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Post by fitzoliverj on Jun 15, 2024 8:37:46 GMT
Oh, does this mean that the blurb for "Tales of the TARDIS" (that the Doctor and Ruby recap the series so far) might be untrue, and we are actually going to get "Pyramids of Mars" after all? Could we see... perhaps.. Tom Baker and Tommy Knight, maybe Sinead Michael?
but why on Earth would Sutekh want to masquerade on Earth as an altruistic tech mogul ( literally the least realistic thing Doctor Who has ever done)? Why would Sutekh send Susan (or a version of Sutekh, himself, how thinks he's Susan) into a bunch of random time periods just to wink and nod at the audience? Why would Sutekh try to mislead the Doctor into thinking Susan Triad was actually their granddaughter? And that's something I really, greatly, very much did not like -- the granddaughter scene. Do we seriously have to retcon Susan's relationship to the Doctor to be some sort of pointlessly convoluted, timey-wimey, River Song nonsense? My guess is that Sutekh is handing out the gift of death with the free software as a delivery system, and the whole Susan thing was a coincidence?. He seemed amused that the Doctor had thought Susan Triad 'was family'. As for the 'explanation' of Susan; well, it's so vague and wibbly I think we can ignore it. And to be fair, the Doctor's past is now so up for grabs he can't be sure what memories are true anyway.
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Post by masterdoctor on Jun 15, 2024 8:48:45 GMT
It was a lot of fun, but I’ll be honest that it gets by on good vibes through a lot of the run time. I figured Sutekh pretty early on, and a lot of the episode is a lot of fun babble. As for how things get resolved my theories are as follows
- Ruby is the hooded woman who dropped herself off at Ruby Road. She points at The Doctor because he has turned out to be her father. The exchange between Kate and The Doctor about Susan and not having children yet sealed this for me. - Mrs. Flood is a human form of the Tardis either sent by the Doctor or on her own to watch over Ruby and her family from the gods. - Sutekh has been living on the Tardis since Wild Blue Yonder when it was vulnerable.
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Post by sherlock on Jun 15, 2024 8:53:45 GMT
but why on Earth would Sutekh want to masquerade on Earth as an altruistic tech mogul ( literally the least realistic thing Doctor Who has ever done)? Why would Sutekh send Susan (or a version of Sutekh, himself, how thinks he's Susan) into a bunch of random time periods just to wink and nod at the audience? Why would Sutekh try to mislead the Doctor into thinking Susan Triad was actually their granddaughter? And that's something I really, greatly, very much did not like -- the granddaughter scene. Do we seriously have to retcon Susan's relationship to the Doctor to be some sort of pointlessly convoluted, timey-wimey, River Song nonsense? My guess is that Sutekh is handing out the gift of death with the free software as a delivery system, and the whole Susan thing was a coincidence?. He seemed amused that the Doctor had thought Susan Triad 'was family'. As for the 'explanation' of Susan; well, it's so vague and wibbly I think we can ignore it. And to be fair, the Doctor's past is now so up for grabs he can't be sure what memories are true anyway.
Personally I saw the whole of Susan and the launch as a big red herring to lure in the Doctor. An obvious TARDIS anagram plus a big event which will change the world. Not subtle, but Sutekh was hardly the god of subtlety.
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Post by timleschild on Jun 15, 2024 9:14:28 GMT
How, though, are some gonna take The Doctor saying he's never had children? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/6343532/images/ZBDvOFPmQgNwxFXLpuoD.gif) Yet. Not yet.
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Post by ollychops on Jun 15, 2024 9:25:27 GMT
Also I’m calling it that Ruby was the one dropping herself off, and she was pointing at the Doctor to help warn them in this episode.
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Post by timleschild on Jun 15, 2024 11:48:23 GMT
Well that was OK. Need the 2nd part to properly judge as it was a lot of set up for the return of Sutekh, who looked like a kangaroo! & instead of Clara as a 'mystery box' character we have 3 this series! Ruby, Susan Triad & Mrs Flood. Are all 3 women connected? More wordplay from RTD with triad? Not sure why Susan was popping up all over the place, if Sutekh did it why? Was it a warning from another character, like Bad Wolf? Ruby's mum? If it turns out to be an older Ruby seems too similar to 73 Yards or maybe it will tie in to that? Mrs Flood is SHE Susan? God knows but it all feels like too much to resolve next week, & honestly I'm not that interested. Ruby will probably end up being Doctor Who's daughter & the new companion next season, Varada Sethu, will be Susan.
