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Post by timegirl on Sept 10, 2020 13:47:49 GMT
Timeless Children is a horrible episode and completely destroys cannon.
While this episode is a lot to take in and isn’t completely perfect, cannon in Doctor Who is a very flexible and fluid thing that changes all the time and I think the ideas in timeless children adds a lot of intrigue to play around with. Plus think of all the cool and interesting past Doctors we can encounter now that we didn’t even know existed!
12 is too old, ugly, and grumpy
This is extremely shallow and narrow minded thinking. Many of the classic Doctors were older, why not a have an older new Who Doctor? Plus we would have missed out on a brilliant performance from a brilliant actor. Also, I don’t know how anyone can call Peter ugly, he’s very attractive for a man his age. Yes 12 (his character) is sometimes awkward looking and behaving but that’s all acting and makes him more relatable. It’s so stupid that people can’t get past grey hair and a few lines on his face. As for the grumpy part, 12 had been put through a lot of trauma of course he’s going to be grumpy. Plus if he hadn’t been his character arch would not have been nearly as effective.
The Doctor should never be played by a woman
While I do have my issues with 13, her gender isn’t one of them. Why not have the option of casting a male or female Doctor? There are so many brilliant actresses who would be brilliant at playing the Doctor why not let them have a crack at it?
It Takes You Away is terrible and the ending is really stupid.
This episode is so original! It subverts expectations of what you think you are getting in the beginning and gives a dark bittersweet “Coraline”-esque fairytale with a bit of Douglas Adams absurd sci-fi thrown in! I personally love the frog on the chair, I think it’s so bizarre it’s brilliant!
The Hybrid was a terrible arch, made no sense, and they never gave an answer to what the Hybrid was
I really love this arch and I think it’s one of the most unique mystery boxes of New Who! It makes you think you are going to get some big bad monster that the Doctor is going to have beat and then it pulls the rug out from under you... I also don’t understand how so many people miss that they do reveal what the hybrid is, it’s 12 and Clara’s tragic relationship that is such a deep and powerful bond that it could destroy the universe! Which in my mind is much more satisfying answer than if the Hybrid was just some generic monster of the week! Plus it makes 12 and Clara’s relationship even more unique, a Doctor and companion who love each other so much that it nearly destroys reality, its beautiful, poetic, and tragic!
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Post by timegirl on Sept 16, 2020 12:51:26 GMT
The Science has to make sense in DW and be based in the real world otherwise it makes no sense and it sucks. Fantasy And fairytale elements have no place in Doctor Who. Also emotional drama has no place in Doctor Who and New Who sucks for this reason. Doctor Who should only ever be hard sci-fi with no fantasy and none of this emotional nonsense.
My taste in Doctor Who is much further on the fantasy, magical realism, and light-sci-fi that hard sci-fi and techno speak.
I don’t think that DW should necessarily ALL be based in real world hard science, only if something interesting can be done with it in the story or it’s an important message about science that DW can teach. I think as long as it works for the story that is being told and makes things interesting it doesn’t need a technical real world explanation. Also I think often times the less something is explained the more interesting and memorable it is. For example imagine if at the end of Midnight, we got an extremely long technical explanation for exactly what the Midnight Entity was. Wouldn’t that suck out all the mystery out of it?
Fantasy and Fairytale elements are an important part of Doctor Who and I think we would loose a lot if we did not have them. If you think about it the Doctor is a fairytale figure themselves. I think we would loose a lot of the magic if we treated it as just a hard science fiction show. Think of all the brilliant episodes we would loose or be lesser if we were limited to real world science? All the brilliant creatures and aliens as well?
