|
Post by timegirl on Oct 1, 2021 18:43:26 GMT
I bet BF will address it one day in a cleverly titled release called “The Two Marys” where the two Mary Shelleys somehow meet and compare notes on 8 and 13. It’s inevitable 😉
|
|
|
Post by J.A. Prentice on Oct 1, 2021 20:04:14 GMT
I think “Time War” easily covers it. There’s also a third Mary Shelley story in Doctor Who Battle in Time which predates either of them and Big Finish didn’t reference that. She’s a fascinating historical figure, so it makes sense that Doctor Who would want to use her, even if someone else got there first. These sort of contradictions are inevitable.
|
|
|
Post by barnabaslives on Oct 1, 2021 21:06:30 GMT
Now look, I like Silver Turk too, but would anyone here really put the Shelley series as among BF's best, or even the best of 8? Did Mary really have that much, or even that great, an arc across the four stories that we really lose much anyway? Well, maybe not but I do think of that Big Finish arc as very special, for a number of reasons. If it came down to those or the TV series, I think I'd rather keep the Big Finish stories, but thankfully it doesn't come down to making that choice as has been demonstrated in this thread. It IS a case though where I kind of wish the TV series had played off Big Finish just a bit - I mean the series is always making references outside its own immediate scope anyway, it probably would have been okay if the general audience didn't have a clue that BF was being referenced - but it might have nice for those "in the know" just because bringing in Mary Shelley and framing a Frankenstein-Cyberman comparison isn't necessarily the most original idea.
|
|
|
Post by Kestrel on Oct 2, 2021 17:48:15 GMT
Now look, I like Silver Turk too, but would anyone here really put the Shelley series as among BF's best, or even the best of 8? Did Mary really have that much, or even that great, an arc across the four stories that we really lose much anyway? *raises hand* Me. I would. TBH I think the Shelley stories are the best of 8's "romantic adventure hero" styling that characterized the front half of his stories. I definitely find that "arc" more interesting than the Lucie Miller and Charlotte Pollard stuff -- partly because it's simple and focused rather than long and convoluted. It never once felt like they were coasting when Shelley was the companion.
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 2, 2021 17:55:12 GMT
Now look, I like Silver Turk too, but would anyone here really put the Shelley series as among BF's best, or even the best of 8? Did Mary really have that much, or even that great, an arc across the four stories that we really lose much anyway? *raises hand* Me. I would. TBH I think the Shelley stories are the best of 8's "romantic adventure hero" styling that characterized the front half of his stories. I definitely find that "arc" more interesting than the Lucie Miller and Charlotte Pollard stuff -- partly because it's simple and focused rather than long and convoluted. It never once felt like they were coasting when Shelley was the companion. I do see the appeal of that, but does the affection extend to Witch from the Well and Army of Death equally, or is it mainly for Mary's Story and Silver Turk?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 17:57:14 GMT
I liked Mary Shelley as a companion to the Eighth Doctor, plus I thought The Silver Turk was very very good. I don't think Mary Shelley brought too much to the table though, beyond being a famous name from the past. I wouldn't have minded more Eight/Mary Shelley stories but I still think the Eighth Doctor with Charley/Lucie were better combos.
|
|
|
Post by sherlock on Oct 2, 2021 19:22:25 GMT
I’d never expect the TV series to bow to Big Finish’s continuity. If a writer pitches an idea that’s good but it conflicts with an audio, the audio should not matter.
Odds are Big Finish themselves will explain it someday. John Dorney very nearly did already in the cut scene of Return of the Cybermen. In the meantime, just blame the Time War, or Ashad meddling with time.
|
|
|
Post by Kestrel on Oct 2, 2021 21:02:33 GMT
*raises hand* Me. I would. TBH I think the Shelley stories are the best of 8's "romantic adventure hero" styling that characterized the front half of his stories. I definitely find that "arc" more interesting than the Lucie Miller and Charlotte Pollard stuff -- partly because it's simple and focused rather than long and convoluted. It never once felt like they were coasting when Shelley was the companion. I do see the appeal of that, but does the affection extend to Witch from the Well and Army of Death equally, or is it mainly for Mary's Story and Silver Turk? I don't remember Army of Death well, but I definitely found Witch From the Well more enjoyable than The Silver Turk. I'm a real sucker for "fish out of temporal water" stories, and the ironic ending was perfect. Really embodies everything I most love about the 8th Doctor's early years.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 9:33:59 GMT
I do see the appeal of that, but does the affection extend to Witch from the Well and Army of Death equally, or is it mainly for Mary's Story and Silver Turk? I don't remember Army of Death well, but I definitely found Witch From the Well more enjoyable than The Silver Turk. I'm a real sucker for "fish out of temporal water" stories, and the ironic ending was perfect. Really embodies everything I most love about the 8th Doctor's early years. Tonally, I remember finding them to be probably the closest that Big Finish has come to emulating a "What if the series were picked up as a Fox/BBC production?" approach. There's a distinctly TV Movie vibe to the trilogy that just isn't found in most other stories. Not to say I have a value judgement either way, it's just an observation, but it is unusual enough to almost be unique for the audios. I remember being intrigued by that.