Also with Rose pointlessly added to the episode made me wonder where 14 is? Sat on his arse while all this was going on? Not helping at all. & if Susan Triad was a known public figure in the current day why hadn't Ruby recognised her before? & can UNIT please keep a scientific advisor for a bit longer this time?
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Kestrel
Chancellery Guard
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Post by Kestrel on Jun 15, 2024 13:09:52 GMT
My guess is that Sutekh is handing out the gift of death with the free software as a delivery system, and the whole Susan thing was a coincidence?. He seemed amused that the Doctor had thought Susan Triad 'was family'. As for the 'explanation' of Susan; well, it's so vague and wibbly I think we can ignore it. And to be fair, the Doctor's past is now so up for grabs he can't be sure what memories are true anyway.
Personally I saw the whole of Susan and the launch as a big red herring to lure in the Doctor. An obvious TARDIS anagram plus a big event which will change the world. Not subtle, but Sutekh was hardly the god of subtlety. That's not really a satisfying explanation. Or any explanation, really. If Sutekh wanted to trap the Doctor, what did he actually accomplish? Aside from arranging a meeting with the Doctor? A trap would be something like, I don't know... turning yourself invisible and attaching yourself to the TARDIS so that you can affect where it goes and when. You can kill the Doctor indirectly by sending the TARDIS into dangerous situations, or indirectly by damaging/destroying the TARDIS while the Doctor's inside. That would be a trap. With the knowledge we have now, none of Sutekh's actions really make sense or confer upon him any sort of advantage. They all just happen because the script demands that they play out that way. It's cheap, contrived drama (much like how the Doctor magically induces that Ruby's mother is somehow related to Susan Triad, and vice versa). And given RTD's track record, I really don't think we can count on the next episode to retroactively fix any of the issues at play here. I've stated before that RTD is typically pretty bad with "big" plots, which he tends to use for season finales, and he's sure going big here, but he does generally do really well with character-focused, emotional writing. So here's hoping he can somehow pull off a big turnaround next season... but without the heightened drama of, say, a Doctor or Companion leaving the show this time around... my expectations aren't exactly very high. .... As for the program being a genocide app, I suppose that makes a degree of sense, but that's ultimately just a variation of the same story we've seen far too many times in nuWho already -- and I'm not sure how much sense it makes in the (new) context of Sutekh as an actual, literal god of death. Surely he wouldn't need magic phone app to kill people? I dunno. We'll see. I certainly hope there's something a little more interesting at play in the finale than the Doctor trying to stop Sutekh from pressing a big "kill everyone button.
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Post by mark687 on Jun 15, 2024 13:39:58 GMT
Interesting point is they seem to implied both things regarding Ruby and Ruby Road, Ruby's not meant to be there but if she's not there the memory never gets Time Window reconstructed and Sutek never completes the link, plus there's hints she's a counter force of some kind. Also I think the Mrs Flood Cherry scene was far too early I was/am far more interested in seeing that play out.
Regards
mark687
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Post by 20fridge on Jun 15, 2024 17:35:45 GMT
I quite enjoyed this one. The Sukteh reveal means that we may have a full season without a Dalek or Cyberman in sight! Though, what really sold me on the episode was the time window sequence. That was the most tense I've felt while watching Doctor Who in a long time. I knew something was going to go horribly wrong, but not quite what or when. Jemma Redgrave played Kate Stewart's silent building objections to the Doctor pressing on and breaking the rules was excellent. Her silent condemnation of him after the death of her soldier was pitch perfect. Also, Mel was better used here than in all of the classic series. I can't wait to see how this one resolves!
It was fascinating watching this one with my wife, who is much more of a casual fan. She had never heard of Sukteh but she thought the reveal really worked.
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Post by ryan on Jun 15, 2024 17:48:00 GMT
Outstanding episode. Bringing Sutekh back is bringing some genuine jeopardy that the series has really been lacking. The suspense built and built.
This was the first time since the Christmas special that I felt like I was watching the Doctor. Ncuti Gatwa really brought subtlety and gravitas to the role. Just goes to show how good an actor he is when he's given decent scripts. When he plays the role with emotional guardedness and restraint, he really is first-rate and gives so more complexity in his performance.
Millie Gibson, of course, was excellent. I think her reactions to challenging events are some of the most naturalistic from a companion. I just hope this level of quality is maintained through the finale.