I think we would really loose something if we didn’t have emotional drama in Doctor Who. I would argue one of the core elements of Doctor Who that make it so memorable as sci-fi show. Yes, there is a right and wrong way to handle these emotional elements and it can feel cringey if the show gets them wrong. The Doctor is a thinking feeling being with a long history of course they are going to have a lot of different changing emotions. Also the companions are also called upon and have their own personalities and lives/histories. It only makes sense to delve into the emotions of how things effect them. They aren’t robots after all. I have to admit that even though I love modern and classic Who, my preference tends towards the modern for their focus on the emotions and relationships with the Doctor and companions. It sometimes frustrates me when classic Who ignores the emotions of their characters. I also zero in on any emotional and relationship aspects in classic that I can find, such as the goodbye scene between 1 and Susan or the ending of The Green Death. I really don’t understand how people can say that modern who is bad for tapping into the lives of their characters and their relationships. One of the main reasons why I watch (and listen to) Doctor Who is because of how well the characters and emotions resonate with me.
I think we would all loose something if Doctor Who was just hard sci-fi with no fantasy and no emotions. It would be far too sterile, with no magic and no heart.
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Post by randomcomments on Sept 27, 2020 17:23:03 GMT
I've never been able to wrap my mind around the objections to the Doctor having romantic relationships. The Doctor may be a Time Lord, with alien sensibilities, but he/she is still a thinking, feeling person who, like any thinking, feeling person, has just as much chance of meeting another person that they resonate with and grow to care deeply about. It surprises me that it took as long as it did for the Doctor to have a romantic side on the show. It's a major facet of character development to be drawn to another person. I'm not saying all characters have to have romances, but for the Doctor to live as long as he/she has and not experience those feelings with any of the people he/she meets along the way seems like a stretch and the objections to it confuse me. The Doctor isn't a monk or a nun. The Doctor dances, so why is anyone surprised when he/she picks a dance partner? There exist quite a number of people who are "thinking, feeling," but who are not sexually or romantically inclined, and who lead full lives. There are also people who are sex-repulsed, or for whom these things exist, but don't really play a major role in their lives. And, surprise, plenty of these people aren't in religious orders and vows! Sometimes, just occasionally, it's nice to acknowledge that they exist. When your character is also a space alien with a broad enthusiasm and love for the universe, but which doesn't seem to be based in that particular way, it's a bit of a breath of fresh air. The Doctor spent 26 seasons without having an explicit romantic relationship, and saying things like "you're a beautiful woman, probably." Yes, Susan exists, and I'm not saying it's a crime to have done the (many, many) "The Doctor in romantic relationships" stories we've had since the show was first cancelled. But it seems reasonable that people might have appreciated that characterization in a hero, accident of production and intended audience as it may be.
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Post by timegirl on Sept 27, 2020 18:03:44 GMT
Sixie’s Coat is Ugly and the worst Costume ever
No it’s not it’s delightful and suits him perfectly, I even love his cat buttons!
12 should never wear t-shirts and hoodies, he’s way too old to it looks ridiculous!
They suit his loosening up and his rocker aesthetic! Plus it shows that he’s young at heart(s)!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 22:10:20 GMT
Sixie’s Coat is Ugly and the worst Costume ever No it’s not it’s delightful and suits him perfectly, I even love his cat buttons! 12 should never wear t-shirts and hoodies, he’s way too old to it looks ridiculous! They suit his loosening up and his rocker aesthetic! Plus it shows that he’s young at heart(s)! We get some nice variety from that coat over the years too:
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Post by timegirl on Sept 27, 2020 22:29:57 GMT
Sixie’s Coat is Ugly and the worst Costume ever No it’s not it’s delightful and suits him perfectly, I even love his cat buttons! 12 should never wear t-shirts and hoodies, he’s way too old to it looks ridiculous! They suit his loosening up and his rocker aesthetic! Plus it shows that he’s young at heart(s)! We get some nice variety from that coat over the years too: They are all amazing!😀 He’s another Doctor like 1and 3, that I can’t picture in anything other than formal wear🤔 Although to be honest the only really casually dressed Doctors are 9, 12 (some of the time), and 13.
