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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2016 16:39:51 GMT
Surely she only became the girl who saved him from the Great Intelligence changing his timeline, changing things back to how they should have been? I'm not sure how that explains Dalek Clara. Or even Victorian Clara. We don't see any hint of how the Great Intelligence went back, and affected his timeline. We're told that she reverses what he put wrong. But in the two adventures we see with Splinter Clara, we don't see how it was put wrong, there is no hint to go back and look for, none I've seen at least.
Isn't there a line Clara says about how the Doctor hardly ever sees her or hears her, suggesting that those are two very rare exceptions where the Doctor bumps into the splinter rather than the splinter foiling the intelligence. There's no reason why every splinter of Clara had to end up where the intelligence was. The dalek one was a bit random, although the one in the snowman did have a Great Intelligence nearby so you can see why it would have been drawn there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2016 16:43:43 GMT
Surely she only became the girl who saved him from the Great Intelligence changing his timeline, changing things back to how they should have been? I'm not sure how that explains Dalek Clara. Or even Victorian Clara. We don't see any hint of how the Great Intelligence went back, and affected his timeline. We're told that she reverses what he put wrong. But in the two adventures we see with Splinter Clara, we don't see how it was put wrong, there is no hint to go back and look for, none I've seen at least.
And of course all of this is predicated on that most fatal of errors; expecting a Moffat plot device to follow internal logic.
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Post by randomjc on Feb 1, 2016 16:48:50 GMT
I'm not sure how that explains Dalek Clara. Or even Victorian Clara. We don't see any hint of how the Great Intelligence went back, and affected his timeline. We're told that she reverses what he put wrong. But in the two adventures we see with Splinter Clara, we don't see how it was put wrong, there is no hint to go back and look for, none I've seen at least.
Isn't there a line Clara says about how the Doctor hardly ever sees her or hears her, suggesting that those are two very rare exceptions where the Doctor bumps into the splinter rather than the splinter foiling the intelligence. There's no reason why every splinter of Clara had to end up where the intelligence was. The dalek one was a bit random, although the one in the snowman did have a Great Intelligence nearby so you can see why it would have been drawn there. Which then becomes we are TOLD that's what happens. We are never shown. The only thing we KNOW is that she shows up to save him. That without the almighty Clara, the Doctor isn't saved. (Yes, I am going over the top with that.)
And the old axiom of story telling "Show don't Tell" is forgotten to be told what she does, instead of seeing it.
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Post by randomjc on Feb 1, 2016 16:53:07 GMT
I'm not sure how that explains Dalek Clara. Or even Victorian Clara. We don't see any hint of how the Great Intelligence went back, and affected his timeline. We're told that she reverses what he put wrong. But in the two adventures we see with Splinter Clara, we don't see how it was put wrong, there is no hint to go back and look for, none I've seen at least.
And of course all of this is predicated on that most fatal of errors; expecting a Moffat plot device to follow internal logic. ...Which then makes it worse. Because it is a plot device, that now Clara is a god, and the supreme being, and the only one who matters. I may be speaking in hyperbole, but it's not hard to see why people are turned off by Clara. She doesn't save the doctor, she becomes BETTER than the Doctor. If she's so great, why don't we follow her around on her special adventures.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2016 18:40:34 GMT
And of course all of this is predicated on that most fatal of errors; expecting a Moffat plot device to follow internal logic. ...Which then makes it worse. Because it is a plot device, that now Clara is a god, and the supreme being, and the only one who matters. I may be speaking in hyperbole, but it's not hard to see why people are turned off by Clara. She doesn't save the doctor, she becomes BETTER than the Doctor. If she's so great, why don't we follow her around on her special adventures. As you've explained, to think that she is this flawless Great Intelligence killer, who single - handedly defeats his every effort to intervene in the Doctor's timeline without any of the participants even noticing is a bit over the top, and doesn't fit with her fate in Asylum (nor does it explain her different name, or well, anything about that episode really). A better explanation for me is to think that what happens is that Clara entering the Doctor's timeline allows her to block the Intelligence from intervening in the Doctor's timeline. So she isn't physically running around every adventure the Doctor's ever had killing thousands of splinters of the Intelligence, because it would only take one of them to win for the Doctor's timeline to come undone and we have a Lawrence Miles on our hands. Instead she has stopped any of it before it could ever happen just through the one act of jumping in. All of the splinters are therefore just her mucking about and showing off. She's already defeated the Intelligence and is just sticking around to take selfies in Bessie's wing mirror for a laugh. Asylum just shows what happens when you try to be clever. still don't know why she changed her name though.