|
|
|
Post by Kestrel on Oct 3, 2021 11:08:01 GMT
Yeah, that's kind of what I meant when I described 8 as a "romantic" hero. I'm not sure if he quite qualifies as Byronic, but despite its (many) problems I think the TV movie did a fantastic job evoking a very particular tone and aesthetic for the Doctor--a very Victorianesque adventurer hero thing--that the Shelley stories managed to recapture really well.
And I think I'm also inclined to view this set of stories more positively despite not exactly being enamored with the character because, I think, (and I hope this doesn't upset anyone) I think most companions tend to overstay their welcome. Yes, even the really good ones! Ultimately the role of "companion" is always going to be reducible to "sidekick," so it's almost worse when really good companions stay on board for a long time--almost stagnating. Like, for example, Leela is one of my absolute favorite companions... but she becomes so much more interesting and dynamic as a character after leaving the TARDIS.
Shelley benefits enormously, I think, from a short run bookended by excellent stories, and promptly moving aside for a new companion to come on board.
|
|
|
Post by fitzoliverj on Oct 3, 2021 12:02:25 GMT
The thing about the whoel Mary Shelley doubling, is that it would be irritating but ultimately inevitable when there's so much expanded universe tuff out there, inevitably some ideas are goning to be duplicated - but the fact that it's Chibnall is particularly galling. This is the man, remember, who invented the completely original character of Kate Stewart, without any knowledge of the pre-existing Kate Lethbridge-Stewart (their actresses even look similar, for heaven's sake). Also, the name of alien Lenny Henry's company (whatever happened with THAT?) resembles an old enemy from the wilderness years novels.
It's no hardship to stick a name into the tardis wiki/fandom and check it's not in use already. Hell, "Vienna Salvatore" is DEFINITELY free...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 18:14:51 GMT
BF is made no less canon by Haunting of Villa Diodati contradicting the Mary Shelley audios than the classic series is made less canon by The End of the World contradicting The Ark. Or Atlantis being destroyed three times, or the Doctor being half human once, or suddenly growing a second heart. There is a big difference between a companion on the same day vs a plot.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 20:15:34 GMT
BF is made no less canon by Haunting of Villa Diodati contradicting the Mary Shelley audios than the classic series is made less canon by The End of the World contradicting The Ark. Or Atlantis being destroyed three times, or the Doctor being half human once, or suddenly growing a second heart. There is a big difference between a companion on the same day vs a plot. There genuinely isn't. I have to conclude at this point you're just looking for excuses to hate Chibnall (as if any were needed). I can't understand why, given a series which happily ignores Salamander's rise to power in 2018, anyone can instead choose to be offended by two differing versions of one day in history.
|
|
|
Post by johnhurtdoctor on Oct 3, 2021 20:27:43 GMT
There is a big difference between a companion on the same day vs a plot. There genuinely isn't. I have to conclude at this point you're just looking for excuses to hate Chibnall (as if any were needed). I can't understand why, given a series which happily ignores Salamander's rise to power in 2018, anyone can instead choose to be offended by two differing versions of one day in history. Exactly, there are so many inconsistencies within the show itself as opposed to between the show & BF. To get hung up on this is just Chibnall bashing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 20:59:56 GMT
It's a bit of a silly debate to be frank. As I said earlier, showrunners aren't always consistent with their own material much less checking other eras - and certainly much less checking of ancillary licenced media. BF have created thousands of stories. To say they get "dibs" and the TV show should respect that is silly. BF sell in the low thousands. The TV show is seen by millions worldwide who don't know, or care, about anything but the TV show. To deprive the mass audience of good stories just because BF did something first...churlish. Cybermen and Mary Shelley is not an out there idea. They're a natural avatar for her most famous work. As such, with the show wanting to focus on stories featuring remarkable women more, I'm 100% sure the TV ep would have happened anyway. The show MUST take precedence. It's messy sometimes, it's not always fair (like when BF were barred from using The Master for a while in 2006-2007ish) but it has to be that way. Not because it's the medium with the best stories, that's subjective, but because it's where the mass audience is. And that audience need to be given the best show possible for Who to thrive. And for that - showrunners must have as much freedom as they can get. Being handcuffed because of licenced media would rule out a LOT of things given 60 years of comics, 30 years of original novels and 22 years of audios. There will be overlap. I love the Atlantis example. Uncle Terrance was asked about it and basically said "well, the show wasn't repeated then. So if you haven't seen the idea before, as most kids hadn't with Atlantis...it's new to them, and that's all we care about". No-one was legislating for a "franchise" with programme guides, wikis, "canon" and whatnot. It was just the show. As Brians says, there's plenty of real things to criticise CC for in this era, again subjectively - so let's not give credence to the silly ones that are objectively...BS.. And frankly on this occasion...the TV ep beats the Shelley trilogy for me!