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Post by tuigirl on Sept 27, 2020 22:47:09 GMT
I've never been able to wrap my mind around the objections to the Doctor having romantic relationships. The Doctor may be a Time Lord, with alien sensibilities, but he/she is still a thinking, feeling person who, like any thinking, feeling person, has just as much chance of meeting another person that they resonate with and grow to care deeply about. It surprises me that it took as long as it did for the Doctor to have a romantic side on the show. It's a major facet of character development to be drawn to another person. I'm not saying all characters have to have romances, but for the Doctor to live as long as he/she has and not experience those feelings with any of the people he/she meets along the way seems like a stretch and the objections to it confuse me. The Doctor isn't a monk or a nun. The Doctor dances, so why is anyone surprised when he/she picks a dance partner? There exist quite a number of people who are "thinking, feeling," but who are not sexually or romantically inclined, and who lead full lives. There are also people who are sex-repulsed, or for whom these things exist, but don't really play a major role in their lives. And, surprise, plenty of these people aren't in religious orders and vows! Sometimes, just occasionally, it's nice to acknowledge that they exist. When your character is also a space alien with a broad enthusiasm and love for the universe, but which doesn't seem to be based in that particular way, it's a bit of a breath of fresh air. The Doctor spent 26 seasons without having an explicit romantic relationship, and saying things like "you're a beautiful woman, probably." Yes, Susan exists, and I'm not saying it's a crime to have done the (many, many) "The Doctor in romantic relationships" stories we've had since the show was first cancelled. But it seems reasonable that people might have appreciated that characterization in a hero, accident of production and intended audience as it may be. Yep, completely on the same page with you here. I might as well belong into one of the categories you mention. I am quite happy to have a hero I can identify with who is not like all the others. And there is more to love than just all this sex and romantic flirtation business. Edit: I am also not a monk or a nun. I am a vet. Who is a socially awkward highly sensitive introvert.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 22:50:47 GMT
We get some nice variety from that coat over the years too: They are all amazing!😀 He’s another Doctor like 1and 3, that I can’t picture in anything other than formal wear🤔 Although to be honest the only really casually dressed Doctors are 9, 12 (some of the time), and 13. Yeah. I can see them in costumes, certainly, but my brain jams any time I try to picture the Third Doctor in something other than smart casual. The shirt would have to be tailored, possibly silk, with frills stitched somewhere into the fabric ("Oh, Doctor, aren't you supposed to be off-duty?" "From work, my dear man, not style."). The First Doctor... I think his idea of casual would likely be the same as the Sixth's; i.e. you just take the coat off and undo the cravat. I'm certain I've seen/read/heard Eight dressing casual for the occasion, but I'm struggling to think of a specific example for the time being...
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Post by timegirl on Sept 27, 2020 22:57:43 GMT
They are all amazing!😀 He’s another Doctor like 1and 3, that I can’t picture in anything other than formal wear🤔 Although to be honest the only really casually dressed Doctors are 9, 12 (some of the time), and 13. Yeah. I can see them in costumes, certainly, but my brain jams any time I try to picture the Third Doctor in something other than smart casual. The shirt would have to be tailored, possibly silk, with frills stitched somewhere into the fabric ("Oh, Doctor, aren't you supposed to be off-duty?" "From work, my dear man, not style."). The First Doctor... I think his idea of casual would likely be the same as the Sixth's; i.e. you just take the coat off and undo the cravat. I'm certain I've seen/read/heard Eight dressing casual for the occasion, but I'm struggling to think of a specific example for the time being... It would be strange wouldn’t it!😁
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2020 23:17:03 GMT
There exist quite a number of people who are "thinking, feeling," but who are not sexually or romantically inclined, and who lead full lives. There are also people who are sex-repulsed, or for whom these things exist, but don't really play a major role in their lives. And, surprise, plenty of these people aren't in religious orders and vows! Sometimes, just occasionally, it's nice to acknowledge that they exist. When your character is also a space alien with a broad enthusiasm and love for the universe, but which doesn't seem to be based in that particular way, it's a bit of a breath of fresh air. The Doctor spent 26 seasons without having an explicit romantic relationship, and saying things like "you're a beautiful woman, probably." Yes, Susan exists, and I'm not saying it's a crime to have done the (many, many) "The Doctor in romantic relationships" stories we've had since the show was first cancelled. But it seems reasonable that people might have appreciated that characterization in a hero, accident of production and intended audience as it may be. Yep, completely on the same page with you here. I might as well belong into one of the categories you mention. I am quite happy to have a hero I can identify with who is not like all the others. And there is more to love than just all this sex and romantic flirtation business. Edit: I am also not a monk or a nun. I am a vet. Who is a socially awkward highly sensitive introvert. Ditto. Secular and in the asexual bracket. I'm fond of romance, but it's very Jane Austen (with better communication between Lizzy and D'Arcy, natch). The representation of that on Who is great and still a very rare thing to find on television or film, so it's nice that the show has been able to hold onto that for so long. As stated above, it's not an either or thing, completely for or against the Doctor having relationships. As anyone can say, any relationship (whatever it's stripe) is about trust, understanding and empathy. Partners will make allowances for one another, but it's nice that with the Doctor specifically, the show has spent quite a lot of time approaching that facet differently. And, very importantly, the Doctor isn't perceived as broken or incorrect for having that orientation. It's a very positive portrayal.
