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Post by theillusiveman on Aug 29, 2020 14:48:04 GMT
Cyber-Brig immediately comes to mind. Somehow, a bunch of fans took a loving tribute to the legacy of a character/actor and made it out to be some disrespectful slight. I think it became a case of fans conflating their opinions importance, much like when people say it's disrespectful to recast characters because it distasteful to the actor's memory. You don't have to like it, but when not a single person directly involved with the original or the new production see a problem with it, why do people act like that. Otherwise, I do think that the sexism angle was slightly exaggerated in Twice Upon a Time, but I definitely recognize the sexism present in Hartnell's era, if not most of the classic series and some of the revival. Many female characters were made just to scream or be "appendages" to their male counterparts. Doctor Who was incredibly lucky to have such talented actresses in many of the roles, with Katy Manning, Carole Ann Ford, Louise Jameson and Sophie Aldred that took these roles and made them into something much more complex, but the sexist undertones are still there. Susan in the tv show has very little agency, Jo was brought in so that the Doctor could explain what was going on, as opposed to Liz Shaw, who knew what was going on for the most part. Leela's costume, and Peri's outfits were made for the male gaze as opposed to being made to suit the character first. Regarding The Cyber Brig i am not actually mad that Moffatt brought him back as a Cybermen as there are heaps of interesting stories that can be told, What would it be like if you were fighting against the enemy of yours and one day became one- there can be a lot of drama and interesting ways of going in depth and its a neat way of having The Brig in live action hell even Big Finish could do something with it- i mean i doubt they are going to do Kroton the cyberman with a soul spin off so might as well develop the Brig
The Whole sexism angle of First Doctor and 60s Who was Flanderised and felt Disingenuous to the era it was paying homage to (like it was trying to say that look how far we have come in a meta sense) - though the moments with The First Doctor and Bill talking about the nature of the universe and the goodbye between 1 and 12 was some of the best scenes in New Who.
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Post by agentten on Aug 29, 2020 14:59:27 GMT
I've never been able to wrap my mind around the objections to the Doctor having romantic relationships. The Doctor may be a Time Lord, with alien sensibilities, but he/she is still a thinking, feeling person who, like any thinking, feeling person, has just as much chance of meeting another person that they resonate with and grow to care deeply about. It surprises me that it took as long as it did for the Doctor to have a romantic side on the show. It's a major facet of character development to be drawn to another person. I'm not saying all characters have to have romances, but for the Doctor to live as long as he/she has and not experience those feelings with any of the people he/she meets along the way seems like a stretch and the objections to it confuse me. The Doctor isn't a monk or a nun. The Doctor dances, so why is anyone surprised when he/she picks a dance partner?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2020 15:46:24 GMT
The Classic Argument "I haven't Seen/Heard/Read it but its Bad!" Regards mark687 Excellent point. Its the whole 'received wisdom' of the 'Elders of the Scrolls' (any published retrospective from the old days, be it DWM or Fanzines, where the author/s can be declamatory about things they have seen that others have not). Back in the mid 1980's, a writer in DWM stated that much of 1960's Doctor Who, bar the odd classic (usually featuring the Daleks) were pretty shoddy and slow by 'modern' standards and would not pass muster with younger fans (like me). Then comes along the VHS range - and they were brilliant! Then comes a massive re calibration whereby the likes of The Gunfighters and The Romans gain new fans and appreciation. It was the same in the wilderness years, where we were assured that the new generation of kids watching modern telly and films, would not be impressed by Classic Who as a whole. Gary Gillatt experimented by showing episodes to a a group of Primary School kids and disproved this, for a DWM feature. Something I found as a Teacher was that an equal proportion of those students who got into Doctor Who, had a noted preference for either the Classic series, particularly Tom Baker, or the New series, notably David Tennant. It seemed that production quality does not feature in their judgement, their tastes being guided by the Acting and Storytelling that suits them. The key point to me is - watch with an open mind and make up your own mind. Don't feel obliged to like something because others tell you to and don't hide the fact that you are a fan of something others aren't. Edit: here is Gary's article from 1995, focusing on Terror of the Zygon's, with Class 4G gillatt.wordpress.com/2011/07/25/class-4g-and-the-zygons/
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Post by muckypup on Aug 29, 2020 16:03:46 GMT
That Big finish is not proper doctor who?
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