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Post by Audio Watchdog on Dec 26, 2023 20:03:23 GMT
Not sure how Ncuti couldn't convince anyone he wasn't the Doctor - to me, he's hit the ground running, probably the best since Chris (David, Matt, Peter and Jodie all had a bit of a warm up before they fully clicked and aced it), and twice no less. He's magnetic, a leading man in every sense. In fact, I'd say he's a great synthesis of the last five - Chris' confidence, Peter's gravity, David's humour, Matt's young/old quality and Jodie's friendliness and approachibility. You honestly feel like The Eleventh Hour was a warm-up? For me that remains the modern era introduction episode. I think Ncuti comes in a close second but not nearly with the swagger of Matt Smith. Anyway, I ended up enjoying this quite a bit more than I anticipated. I feel like if you take the special & this as kind of a whole, RTD is clearly a better writer for the show then during his first go round. I also think he is very much a Doctor Who showrunner informed by who came after him. To my eyes there was more than a little Moffat influence to the writing. RTD is certainly throwing a bunch of balls in the air and I have to wonder if we get to all of the subplots & mysteries in Season One or if this is mapped out for two seasons. Ncuti Gatwa IS the Doctor. He & Ruby make an appealing duo. I love, love, love Ruby’s family. I have to admit to having a perverse amount of fun watching a Goblin song about feasting on a new born on Disney +. Anyway, nice to see Doctor Who in such good health. Bring on May.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 26, 2023 20:35:46 GMT
Yep. Christmas specials are often frothier eps, and RTD ones especially. He's very much a child of the variety show Christmas ep. He does the modern equivalent of Angela Rippon on Morcambe & Wise. I have to laugh at some places saying this "silly" ep was even more proof Disney run the show....when a subplot relied on a TV presenter absolutely NO-ONE outside the UK knows. Would you not agree though, that Doctor Who predominantly contains the look and feel of a Disney production now? Because that's the thing above anything else that I find hard to get past. Speaking for myself, I don't feel so. The goofy adventure/heightened musical style and tone isn't tied to Disney alone - I'd argue the reference points for this episode are way more Amblin and 80s Lucasfilm (way before even the Prequels), and RTD's love of camp than MCU/Kennedy-era SW Disney. Direction wise, it's pretty consistent with what we got under Chibb (with it being Tonderai, no shock).
If you feel it's more than you like, that's completely fair. I'd just say it's more RTD's predilection for bombast doing that, rather than Disney influence.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 26, 2023 20:38:22 GMT
Not sure how Ncuti couldn't convince anyone he wasn't the Doctor - to me, he's hit the ground running, probably the best since Chris (David, Matt, Peter and Jodie all had a bit of a warm up before they fully clicked and aced it), and twice no less. He's magnetic, a leading man in every sense. In fact, I'd say he's a great synthesis of the last five - Chris' confidence, Peter's gravity, David's humour, Matt's young/old quality and Jodie's friendliness and approachibility. You honestly feel like The Eleventh Hour was a warm-up? For me that remains the modern era introduction episode. I think Ncuti comes in a close second but not nearly with the swagger of Matt Smith. Anyway, I ended up enjoying this quite a bit more than I anticipated. I feel like if you take the special & this as kind of a whole, RTD is clearly a better writer for the show then during his first go round. I also think he is very much a Doctor Who showrunner informed by who came after him. To my eyes there was more than a little Moffat influence to the writing. RTD is certainly throwing a bunch of balls in the air and I have to wonder if we get to all of the subplots & mysteries in Season One or if this is mapped out for two seasons. Ncuti Gatwa IS the Doctor. He & Ruby make an appealing duo. I love, love, love Ruby’s family. I have to admit to having a perverse amount of fun watching a Goblin song about feasting on a new born on Disney +. Anyway, nice to see Doctor Who in such good health. Bring on May. Oh I don't think Church is better than Eleventh Hour (it's a much lighter affair, for sure), just that Ncuti clicked with me faster. Then again, he had an advantadge Matt (who was great in EH, to be clear) didn't in terms of having a larger chunk of the prior story.
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Post by bonehead on Dec 26, 2023 20:46:26 GMT
Would you not agree though, that Doctor Who predominantly contains the look and feel of a Disney production now? Because that's the thing above anything else that I find hard to get past. Speaking for myself, I don't feel so. The goofy adventure/heightened musical style and tone isn't tied to Disney alone - I'd argue the reference points for this episode are way more Amblin and 80s Lucasfilm (way before even the Prequels), and RTD's love of camp than MCU/Kennedy-era SW Disney. Direction wise, it's pretty consistent with what we got under Chibb (with it being Tonderai, no shock).