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Post by timegirl on Sept 27, 2020 23:47:15 GMT
12 didn’t become the Doctor until season 10 and Seasons 8 and 9 are Crap
While Season 10 has its brilliance too , claiming Season’s 8 and 9 are no good is to miss out on a lot of brilliant character development for 12. Watching just season 10 without the rest of the Capaldi era is to miss out on the whole picture of the man, you miss how he came to be the way he is before that point. I think to a lot of this criticism comes from people’s dislike of Clara, which I will admit her character is a bit of an acquired taste, in fact I my self did not grow to truly appreciate her character until the second time I went through 12’s era. I truly believe that 12 and Clara have one of the most fascinating, unique, heart breaking Doctor/ Companion relationships in all of Who to the point where I am genuinely sad it ends with Hell Bent and she couldn’t continue on with her soulmate (12) onto season 10. I think people should at least give 12’s earlier half of his era a second chance!
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Post by Whovitt on Oct 20, 2020 0:32:13 GMT
That the Tenth Doctor was "cruel" to, or "mistreated", Martha. I just don't get it. I've seen many, many people saying this but I've never seen anyone explain what he actually does that is so horrible to her. I actually re-watched Series 3 a couple of weeks ago and I still don't get it. If anyone can offer an explanation, I'm all ears.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 20, 2020 0:43:51 GMT
That the Tenth Doctor was "cruel" to, or "mistreated", Martha. I just don't get it. I've seen many, many people saying this but I've never seen anyone explain what he actually does that is so horrible to her. I actually re-watched Series 3 a couple of weeks ago and I still don't get it. If anyone can offer an explanation, I'm all ears. Basically because he treats her as a lesser replacement for Rose, and leads her on with mixed signals. Yes, of course he’s allowed to miss Rose but he constantly devalues Martha’s contributions. He also forced her to stay in a time period where she was treated as a second class citizen in Human Nature/Family of Blood.
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Post by Whovitt on Oct 20, 2020 1:16:48 GMT
That the Tenth Doctor was "cruel" to, or "mistreated", Martha. I just don't get it. I've seen many, many people saying this but I've never seen anyone explain what he actually does that is so horrible to her. I actually re-watched Series 3 a couple of weeks ago and I still don't get it. If anyone can offer an explanation, I'm all ears. Basically because he treats her as a lesser replacement for Rose, and leads her on with mixed signals. Yes, of course he’s allowed to miss Rose but he constantly devalues Martha’s contributions. He also forced her to stay in a time period where she was treated as a second class citizen in Human Nature/Family of Blood. I don't see how he treats her as a lesser replacement though. He wasn't looking for a new companion before The Lazarus Experiment, so he genuinely was just taking her on a couple of trips as far as he was concerned (something he'd later do with the likes of Kazran and Abigail). After that (if that's considering her as a lesser replacement), he definitely treats her with equal respect from 42 onwards. I don't really see how he devalues Martha's contributions either. Could you offer an example? As for mixed signals, that's not what he was doing at all. If he had known Martha fancied him then yes, it could be argued he was leading her on. But the whole point was that he didn't know Martha was interested (that's the purpose of Martha's story about her friend as she's leaving in Last of the Time Lords). If not realising someone has a thing for you and you're being nice to them is counted as mixed signals, just about everyone in the world has "mistreated" other people they've encountered in their lives, because everyone is bound to have at least one person in their lives have a crush on them without them knowing. If you're referring to Human Nature/ Family of Blood about making her a second class citizen, he didn't do that either. He says: "...the TARDIS will take care of everything. Invent a life story for me, find me a setting and integrate me." So that's entirely the fault of the TARDIS! It's not fair to blame him for that.