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Post by dasmaniac on Jun 15, 2024 18:02:15 GMT
It was a lot of fun, but I’ll be honest that it gets by on good vibes through a lot of the run time. I figured Sutekh pretty early on, and a lot of the episode is a lot of fun babble. As for how things get resolved my theories are as follows - Ruby is the hooded woman who dropped herself off at Ruby Road. She points at The Doctor because he has turned out to be her father. The exchange between Kate and The Doctor about Susan and not having children yet sealed this for me. - Mrs. Flood is a human form of the Tardis either sent by the Doctor or on her own to watch over Ruby and her family from the gods. - Sutekh has been living on the Tardis since Wild Blue Yonder when it was vulnerable. Given RTD's penchant for wordplay, she could be Sutekh's mother the goddess Nut, who is depicted in hieroglyphic form with a water pot.
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Post by ollychops on Jun 15, 2024 19:02:02 GMT
Rewatching it and my feelings are pretty much the same. Fantastic ending but the rest of it is average. I think I can put my finger on why it didn’t really work with me: a lot of weird, clunky exposition and a lot of rehashing of info that we already know (the Ruby Road stuff in particular). I know it’s set up but Russell has done it far better in the past.
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Post by sherlock on Jun 15, 2024 19:09:27 GMT
Rewatched as live with family. I actually appreciated more on rewatch; the Ruby Road scene landed much more for some reason. The Sutekh reveal is still very cool, but my dad did have to immediately ask me who Sutekh was (and there’s a non-zero chance he watched Pyramids of Mars back in day as he did watch some 70s Who). So I’m curious how well it landed among the not-we.
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Post by timleschild on Jun 15, 2024 19:34:41 GMT
Rewatching it and my feelings are pretty much the same. Fantastic ending but the rest of it is average. I think I can put my finger on why it didn’t really work with me: a lot of weird, clunky exposition and a lot of rehashing of info that we already know (the Ruby Road stuff in particular). I know it’s set up but Russell has done it far better in the past. That's been my opinion of the whole season.
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Post by charlesuirdhein on Jun 15, 2024 20:36:12 GMT
Hmm, Does the Doctor have children? No. Possibly because they're dead? Not yet? So he can have more maybe? Sounds a bit like "Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" to me, i.e. "I'm not in the mood of explaining my family to others so here's some timey wimey nonsense".
The Doctor helped Mel when she lost her family? When was this?
And I figured the Susan thing was never going to be THE Susan, since RTD IMO would sell that like hotcakes with "leaked" info on Carole Ann Ford's glorious return etc. That's not something you throw away.
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Jun 15, 2024 20:47:55 GMT
I'm excited to see how things conclude next week, but I am in the camp of feeling like this episodes was treading water until the reveal. I appreciated all the great acting, and the Time Window was a pretty good sequence, but I wasn't too invested in what was happening. There's something about them in-universe discussing the anagrams and the possibility of it being Susan that really made me disengage.
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Post by Alastair on Jun 15, 2024 21:50:40 GMT
The Doctor helped Mel when she lost her family? When was this? My interpretation: a reference to her unseen first encounter with the Doctor. Hmm, Does the Doctor have children? No. Possibly because they're dead? Not yet? So he can have more maybe? Sounds a bit like "Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" to me, i.e. "I'm not in the mood of explaining my family to others so here's some timey wimey nonsense". I like that whenever this Doctor has had to explain something of his past (such as his name, or what happened to his people, or why the chameleon circuit is broken), he tends to give an explanation slightly different to what came before. Which we can take as (a) a soft reboot, (b) a sign of history being abstracted by the Flux/Toymaker, and/or (c) Fifteen trying out a new angle in the moment to see what fits his new identity best. To me it seems a fitting extension of “Time Lords do things out of order”. With Gallifrey once again gone and buried in a murky past, they’re retroactively becoming a little weirder, as a time travelling society probably should. (I’m reminded of RTD’s various allusions to the Time War, which were more abstract and poetic than what we eventually got.) Maybe meeting your descendants before they’re conceived is pretty standard fare; just hard to explain to us linear folk. It’s also a nice inversion of the explanation the ‘90s books offered: that she’s a granddaughter from similarly distant and forgotten pre-Hartnell past.
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Post by timleschild on Jun 15, 2024 21:57:53 GMT
& also, when the Doctor says "It was the wrong anagram". Sutekh wasn't an anagram.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2024 22:34:26 GMT
& also, when the Doctor says "It was the wrong anagram". Sutekh wasn't an anagram. Somehow "It wasn't an anagram but a homophone" doesn't sound as catchy.
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Post by Alastair on Jun 15, 2024 23:06:00 GMT
Well now the Toymaker’s expanded dialogue in The Giggle novelisation makes more sense:
“I made a jigsaw out of your history, and also the dictionary definitions of selected word games. Do you like it?”
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