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Post by Ela on Feb 1, 2016 18:51:36 GMT
...Which then makes it worse. Because it is a plot device, that now Clara is a god, and the supreme being, and the only one who matters. I may be speaking in hyperbole, but it's not hard to see why people are turned off by Clara. She doesn't save the doctor, she becomes BETTER than the Doctor. If she's so great, why don't we follow her around on her special adventures. As you've explained, to think that she is this flawless Great Intelligence killer, who single - handedly defeats his every effort to intervene in the Doctor's timeline without any of the participants even noticing is a bit over the top, and doesn't fit with her fate in Asylum (nor does it explain her different name, or well, anything about that episode really). A better explanation for me is to think that what happens is that Clara entering the Doctor's timeline allows her to block the Intelligence from intervening in the Doctor's timeline. So she isn't physically running around every adventure the Doctor's ever had killing thousands of splinters of the Intelligence, because it would only take one of them to win for the Doctor's timeline to come undone and we have a Lawrence Miles on our hands. Instead she has stopped any of it before it could ever happen just through the one act of jumping in. All of the splinters are therefore just her mucking about and showing off. She's already defeated the Intelligence and is just sticking around to take selfies in Bessie's wing mirror for a laugh. Asylum just shows what happens when you try to be clever. still don't know why she changed her name though. I like your explanation, @brians.
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Post by randomjc on Feb 1, 2016 19:03:15 GMT
...Which then makes it worse. Because it is a plot device, that now Clara is a god, and the supreme being, and the only one who matters. I may be speaking in hyperbole, but it's not hard to see why people are turned off by Clara. She doesn't save the doctor, she becomes BETTER than the Doctor. If she's so great, why don't we follow her around on her special adventures. As you've explained, to think that she is this flawless Great Intelligence killer, who single - handedly defeats his every effort to intervene in the Doctor's timeline without any of the participants even noticing is a bit over the top, and doesn't fit with her fate in Asylum (nor does it explain her different name, or well, anything about that episode really). A better explanation for me is to think that what happens is that Clara entering the Doctor's timeline allows her to block the Intelligence from intervening in the Doctor's timeline. So she isn't physically running around every adventure the Doctor's ever had killing thousands of splinters of the Intelligence, because it would only take one of them to win for the Doctor's timeline to come undone and we have a Lawrence Miles on our hands. Instead she has stopped any of it before it could ever happen just through the one act of jumping in. All of the splinters are therefore just her mucking about and showing off. She's already defeated the Intelligence and is just sticking around to take selfies in Bessie's wing mirror for a laugh. Asylum just shows what happens when you try to be clever. still don't know why she changed her name though. Which would be he rewrote one of the best parts of the Doctor's Wife, (The Tardis chose him) to instead be, a Clara splinter for no reason, since GI was already defeated by her existence, tells the Doctor to take that Tardis instead. Which then would create the oddity how she seems to know who he is in some of those splinters (The first doctor one, for instance) but not others. She seems to be racing to tell the Doctor something, crying out for him in Dragonfire. It's a complicated web that isn't fully thought out, and it shows when even a strand is lightly tugged.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2016 19:12:09 GMT
As you've explained, to think that she is this flawless Great Intelligence killer, who single - handedly defeats his every effort to intervene in the Doctor's timeline without any of the participants even noticing is a bit over the top, and doesn't fit with her fate in Asylum (nor does it explain her different name, or well, anything about that episode really). A better explanation for me is to think that what happens is that Clara entering the Doctor's timeline allows her to block the Intelligence from intervening in the Doctor's timeline. So she isn't physically running around every adventure the Doctor's ever had killing thousands of splinters of the Intelligence, because it would only take one of them to win for the Doctor's timeline to come undone and we have a Lawrence Miles on our hands. Instead she has stopped any of it before it could ever happen just through the one act of jumping in. All of the splinters are therefore just her mucking about and showing off. She's already defeated the Intelligence and is just sticking around to take selfies in Bessie's wing mirror for a laugh. Asylum just shows what happens when you try to be clever. still don't know why she changed her name though. Which would be he rewrote one of the best parts of the Doctor's Wife, (The Tardis chose him) to instead be, a Clara splinter for no reason, since GI was already defeated by her existence, tells the Doctor to take that Tardis instead. Which then would create the oddity how she seems to know who he is in some of those splinters (The first doctor one, for instance) but not others. She seems to be racing to tell the Doctor something, crying out for him in Dragonfire. It's a complicated web that isn't fully thought out, and it shows when even a strand is lightly tugged. As I said, it's a mistake to expect Moffat to show much logic in his plot devices. The conflicting stories behimd the TARDIS selection annoy the heck out of me. I would say the one he was about to choose was locked so Clara's actions wer irrelevant, but Big Finish contradict that so I'm afraid The Doctor's Wife becomes the TARDIS's retcon version of events from her perspective. Clara running to save the Doctor from the cliff in Dragonfire had nothing to do with the Intelligence, since his falling off the cliff had nothing to do with the Intelligence. It was just typical Clara thinking the Doctor would be doomed if she didn't save him (which she didn't, he saved himself).