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Post by timegirl on Oct 20, 2020 1:28:01 GMT
Basically because he treats her as a lesser replacement for Rose, and leads her on with mixed signals. Yes, of course he’s allowed to miss Rose but he constantly devalues Martha’s contributions. He also forced her to stay in a time period where she was treated as a second class citizen in Human Nature/Family of Blood. I don't see how he treats her as a lesser replacement though. He wasn't looking for a new companion before The Lazarus Experiment, so he genuinely was just taking her on a couple of trips as far as he was concerned (something he'd later do with the likes of Kazran and Abigail). After that (if that's considering her as a lesser replacement), he definitely treats her with equal respect from 42 onwards. I don't really see how he devalues Martha's contributions either. Could you offer an example? As for mixed signals, that's not what he was doing at all. If he had known Martha fancied him then yes, it could be argued he was leading her on. But the whole point was that he didn't know Martha was interested (that's the purpose of Martha's story about her friend as she's leaving in Last of the Time Lords). If not realising someone has a thing for you and you're being nice to them is counted as mixed signals, just about everyone in the world has "mistreated" other people they've encountered in their lives, because everyone is bound to have at least one person in their lives have a crush on them without them knowing. If you're referring to Human Nature/ Family of Blood about making her a second class citizen, he didn't do that either. He says: "...the TARDIS will take care of everything. Invent a life story for me, find me a setting and integrate me." So that's entirely the fault of the TARDIS! It's not fair to blame him for that. Fair enough, I still don’t think he treated her the best but, it’s interesting to hear another perspective.🤔🙂
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Post by timegirl on Oct 20, 2020 2:03:46 GMT
Last Christmas should have ended with the original ending of Clara dying of old age, the ending they went with was crap.
I am so so tired of hearing this criticism! I think the ending they went with was beautiful and uplifting, and I cry every time I watch it! I think it’s legitimately one of the best endings of not just any Who Christmas special but Who in general! There is something just genuinely magical about the moment when they are on Clara’s bed, the music swells and she kisses 12 on the cheek, and then they run off together! Also if this had been Clara’s last episode with her dying of old age, the story arch of series 9 would not work! Heaven Sent and Hell Bent, would never work with any other companion’s demise because of the incredibly deep bond between 12 and Clara. In conclusion, the ending they went with is extremely underrated and beautiful and Clara needed to stay on for series 9 to be as powerful as it was!
