|
Post by Ela on Jan 3, 2024 19:23:24 GMT
I haven’t watched Game of Thrones only read the books. I know that some people, including my daughter, were turned off by the violence. And I don’t know if you are talking about the books or the show, but from what I heard they kind of capitalized on the violent aspects of the story to the point that it was worse in the show than in the books. And although I wanted to watch the show at first, the more I heard about it, the less I wanted to watch it. Back to your regularly scheduled Big Finish discussion. To be fair the violence is pretty even through both male & female. It can definitely be uncomfortable for those of the squeamish persuasion- absolutely. Yup. I wasn't distinguishing between male and female violence. Just making a general commentary on the violence in the series.
|
|
shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,677
|
Post by shutupbanks on Jan 3, 2024 23:10:31 GMT
I haven’t watched Game of Thrones only read the books. I know that some people, including my daughter, were turned off by the violence. And I don’t know if you are talking about the books or the show, but from what I heard they kind of capitalized on the violent aspects of the story to the point that it was worse in the show than in the books. And although I wanted to watch the show at first, the more I heard about it, the less I wanted to watch it. Back to your regularly scheduled Big Finish discussion. To be fair the violence is pretty even through both male & female. It can definitely be uncomfortable for those of the squeamish persuasion- absolutely. Martin has written some brilliant short stories but I have never finished a single one of his novels. In ASOIAF (of which I have started three of the books and not finished them) I frequently felt that he was being violent for the sake of being violent - it was the 90s, after all. The tv series reflected that, but gave it a Jackson’s-LOTR vibe as well. I only lasted 4 seasons before it started to pall for me there as well. In the case of BF - to get back on track - I often feel that Survivors was trying the trick that, as an example, Vonda McIntyre used in Dreamsnake where a cataclysm had occurred and society came back a little kinder, without making the mistakes that led to the catastrophe.
|
|
shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,677
|
Post by shutupbanks on Jan 3, 2024 23:30:06 GMT
I also think there is a bit of wish fulfillment on the part of the Creatives to assume that the changes in social attitudes that has happened in the real world since the 1970s - in terms of attitudes to women and homosexuals - would have happened in the world of Survivors. Maybe I'm a cynic, but if anything I would imagine a post-apocalyptic society would go in the opposite direction. However the kind of stories BF want to tell requires that assumption. It also requires Jenny to be a bad mother who basically abandons her son to be fostered by Charles & Pet, which again I don't think is really true to the TV series and for Jenny to listen to Abby frequently talking about Peter yet never mention her own son Paul is just plain unbelievable. And yet it is all needed to fit the square peg that was Survivors into the round hole the BF want it in. So I don't think Survivors is the best vehicle to tell these kinds of stories, or at least to tell them in the way that BF have done. I think this is an excellent point about changes in society and the way we tell stories. And I agree in part about how it changes what Survivors was originally about; however, when the production team on the tv show changed, this was also reflected in the focus of the show as well and how we got stories about living on farms rather than surviving in a barbaric society. I love the point you make about Jenny abandoning her child, but there’s frequently male protagonists in drama who abandon their families to go on some kind of journey and they rarely mention them. It’s a bad character choice here as well as there. BF are doing what a lot of shows did in the 60s and 70s where characters were shoehorned into a story to reflect an issue in society and to provide an opportunity for discussion about it. Sometimes - like the Mary Tyler Moore show - it was done brilliantly other times - like nearly everything else - it was quite clunky.
|
|
shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,677
|
Post by shutupbanks on Jan 3, 2024 23:31:32 GMT
For my own part, I haven’t bought much BF lately because their storytelling choices frequently fall into “wouldn’t it be cool if X teamed up with Y…” which is what put me off comics for many years. It’s ruined some otherwise brilliant story ideas because the focus stops being about the stories and how the characters deal,with them to being about which cool combinations of characters can we get to enact these ideas. I wonder if this narrative direction came from the same efficiency drive that gave us “For the love of stories.”
|
|
|
Post by bonehead on Jan 4, 2024 0:15:51 GMT
I still don't think the magic has gone when I notice how excited I am by the announcement of certain new releases, but this thread has proven to be very interesting reading.