If you feel it's more than you like, that's completely fair. I'd just say it's more RTD's predilection for bombast doing that, rather than Disney influence.
I promised I wouldn't post to complain about the new stuff, didn't I? So much for that! I'll keep it brief though - for a good few years, Doctor Who was just about the only thing I watched on television. I was almost paying my license just for that. The reason? Because Doctor Who was different. Now, under this new/old regime it's not that different anymore. The look, the budget (yes, I'm complaining about the big budget) and definitely the all-encompassing music, just doesn't connect with me as Doctor Who. I don't know much about Lucasfilm and Amblin companies you mention, but Disney I am familiar with (nephews were big fans when small), and it's that 'vibe' I get when watching these new episodes.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 26, 2023 20:55:30 GMT
Speaking for myself, I don't feel so. The goofy adventure/heightened musical style and tone isn't tied to Disney alone - I'd argue the reference points for this episode are way more Amblin and 80s Lucasfilm (way before even the Prequels), and RTD's love of camp than MCU/Kennedy-era SW Disney. Direction wise, it's pretty consistent with what we got under Chibb (with it being Tonderai, no shock).
If you feel it's more than you like, that's completely fair. I'd just say it's more RTD's predilection for bombast doing that, rather than Disney influence.
I promised I wouldn't post to complain about the new stuff, didn't I? So much for that! I'll keep it brief though - for a good few years, Doctor Who was just about the only thing I watched on television. I was almost paying my license just for that. The reason? Because Doctor Who was different. Now, under this new/old regime it's not that different anymore. The look, the budget (yes, I'm complaining about the big budget) and definitely the all-encompassing music, just doesn't connect with me as Doctor Who. I don't know much about Lucasfilm and Amblin companies you mention, but Disney I am familiar with (nephews were big fans when small), and it's that 'vibe' I get when watching these new episodes. Amblin is Spielberg's company, though it's often used as a shorthand for a particular style of 80s fantasy/kids movies (even ones he didn't actually make, but fit the style). Goonies, Explorers, Young Sherlock Holmes, ET, the BTTF trilogy, Gremlins, The Sandlot, Land Before Time, American Tail, Labyrinth, Monster Squad, Harry and the Hendersons, Young Indiana Jones, Amazing Stories etc.
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Post by ollychops on Dec 26, 2023 21:50:13 GMT
Where to start. This was full of the usual RTD tropes & felt like a first draft. Full of half formed ideas rather than a cohesive plot. The goblins were not a real threat, nor were they creepy. & why were they there? Something to do with luck & coincidence? It all felt like a handful of ideas cobbled together. Many of the scenes felt like something out of an ITV sitcom. For a writer who is, despite his flaws, good at character stuff they all felt unconvincing & clichéd. More like caricatures than real people. It seemed like we were just supposed to accept this new duo as being cool & likeable without any good writing to back that up. So I am yet to be convinced by this duo, a shame as I had high hopes for Ncuti but he didn't convince as Doctor Who here nor did Millie as the companion. A very underwritten character. The plot was so inconsequential & full of holes - the Doctor goes back in time, kills all the goblins, they all magically disintegrate & the mysterious mother is still slowly walking away? Did she not see any of this? & Murray Gold please can you be quiet, even just for 5 minutes! My god this whole episode was coated in annoying OTT score, as subtle as a brick to the face. It's not a silent movie Gold! Let the acting & dialogue breath! Christmas episodes are often more lightweight & frenetic than usual but compared to The Woman Who Fell To Earth or The Eleventh Hour this was a really poor intro episode for a new Doctor & companion. I don't care about them. The trailer for the new series looked interesting so hopefully things will improve. But on the evidence of this RTD2 era is as bad as I feared. I can't say I disagree with any of that. I remember the final shot of the woman walking away and was thinking "how slowly does this woman walk FFS". It really took me out of the story. So for me, "Oh well, let's give it the benefit of the doubt until Ncuti's first story" has turned into "oh well, let's give it the benefit of the doubt until the new series starts". I'm not sure how much more slack I can keep cutting this new incarnation of the show This is how I feel currently... I wasn't very excited for where RTD2 was going after The Giggle, but then the clip of The Goblin Song won me over, but then watching TCoRR has me back to how I felt during the Chibnall era where I'm going into the next episode thinking, "Hopefully this is better than the last episode..."