|
|
|
Post by theillusiveman on Oct 3, 2021 23:29:28 GMT
BF is made no less canon by Haunting of Villa Diodati contradicting the Mary Shelley audios than the classic series is made less canon by The End of the World contradicting The Ark. Or Atlantis being destroyed three times, or the Doctor being half human once, or suddenly growing a second heart. There is a big difference between a companion on the same day vs a plot. Exactly what the others are forgetting is that Mary Shelly was a companion and had a huge influence on The 8th Doctors era The 8th Doctor being half human could easily be explained as he was born half human but around the war games regeneration they decided to fix the doctors biology by making him pure time lord Also wasn’t it established that time lords grow their second heart after their first regeneration
|
|
|
Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 3, 2021 23:48:42 GMT
There is a big difference between a companion on the same day vs a plot. Exactly what the others are forgetting is that Mary Shelly was a companion and had a huge influence on The 8th Doctors era The 8th Doctor being half human could easily be explained as he was born half human but around the war games regeneration they decided to fix the doctors biology by making him pure time lord Also wasn’t it established that time lords grow their second heart after their first regeneration I don't think it's a case of forgetting, just stating that the show's canon is extremely malleable and that there are incidents much more egregious and no one is demanding those be 'respected' or treated as sacred. Which is not just valid, but borne out by the history of the franchise itself.
Besides, I think it's a bit of overstatement to call the Shelley stories 'hugely influential' considering that Dark Eyes was immediately after and has had a far bigger influence on 8 at BF than any of the Shelley stories. By the time Mary's Story was made, we'd had Charley's era and were firmly in Lucie's. If you like them more personally, that's fine (I like Cox and Turk too), but we shouldn't conflate 'favourite' with 'important'. They're different things.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2021 23:53:01 GMT
It's a bit of a silly debate to be frank. As I said earlier, showrunners aren't always consistent with their own material much less checking other eras - and certainly much less checking of ancillary licenced media. BF have created thousands of stories. To say they get "dibs" and the TV show should respect that is silly. BF sell in the low thousands. The TV show is seen by millions worldwide who don't know, or care, about anything but the TV show. To deprive the mass audience of good stories just because BF did something first...churlish. Cybermen and Mary Shelley is not an out there idea. They're a natural avatar for her most famous work. As such, with the show wanting to focus on stories featuring remarkable women more, I'm 100% sure the TV ep would have happened anyway. The show MUST take precedence. It's messy sometimes, it's not always fair (like when BF were barred from using The Master for a while in 2006-2007ish) but it has to be that way. Not because it's the medium with the best stories, that's subjective, but because it's where the mass audience is. And that audience need to be given the best show possible for Who to thrive. And for that - showrunners must have as much freedom as they can get. Being handcuffed because of licenced media would rule out a LOT of things given 60 years of comics, 30 years of original novels and 22 years of audios. There will be overlap. I love the Atlantis example. Uncle Terrance was asked about it and basically said "well, the show wasn't repeated then. So if you haven't seen the idea before, as most kids hadn't with Atlantis...it's new to them, and that's all we care about". No-one was legislating for a "franchise" with programme guides, wikis, "canon" and whatnot. It was just the show.