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Post by randomjc on Feb 1, 2016 19:45:46 GMT
Which would be he rewrote one of the best parts of the Doctor's Wife, (The Tardis chose him) to instead be, a Clara splinter for no reason, since GI was already defeated by her existence, tells the Doctor to take that Tardis instead. Which then would create the oddity how she seems to know who he is in some of those splinters (The first doctor one, for instance) but not others. She seems to be racing to tell the Doctor something, crying out for him in Dragonfire. It's a complicated web that isn't fully thought out, and it shows when even a strand is lightly tugged. As I said, it's a mistake to expect Moffat to show much logic in his plot devices. The conflicting stories behimd the TARDIS selection annoy the heck out of me. I would say the one he was about to choose was locked so Clara's actions wer irrelevant, but Big Finish contradict that so I'm afraid The Doctor's Wife becomes the TARDIS's retcon version of events from her perspective. Clara running to save the Doctor from the cliff in Dragonfire had nothing to do with the Intelligence, since his falling off the cliff had nothing to do with the Intelligence. It was just typical Clara thinking the Doctor would be doomed if she didn't save him (which she didn't, he saved himself). hence why the Clara splinter meeting Ace (or any future reference) is a bad idea. The show itself lacks internal logic. does she know who the Doctor is (Dalek and Victorian Clara don't appear to), while the splinters from the start of the episode implies she does.
Didn't Hartnell usher Susan inside the Tardis, so it wasn't locked. In the end, it's a muddled mess of a pile of crap that makes no sense outside the lovely fanwack of an episode. I really like Name of the Doctor, but it's internal logic doesn't fly well. Moffatt, as a whole, is often too clever for his own good.
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Post by yiffniff on Feb 3, 2016 3:07:14 GMT
My guess is mainly new series related with an odd classic series announcement. Probably The Third Doctor Adventures 2, The Tenth Doctor Adventures Volume 2 starring Freema Ageyman, Jago & Litefoot & Strax & Madam Vastra and new series Short Trips. Didn't David Tennant insist the Tenth Doctor sets be with Donna? I'm sure this was all very off the cuff: "Oooo, yes, I think I can do that. Oh! You know what? Let's ask Catherine. She'd love to do it. I was just talking to her. Here, I'll text her now ... "
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Feb 3, 2016 15:28:57 GMT
Didn't David Tennant insist the Tenth Doctor sets be with Donna? I'm sure this was all very off the cuff: "Oooo, yes, I think I can do that. Oh! You know what? Let's ask Catherine. She'd love to do it. I was just talking to her. Here, I'll text her now ... " Seems likely, given that David Tennant is a Whovian.
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Post by constonks on Feb 4, 2016 17:17:30 GMT
As you've explained, to think that she is this flawless Great Intelligence killer, who single - handedly defeats his every effort to intervene in the Doctor's timeline without any of the participants even noticing is a bit over the top, and doesn't fit with her fate in Asylum (nor does it explain her different name, or well, anything about that episode really). A better explanation for me is to think that what happens is that Clara entering the Doctor's timeline allows her to block the Intelligence from intervening in the Doctor's timeline. So she isn't physically running around every adventure the Doctor's ever had killing thousands of splinters of the Intelligence, because it would only take one of them to win for the Doctor's timeline to come undone and we have a Lawrence Miles on our hands. Instead she has stopped any of it before it could ever happen just through the one act of jumping in. All of the splinters are therefore just her mucking about and showing off. She's already defeated the Intelligence and is just sticking around to take selfies in Bessie's wing mirror for a laugh. Asylum just shows what happens when you try to be clever. still don't know why she changed her name though. Which would be he rewrote one of the best parts of the Doctor's Wife, (The Tardis chose him) to instead be, a Clara splinter for no reason, since GI was already defeated by her existence, tells the Doctor to take that Tardis instead. Which then would create the oddity how she seems to know who he is in some of those splinters (The first doctor one, for instance) but not others. She seems to be racing to tell the Doctor something, crying out for him in Dragonfire. It's a complicated web that isn't fully thought out, and it shows when even a strand is lightly tugged. The time crack replaced the console of the TARDIS... who's to say the TARDIS didn't influence where Clara landed?