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Dec 26, 2023 21:50:31 GMT
They’re all Ruby. Mrs Flood is Ruby. The woman who dropped the baby off is Ruby. Ruby’s mum is Ruby. Ruby’s dad is Ruby. EVERYONE is Ruby. The Timeless Child is Ruby, so even the Doctor is Ruby. Ruby will travel back in time, a Loong way, meet a bloke named Adam and WHAM …. we’re all Ruby.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 26, 2023 22:07:13 GMT
Where to start. This was full of the usual RTD tropes & felt like a first draft. Full of half formed ideas rather than a cohesive plot. The goblins were not a real threat, nor were they creepy. & why were they there? Something to do with luck & coincidence? It all felt like a handful of ideas cobbled together. Many of the scenes felt like something out of an ITV sitcom. For a writer who is, despite his flaws, good at character stuff they all felt unconvincing & clichéd. More like caricatures than real people. It seemed like we were just supposed to accept this new duo as being cool & likeable without any good writing to back that up. So I am yet to be convinced by this duo, a shame as I had high hopes for Ncuti but he didn't convince as Doctor Who here nor did Millie as the companion. A very underwritten character. The plot was so inconsequential & full of holes - the Doctor goes back in time, kills all the goblins, they all magically disintegrate & the mysterious mother is still slowly walking away? Did she not see any of this? & Murray Gold please can you be quiet, even just for 5 minutes! My god this whole episode was coated in annoying OTT score, as subtle as a brick to the face. It's not a silent movie Gold! Let the acting & dialogue breath! Christmas episodes are often more lightweight & frenetic than usual but compared to The Woman Who Fell To Earth or The Eleventh Hour this was a really poor intro episode for a new Doctor & companion. I don't care about them. The trailer for the new series looked interesting so hopefully things will improve. But on the evidence of this RTD2 era is as bad as I feared. I can't say I disagree with any of that. I remember the final shot of the woman walking away and was thinking "how slowly does this woman walk FFS". It really took me out of the story. So for me, "Oh well, let's give it the benefit of the doubt until Ncuti's first story" has turned into "oh well, let's give it the benefit of the doubt until the new series starts". I'm not sure how much more slack I can keep cutting this new incarnation of the show So true. Another chance for this new era to win me over in May.
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Post by timleschild on Dec 26, 2023 22:08:16 GMT
I can't say I disagree with any of that. I remember the final shot of the woman walking away and was thinking "how slowly does this woman walk FFS". It really took me out of the story. So for me, "Oh well, let's give it the benefit of the doubt until Ncuti's first story" has turned into "oh well, let's give it the benefit of the doubt until the new series starts". I'm not sure how much more slack I can keep cutting this new incarnation of the show This is how I feel currently... I wasn't very excited for where RTD2 was going after The Giggle, but then the clip of The Goblin Song won me over, but then watching TCoRR has me back to how I felt during the Chibnall era where I'm going into the next episode thinking, "Hopefully this is better than the last episode..." For me the Chibnall era was leagues above this dross but I understand that feeling.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 26, 2023 22:13:54 GMT
In related news, and you want something more grounded, RTD's biodrama Nolly is airing on ITV1 from tomorrow, if you didn't stream it yet.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2023 23:08:09 GMT
Yep. Christmas specials are often frothier eps, and RTD ones especially. He's very much a child of the variety show Christmas ep. He does the modern equivalent of Angela Rippon on Morcambe & Wise. I have to laugh at some places saying this "silly" ep was even more proof Disney run the show....when a subplot relied on a TV presenter absolutely NO-ONE outside the UK knows. Would you not agree though, that Doctor Who predominantly contains the look and feel of a Disney production now? Because that's the thing above anything else that I find hard to get past. Only in as much as both make high end genre TV and that has a certain digital look. The same can be said of the CW Arrowverse or Warner productions, Netflix or Apple shows. There absolutely is a somewhat homogenous look to modern telly but these are the waters Who swims in. The alternative is not have the budget, look cheap and risk the show's future - as was happening according to Chibnall before a financial partner was found. I'm not sure what was specifically Disney to anyone - it was a pastiche of Labyrinth with a bit of Back To The Future (and Who did Time Travel shenanigans first, there!) but Disney ain't demand ing Davina McCall gets a feature role, so no-one outside the UK gets the joke. This was just a silly RTD ep with cash. For better or worse. I honestly don't see anything in it that doesn't seem on brand for HIM, not Disney. Even singing Goblins? Warners adaptation of The Hobbit, not Disney.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2023 23:09:00 GMT
In related news, and you want something more grounded, RTD's biodrama Nolly is airing on ITV1 from tomorrow, if you didn't stream it yet. Fab telly with a wonderful leading turn. Noelle would be so happy to know she still had that love.