Does anyone have a fondness for the old classic Universal monster films from the '30s and '40s? I was watching 'Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman' earlier from 1942. Universal felt that, by bringing the monsters all together in a big mash-up, they'd be more popular than ever - surely! By 1945, their series of such films was over. Too many gimmicks and no new ideas
I hope Big Finish doesn't go too far down a similar path.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Jan 4, 2024 0:48:59 GMT
I still don't think the magic has gone when I notice how excited I am by the announcement of certain new releases, but this thread has proven to be very interesting reading. Does anyone have a fondness for the old classic Universal monster films from the '30s and '40s? I was watching 'Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman' earlier from 1942. Universal felt that, by bringing the monsters all together in a big mash-up, they'd be more popular than ever - surely! By 1945, their series of such films was over. Too many gimmicks and no new ideas I hope Big Finish doesn't go too far down a similar path. Yes, most definitely! Because...
'Even a man who's a big 'Who' fan and hears BF each night, may watch movies old when the air is cold and the autumn moon is bright!'
As the gypsy seer doesn't quite say in 'The Wolfman', but it was in that spirit!
I'm sure the pure horror film fans of the day said 'This is the END!' when the studio started to release 'Abbott and Costello Meet...' but the audiences loved them! And a few more years were added to the franchise before that twist also ran its course. The moral might be, BF can gain some extra interest and sales with 'X meets Y' releases but if they overdo it, the sales will diminish. Ultimately, it's the scripts that count; by now I guess we all take the great performances and production standards for granted; we shouldn't, but I do anyway! So, my favourite BF of 2023 was the 3DAs: Intelligence for War. I knew the cast would be excellent and they were; it was Eddie Robson's brilliant Season 7 script that took it to the very top for me.
|
|
|
Post by Kestrel on Jan 4, 2024 3:58:18 GMT
So I think pretty much everything I have to say on this topic has already been said (so forgive me for repeating some of it below) but I am a bit curious if my opinions might soon change. I first got into Big Finish largely out of disillusionment with televised Doctor Who. Yes, I was sent here by way of 'The Timeless Child.' It was bad. Real bad. And the ensuing conversations in the fandom so much worse. So I basically said goodbye to all of it, deciding I still loved Doctor Who, and if I couldn't find the Doctor Who I loved on TV, I'd find it elsewhere. Since then I've been pretty apathetic about the TV show. I didn't even bother watching Flux when it aired, waiting several months before viewing it. It was... it was almost okay, in parts. Pretty bad in others. Extraordinarily baffling in many. It cemented an opinion of mine that had slowly been hardening in my mind over the past few years: the Doctor Who's last, best destiny is the audio drama format. But what will I think if and when shiny new Doctor Who stories are airing on TV? Will I still think so highly of the audio dramas? Will I be so distracted by the sexy new Doctor that I lose track of what made me fall in love with audio dramas in the first place? And if Big Finish is getting "worse," how might it seem juxtaposed to a televised Doctor Who that's getting "better?" It will be... an interesting moment or two of consideration, I think. For my own part, I haven’t bought much BF lately because their storytelling choices frequently fall into “wouldn’t it be cool if X teamed up with Y…” which is what put me off comics for many years. It’s ruined some otherwise brilliant story ideas because the focus stops being about the stories and how the characters deal,with them to being about which cool combinations of characters can we get to enact these ideas. I wonder if this narrative direction came from the same efficiency drive that gave us “For the love of stories.” Reminds me of all the various takes on the "decline" of the MCU that leave me just shaking my head and thinking, "Are y'all sure it's not because they're replicating all the worst parts of the comics that made me give up on superhero stuff back in gradeschool?" Well, probably a lot of personal bias there, but I honestly I don't care enough about the MCU to think about it any more deeply that that. Anyway, I will say that as much as I agree that the "X meets Y" template is, well... is "creatively bankrupt" too harsh of a term? Because it *is* that, even if it feels kind of mean to say. But the thing about directives and restrictions is that they don't -- and never have -- inhibit creativity. In my experience, it's quite the opposite. It is just as possible for a writer to churn out a brilliant script from a uninspired premise as it is possible to churn out a godawful script from an ingenious premise. And chafing against imposed limitations can, itself, be inspirational. Which is all a terribly long-winded way to say that I will never forget -- nor will I ever cease to remind all of you -- that the basic description for 'Killing Time' sounded terrible. I very much considered skipping that boxset entirely, despite loving pretty much everything Derek Jacobi has ever done. But I gave it a chance, and what do you think happened? Yup. One of the best sets of stories Big Finish has ever produced, with what is -- by far -- one of the most phenomenal, powerhouse performances in the entire history of Doctor Who. Books, covers, judgment, etc., etc. Never forget.