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Post by randomjc on Feb 4, 2016 17:31:07 GMT
Which would be he rewrote one of the best parts of the Doctor's Wife, (The Tardis chose him) to instead be, a Clara splinter for no reason, since GI was already defeated by her existence, tells the Doctor to take that Tardis instead. Which then would create the oddity how she seems to know who he is in some of those splinters (The first doctor one, for instance) but not others. She seems to be racing to tell the Doctor something, crying out for him in Dragonfire. It's a complicated web that isn't fully thought out, and it shows when even a strand is lightly tugged. The time crack replaced the console of the TARDIS... who's to say the TARDIS didn't influence where Clara landed? Who's to say it did? It doesn't explain how she knew about him sometimes and other times didn't.
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Post by yiffniff on Feb 4, 2016 23:24:09 GMT
Oh, I've got one! Before the kill her mercilessly in The Time War I want to see a Leela and Strax story. I pity whomever they end up at odds with. Strax: "I suggest we use the big grenades." Leela: "How many do you have?" Strax: "Ten." Leela: "Use them all."
Meanwhile, with the new Victorian Torchwood episode, exactly how many characters do we have in Victorian England now? Could we have a "Jago & Litefoot & Strax & Vastra & Jenny & Jack Harkness & Who the heck else am I forgetting?"
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Post by constonks on Feb 5, 2016 1:48:29 GMT
The time crack replaced the console of the TARDIS... who's to say the TARDIS didn't influence where Clara landed? Who's to say it did? It doesn't explain how she knew about him sometimes and other times didn't. Nope! Not at all! Although... who knows when she found out about the Doctor in those timelines? They might not have Clara's memories, but rather learned about the Doctor in their own lives somehow??? (I agree that's not how it makes it seem in the episode - I'm just clutching at straws here.)
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Post by randomjc on Feb 5, 2016 1:54:39 GMT
Who's to say it did? It doesn't explain how she knew about him sometimes and other times didn't. Nope! Not at all! Although... who knows when she found out about the Doctor in those timelines? They might not have Clara's memories, but rather learned about the Doctor in their own lives somehow??? (I agree that's not how it makes it seem in the episode - I'm just clutching at straws here.) In the end, I can say it's an enjoyable episode. So I think I'll put this back and forth to an end for now, until a splinter Clara shows up, and my fan-rage can boil over. (Or maybe argue for the sake of trying to figure it out myself, instead of actually having that strong a feeling either way.)
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Post by constonks on Feb 5, 2016 4:02:57 GMT
Nope! Not at all! Although... who knows when she found out about the Doctor in those timelines? They might not have Clara's memories, but rather learned about the Doctor in their own lives somehow??? (I agree that's not how it makes it seem in the episode - I'm just clutching at straws here.) In the end, I can say it's an enjoyable episode. So I think I'll put this back and forth to an end for now, until a splinter Clara shows up, and my fan-rage can boil over. (Or maybe argue for the sake of trying to figure it out myself, instead of actually having that strong a feeling either way.) I have to agree. Like so many Moffat finales, I loved every minute of it and then fifteen minutes later started thinking about it for the rest of my life.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Feb 5, 2016 9:06:37 GMT
Oh, I've got one! Before the kill her mercilessly in The Time War I want to see a Leela and Strax story. I pity whomever they end up at odds with. Strax: "I suggest we use the big grenades." Leela: "How many do you have?" Strax: "Ten." Leela: "Use them all." Meanwhile, with the new Victorian Torchwood episode, exactly how many characters do we have in Victorian England now? Could we have a "Jago & Litefoot & Strax & Vastra & Jenny & Jack Harkness & Who the heck else am I forgetting?" They could do a Marvel and construct a VAU (Victorian Audio Universe) around it.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Feb 5, 2016 9:39:24 GMT
How the hell did Torchwood miss a Silurian and a Sontaran in London?
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Feb 5, 2016 15:38:28 GMT
How the hell did Torchwood miss a Silurian and a Sontaran in London? I would imagine Strax and Madam Vastra use perception filters most of the time when out in public.
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