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Post by mark687 on Dec 27, 2023 0:49:20 GMT
Where to start. This was full of the usual RTD tropes & felt like a first draft. Full of half formed ideas rather than a cohesive plot. The goblins were not a real threat, nor were they creepy. & why were they there? Something to do with luck & coincidence? It all felt like a handful of ideas cobbled together. Many of the scenes felt like something out of an ITV sitcom. For a writer who is, despite his flaws, good at character stuff they all felt unconvincing & clichéd. More like caricatures than real people. It seemed like we were just supposed to accept this new duo as being cool & likeable without any good writing to back that up. So I am yet to be convinced by this duo, a shame as I had high hopes for Ncuti but he didn't convince as Doctor Who here nor did Millie as the companion. A very underwritten character. The plot was so inconsequential & full of holes - the Doctor goes back in time, kills all the goblins, they all magically disintegrate & the mysterious mother is still slowly walking away? Did she not see any of this? & Murray Gold please can you be quiet, even just for 5 minutes! My god this whole episode was coated in annoying OTT score, as subtle as a brick to the face. It's not a silent movie Gold! Let the acting & dialogue breath! Christmas episodes are often more lightweight & frenetic than usual but compared to The Woman Who Fell To Earth or The Eleventh Hour this was a really poor intro episode for a new Doctor & companion. I don't care about them. The trailer for the new series looked interesting so hopefully things will improve. But on the evidence of this RTD2 era is as bad as I feared. I completely disagree also interesting example in my mind a case can be made that Church is a better Woman that Fell with a much more engaging Doctor and more interesting Conundrum. Regards mark687
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Post by number13 on Dec 27, 2023 1:18:26 GMT
Not sure how Ncuti couldn't convince anyone he wasn't the Doctor - to me, he's hit the ground running, probably the best since Chris (David, Matt, Peter and Jodie all had a bit of a warm up before they fully clicked and aced it), and twice no less. He's magnetic, a leading man in every sense. In fact, I'd say he's a great synthesis of the last four - Chris' confidence, Peter's gravity, David's humour, Matt's young/old quality and Jodie's friendliness and approachibility. You spelt mavity wrong. Newton has a lot to answer for. For example, I find 'Frontios' hard to take seriously with a villain called Mavis.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 4:49:24 GMT
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Post by timleschild on Dec 27, 2023 9:03:50 GMT
Where to start. This was full of the usual RTD tropes & felt like a first draft. Full of half formed ideas rather than a cohesive plot. The goblins were not a real threat, nor were they creepy. & why were they there? Something to do with luck & coincidence? It all felt like a handful of ideas cobbled together. Many of the scenes felt like something out of an ITV sitcom. For a writer who is, despite his flaws, good at character stuff they all felt unconvincing & clichéd. More like caricatures than real people. It seemed like we were just supposed to accept this new duo as being cool & likeable without any good writing to back that up. So I am yet to be convinced by this duo, a shame as I had high hopes for Ncuti but he didn't convince as Doctor Who here nor did Millie as the companion. A very underwritten character. The plot was so inconsequential & full of holes - the Doctor goes back in time, kills all the goblins, they all magically disintegrate & the mysterious mother is still slowly walking away? Did she not see any of this? & Murray Gold please can you be quiet, even just for 5 minutes! My god this whole episode was coated in annoying OTT score, as subtle as a brick to the face. It's not a silent movie Gold! Let the acting & dialogue breath! Christmas episodes are often more lightweight & frenetic than usual but compared to The Woman Who Fell To Earth or The Eleventh Hour this was a really poor intro episode for a new Doctor & companion. I don't care about them. The trailer for the new series looked interesting so hopefully things will improve. But on the evidence of this RTD2 era is as bad as I feared. I completely disagree also interesting example in my mind a case can be made that Church is a better Woman that Fell with a much more engaging Doctor and more interesting Conundrum. Regards mark687 Completely disagree. Ncuti wasn't engaging at all as Doctor Who (not something I expected). No real depth to Ruby, being adopted seemed to be her only characteristic. It was all lots of running around in scenes with little narrative cohesion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 9:23:56 GMT
I'm not sure what was specifically Disney to anyone - it was a pastiche of Labyrinth with a bit of Back To The Future (and Who did Time Travel shenanigans first, there!) but Disney ain't demand ing Davina McCall gets a feature role, so no-one outside the UK gets the joke. This was just a silly RTD ep with cash. For better or worse. I honestly don't see anything in it that doesn't seem on brand for HIM, not Disney. Even singing Goblins? Warners adaptation of The Hobbit, not Disney. I don't know what was specifically Disney about The Church on Ruby Road either but it certainly was specifically RTD! The difference between the RTD 'Christmas specials' and Chris Chibnall's [New Years Day] 'specials' is night and day. I'm not knocking Chibnall's holiday episodes, as three out of four of them featured Daleks and tried to be different, but RTD just does an OTT Christmas romp like nobody else. The Church on Ruby Road looked a bit more polished than his last ones but the style is undoubtedly the same.