|
|
|
Post by bonehead on Jan 4, 2024 4:23:28 GMT
I still don't think the magic has gone when I notice how excited I am by the announcement of certain new releases, but this thread has proven to be very interesting reading. Does anyone have a fondness for the old classic Universal monster films from the '30s and '40s? I was watching 'Frankenstein Meets the Wolfman' earlier from 1942. Universal felt that, by bringing the monsters all together in a big mash-up, they'd be more popular than ever - surely! By 1945, their series of such films was over. Too many gimmicks and no new ideas I hope Big Finish doesn't go too far down a similar path. Yes, most definitely! Because...
'Even a man who's a big 'Who' fan and hears BF each night, may watch movies old when the air is cold and the autumn moon is bright!'
As the gypsy seer doesn't quite say in 'The Wolfman', but it was in that spirit!
I'm sure the pure horror film fans of the day said 'This is the END!' when the studio started to release 'Abbott and Costello Meet...' but the audiences loved them! And a few more years were added to the franchise before that twist also ran its course. The moral might be, BF can gain some extra interest and sales with 'X meets Y' releases but if they overdo it, the sales will diminish. Ultimately, it's the scripts that count; by now I guess we all take the great performances and production standards for granted; we shouldn't, but I do anyway! So, my favourite BF of 2023 was the 3DAs: Intelligence for War. I knew the cast would be excellent and they were; it was Eddie Robson's brilliant Season 7 script that took it to the very top for me.
Old Maleva, the gypsy 'crone' had a lot to answer for (rumour has it the actress was only six years older than her screen son Bela Lugosi, but that's for another day!). You've got me thinking now, what was my favourite BF release from 2023? And how does it compare to top releases from years gone by? It's a good question, but 'Intelligence for War' is definitely up there. I could do with Jon Pertwee's thinkin' 'ead right now ...
|
|
|
Post by muckypup on Jan 8, 2024 6:22:30 GMT
Sorry, but I dont see why discussing issues related to the systematic intersectional oppression of women is in anyway a problem. It is the role of art and drama to raise difficult questions. If males in the audience (and let's face few of these complaints will be coming from women) can't handle it, then that's not the fault of the drama. Because this is paid for entertainment, tell the stories that people want to buy. Look at “ata girl”, praise for the female story but poor sales…… no one is saying it’s a bad thing, just maybe it’s time to dial it back down again and tell a different view point. and the arts role to raise blar blar blar …is just Bo????ks, often used to justify poor reception to something, it’s primary reason is to make money! any thing else is just spin or us fans talking crap like we do because we love it.
|
|
dorney
Big Finish Creative Team
Likes: 3,079
|
Post by dorney on Jan 9, 2024 0:42:28 GMT
Sorry, but I dont see why discussing issues related to the systematic intersectional oppression of women is in anyway a problem. It is the role of art and drama to raise difficult questions. If males in the audience (and let's face few of these complaints will be coming from women) can't handle it, then that's not the fault of the drama. Because this is paid for entertainment, tell the stories that people want to buy. Look at “ata girl”, praise for the female story but poor sales…… no one is saying it’s a bad thing, just maybe it’s time to dial it back down again and tell a different view point. and the arts role to raise blar blar blar …is just Bo????ks, often used to justify poor reception to something, it’s primary reason is to make money! any thing else is just spin or us fans talking crap like we do because we love it. ATA Girl wouldn’t have got a sequel if it had bad sales.