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 23, 2020 17:18:40 GMT
So, a bit more out there, but one that I think fits well. Here's film legend Ken Loach discussing thoughts on film criticism and how it engages with art. Listen to this and tell me, however indirectly, that you couldn't basically apply this to counter the 'Who can't be/was never political' bunkum. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wgg4cGqAWM
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2020 9:04:54 GMT
So, a bit more out there, but one that I think fits well. Here's film legend Ken Loach discussing thoughts on film criticism and how it engages with art. Listen to this and tell me, however indirectly, that you couldn't basically apply this to counter the 'Who can't be/was never political' bunkum. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wgg4cGqAWMTo follow on from that point: I think part of the reason why The Daleks was so successful back in 1964 and had such a resonant appeal was that it tapped into two major world events that had occurred basically one after the other -- the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962 and the assassination of John F. Kennedy in 1963. Skaro was a representation of every frenzied fear of atomic war, everything germinating over the past decade, made stone and the ambush on the Thals in the City, the killing of their leader in a surprise attack, likely held the same sting as hearing about JFK and the motorcade. There's a resonance with both, but a strong sense of catharsis with the latter. The Thals sitting in their encampment, unwilling to fight but knowing that the Daleks will come and kill them, wouldn't have felt too dissimilar from the attitudes of the viewers at home. The death of a major public figure was what had triggered the First World War, so for the generations who survived, it must have been a fear at the back of the mind. That tension of having to fight a third world war and not wanting to because they've done their bit. They've had enough conflict for a lifetime. What makes The Daleks more widely significant is that conversation with the Thals in "The Expedition" basically forms the foundation for Doctor Who's moral philosophy. "When is it right to go to war? Is it ever?" We've seen this revisited over and over again with the Doctor. It's a timelessly relevant debate, but for the time in which it was first born, it had a strong presence in the politics of its era. And even better, the conversations there in The Daleks don't decry pacifism as a weak philosophy or war as an unambiguously righteous cause. They give both sides a lot of clout and relevance through the main leads. Which is better for your people? To return to war and live, knowing that you may lose who you are and never return? Or, to spurn conflict and die utterly, but as yourselves? That's the choice in attitudes that they (and, by extension, the viewers at home) must make. Hence... That's almost the sixties in a nutshell. The swathe of counterculture and rights movements across the globe. If people were going to live in their new world, it was time that they were able to live as themselves.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 16, 2021 12:07:17 GMT
So more of an era overall, but we've done that before, so I'll say it: I think a lot of the discourse around the problems with the Chibnall era (present company excluded, of course) are not only poor, but pass over actual problems (the inconsistent use of companions, the bloated dialogue, the over-frenetic pacing) in favour of misattributing issues as Chibnall being the first to make them, or exaggerating trivial points as bigger deals.
For once, I'm not referring to the goobs who cry about 'politics': some of the other chestnuts include calling the Doctor passive in historical stories (paging every historical episode since Hartnell. Doctor's kind of made a big deal about not messing with recorded events many times. Plus, what did you expect 13 to do? End racism singlehandedly? Stop partition? Kind of running into the 'why doesn't the Doctor kill Hitler' paradox that you could level at any incarnation); calling her insensitive (giving big speeches to someone dealing with depression or mental health is kind of a little insulting, you know? I think 13 made the right call in not lecturing Graham on something deeply sensitive); calling all the stories bland and formulaic (this one I just... just...) or convinently acting like the good ones don't exist when it's time to dunk on Chibbs (whether you liked Rosa or not, we all saw the reaction to it. All those kids drawing pictures of her or teachers teaching ethused kids about the Civil Rights movement. That counts for a lot, regardless of how silly Krasko is.)
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Jan 22, 2021 1:56:39 GMT
Another one which goes a bit outside of, but started within, Who is 'Moffat was never a good writer', due to his mistakes as showrunner, and that everything was just hype. Throw in the 'Sherlock was always rubbish' under this too.
While I certainly have voiced my annoyances with some of Moffat's choices during his time (Clara, Asylum, Hell Bent, two out of three of Capaldi's arcs), they don't cancel out or erase his good work. There was a reason why Moffat drew immediate support when he was announced to take over from RTD: because his episodes were the highlights of their respective seasons. In some ways, Moffat was not merely a successor, but an evolution of Robert Holmes: same love of pastiche and gothic, but rooted in fears that anybody watching could relate to, and with a quality of character that, at times, could surpass almighty Bob because he wasn't straitjacketed by the serial formula. Blink was probably the perfect distillation of all this: new and familiar, inventive yet everything you could want in a Who story. Even when he became showrunner, there was still a lot to like from a writing standpoint. Same with Sherlock: even with the annoying fanbase and S3 and 4 vanishing up its own jaxie, those first two series become iconic for a reason.
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