Now that everyone is aware of the Disney cash injection anything perceived as being bad or sub par in Doctor Who is probably going to get blamed on Disney. Personally, I liked the way the latest episodes have looked, and it's better for Doctor Who to have the cash and look the part than not have it and probably end up getting cancelled as it couldn't compete with modern TV shows!
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Post by timleschild on Dec 27, 2023 9:27:43 GMT
I'm not sure what was specifically Disney to anyone - it was a pastiche of Labyrinth with a bit of Back To The Future (and Who did Time Travel shenanigans first, there!) but Disney ain't demand ing Davina McCall gets a feature role, so no-one outside the UK gets the joke. This was just a silly RTD ep with cash. For better or worse. I honestly don't see anything in it that doesn't seem on brand for HIM, not Disney. Even singing Goblins? Warners adaptation of The Hobbit, not Disney. I don't know what was specifically Disney about The Church on Ruby Road either but it certainly was specifically RTD! The difference between the RTD 'Christmas specials' and Chris Chibnall's [New Years Day] 'specials' is night and day. I'm not knocking Chibnall's holiday episodes, as three out of four of them featured Daleks and tried to be different, but RTD just does an OTT Christmas romp like nobody else. The Church on Ruby Road looked a bit more polished than his last ones but the style is undoubtedly the same.
Now that everyone is aware of the Disney cash injection anything perceived as being bad or sub par in Doctor Who is probably going to get blamed on Disney. Personally, I liked the way the latest episodes have looked, and it's better for Doctor Who to have the cash and look the part than not have it and probably end up getting cancelled as it couldn't compete with modern TV shows!
Yep,Disney will be blamed when the real culprit is RTD.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2023 9:46:04 GMT
I completely disagree also interesting example in my mind a case can be made that Church is a better Woman that Fell with a much more engaging Doctor and more interesting Conundrum. Regards mark687 Completely disagree. Ncuti wasn't engaging at all as Doctor Who (not something I expected). No real depth to Ruby, being adopted seemed to be her only characteristic. It was all lots of running around in scenes with little narrative cohesion. I'd certainly struggle to see describe either of their characters at this stage. Ncuti did a lot of running around and posing, but I'm not sure I understand who his Doctor is yet. If I had to pin it down, I'd say he most resembles 13, with quite a lot of mumbled exposition about how unusual/dangerous the situation is. And Ruby felt very bland and generic; not a patch on Rose (new Rose). Yasmin was amazing, Millie is just kind of there. Very competent acting, but nothing to show for it yet.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Dec 27, 2023 10:10:28 GMT
Completely disagree. Ncuti wasn't engaging at all as Doctor Who (not something I expected). No real depth to Ruby, being adopted seemed to be her only characteristic. It was all lots of running around in scenes with little narrative cohesion. I'd certainly struggle to see describe either of their characters at this stage. Ncuti did a lot of running around and posing, but I'm not sure I understand who his Doctor is yet. If I had to pin it down, I'd say he most resembles 13, with quite a lot of mumbled exposition about how unusual/dangerous the situation is. And Ruby felt very bland and generic; not a patch on Rose (new Rose). Yasmin was amazing, Millie is just kind of there. Very competent acting, but nothing to show for it yet. Obviously politely agree to disagree, respect different opinions etc etc, but I just can't see how 15 is vague or unclear as a character. Even with the caveat of first eps can only do so much, I've got a good sense of who this Doctor is and how he views the world.
As for Ruby, I concede there is less there but I like what I've seen so far and I want to see where this TARDIS team go next, so I'm satisfied.
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