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Jan 9, 2024 1:44:52 GMT
Because this is paid for entertainment, tell the stories that people want to buy. Look at “ata girl”, praise for the female story but poor sales…… no one is saying it’s a bad thing, just maybe it’s time to dial it back down again and tell a different view point. and the arts role to raise blar blar blar …is just Bo????ks, often used to justify poor reception to something, it’s primary reason is to make money! any thing else is just spin or us fans talking crap like we do because we love it. ATA Girl wouldn’t have got a sequel if it had bad sales. I loved ATA Girl.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Jan 9, 2024 1:46:14 GMT
Sorry, but I dont see why discussing issues related to the systematic intersectional oppression of women is in anyway a problem. It is the role of art and drama to raise difficult questions. If males in the audience (and let's face few of these complaints will be coming from women) can't handle it, then that's not the fault of the drama. Because this is paid for entertainment, tell the stories that people want to buy. Look at “ata girl”, praise for the female story but poor sales…… no one is saying it’s a bad thing, just maybe it’s time to dial it back down again and tell a different view point. and the arts role to raise blar blar blar …is just Bo????ks, often used to justify poor reception to something, it’s primary reason is to make money! any thing else is just spin or us fans talking crap like we do because we love it. 'ATA Girl' was of course just one of a series of 'BF Originals'. The contrast between the different titles, themes and characters in that range was, to put it mildly, marked!
'ATA Girl' and 'Cicero' were my two favourites and had zero similarities, except they were both very high quality drama.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Jan 9, 2024 1:48:53 GMT
ATA Girl wouldn’t have got a sequel if it had bad sales. I loved ATA Girl. Same. I wish we'd had a full second series. (I even went so far as to post four suggested story themes! As a fan does. )
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Jan 9, 2024 1:50:54 GMT
I liked ATA Girl and Cicero, too. Shilling and Sixpence, too.
I also really enjoyed Jeremiah Bourne in Time, but apparently that one wasn't well received enough to get a sequel.
|
|
|
Post by number13 on Jan 9, 2024 1:55:11 GMT
I liked ATA Girl and Cicero, too. Shilling and Sixpence, too. I also really enjoyed Jeremiah Bourne in Time, but apparently that one wasn't well received enough to get a sequel. As I'm an M.R.James fan, you won't be surprised to know I also enjoyed (if that's the right word ) a shiver or two at Guy Adams' 'Blind Terror: The Gods of Frost'.
|
|
|
Post by Ela on Jan 9, 2024 2:04:27 GMT
I liked ATA Girl and Cicero, too. Shilling and Sixpence, too. I also really enjoyed Jeremiah Bourne in Time, but apparently that one wasn't well received enough to get a sequel. As I'm an M.R.James fan, you won't be surprised to know I also enjoyed (if that's the right word ) a shiver or two at Guy Adams' 'Blind Terror: The Gods of Frost'. I enjoyed Blind Terror too - more than I expected, since I'm not a fan of scary stories - but I don't have a good recollection of it anymore.
|
|
lidar2
Castellan
You know, now that you mention it, I actually do rather like Attack of the Cybermen ...
Likes: 5,817
Member is Online
|
Post by lidar2 on Jan 9, 2024 8:57:27 GMT
Re the point I made above about self-indulgence, I was listening to the Extras from War Master 10.3 where Scott Handcock talks about his thinking for the story and it seems to be a case of "I like both actors and wanted us all to work together so we did this story". Another example of self-indulgence driving creative decisions.
Having said that, Sublime Porte was an excellent story and was an example of the self-indulgence working very well resulting in a top-notch story. But nevertheless the initial impetus behind it appears to have been self-indulgence and more often than not such self-indulgence on BF's part doesn't turn out as well as Sublime Porte did.
|
|