As Brians says, there's plenty of real things to criticise CC for in this era, again subjectively - so let's not give credence to the silly ones that are objectively...BS.. And frankly on this occasion...the TV ep beats the Shelley trilogy for me! The Atlantis example cracks a smile for me because there's a real world precedent for the overlap. We're familiar with London, England, but there's also London, Ontario... London, Ohio... London, California... London, Kentucky... The decision to retroactively make it three (at last count) possible Atlantises is an, ironically, rather realistic approach. I'm kind of surprised after all these years we haven't had a "The Doctor and Plato go to Atlantis" story, as it's mentioned in The Republic as a hostile naval force besieging Athens. There's something to be made of that...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 0:17:16 GMT
It's a bit of a silly debate to be frank. As I said earlier, showrunners aren't always consistent with their own material much less checking other eras - and certainly much less checking of ancillary licenced media. BF have created thousands of stories. To say they get "dibs" and the TV show should respect that is silly. BF sell in the low thousands. The TV show is seen by millions worldwide who don't know, or care, about anything but the TV show. To deprive the mass audience of good stories just because BF did something first...churlish. Cybermen and Mary Shelley is not an out there idea. They're a natural avatar for her most famous work. As such, with the show wanting to focus on stories featuring remarkable women more, I'm 100% sure the TV ep would have happened anyway. The show MUST take precedence. It's messy sometimes, it's not always fair (like when BF were barred from using The Master for a while in 2006-2007ish) but it has to be that way. Not because it's the medium with the best stories, that's subjective, but because it's where the mass audience is. And that audience need to be given the best show possible for Who to thrive. And for that - showrunners must have as much freedom as they can get. Being handcuffed because of licenced media would rule out a LOT of things given 60 years of comics, 30 years of original novels and 22 years of audios. There will be overlap. I love the Atlantis example. Uncle Terrance was asked about it and basically said "well, the show wasn't repeated then. So if you haven't seen the idea before, as most kids hadn't with Atlantis...it's new to them, and that's all we care about". No-one was legislating for a "franchise" with programme guides, wikis, "canon" and whatnot. It was just the show.
As Brians says, there's plenty of real things to criticise CC for in this era, again subjectively - so let's not give credence to the silly ones that are objectively...BS.. And frankly on this occasion...the TV ep beats the Shelley trilogy for me! The Atlantis example cracks a smile for me because there's a real world precedent for the overlap. We're familiar with London, England, but there's also London, Ontario... London, Ohio... London, California... London, Kentucky... The decision to retroactively make it three (at last count) possible Atlantises is an, ironically, rather realistic approach. I'm kind of surprised after all these years we haven't had a "The Doctor and Plato go to Atlantis" story, as it's mentioned in The Republic as a hostile naval force besieging Athens. There's something to be made of that... Well, that's something a bit different surely? We know that the "real" Atlantis (*cough*) was a rather huge landmass covering much of the Atlantic ocean in most re-tellings - including the Who ones. I'm guessing it wasn't intended to be 3 separate huge land masses with the same name, like the London example. Interesting notion though - there must be examples of Who stories set in separate places with the same name. We've had York, New York and New, New, New, New, New, New, New, New York which is another type of example again, I suppose!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2021 0:37:04 GMT
There is a big difference between a companion on the same day vs a plot. Exactly what the others are forgetting is that Mary Shelly was a companion and had a huge influence on The 8th Doctors era The 8th Doctor being half human could easily be explained as he was born half human but around the war games regeneration they decided to fix the doctors biology by making him pure time lord Also wasn’t it established that time lords grow their second heart after their first regeneration Yeah....I think you're trying to tell the choir how the hymns go here, "the others" are mostly very, very well versed with BF, not some newbies who are talking out the wrong side of their mouths. And things like that half-human War Games retcon are another example of what we're talking about here. Phil Segal thought it was a good idea and it was part of the Leekley Bible (how do us "others" know about such things!?) to be developed if the show went to series. It was one potential new showrunner just making something up and ignored by the others (though Moffat did tease it might be part of The Hybrid arc). Nothing more. Doesn't need an explanation or retconning. Just like Troughton said Timelords were "immortal, barring accidents" but then 7 years on, Robert Holmes completely ignored that, scratched it out of "canon" and came up with the regeneration limit, purely to give the decayed Master a motive for his actions. Not to establish great lore that would be pondered for years - just for the sake of a few teatimes in 1976. Then, Uncle Terrance decided in The Five Doctors to add caveats to that, saying Timelords could add a new regeneration cycle. Moffat took him up on that in Time Of The Doctor. These are all the prerogative of the showrunner - to ignore, to add to, to erase, if they deem it important for the ongoing story. With SO many contradictions and overlaps that have fans jumping through hoops trying to reconcile them - it's so much easier to take a "wibbly-wobbly, timey wimey" approach. It's one of Moffat's most deft lines, as silly as it is. As it really means "accept this is a very old show that doesn't always make sense or you won't like it".
|
|