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Post by Ela on Jan 23, 2017 1:29:31 GMT
It's interesting, isn't it, how we view our political leaders in hindsight. It always amuses me a little when people start talking about a president's (or other political leader's) legacy when they're not long out of office. Everyone has an opinion, but the truth is that nobody knows how today's leaders will be viewed and judged 50 or 100 years from now.
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Post by glutamodo on Jan 23, 2017 3:58:52 GMT
"hindsight" yeah!
The "focus lens" of history can be bizarre - the old saying "history is written by the victors", while I think still applies a small amount, the "information age" now skews that somewhat. Now-a-days, it's the "commentary" associated with such retellings, but (and what a big "BUT" it is) a wider and more accurate assessment can be made just from the sheer volume of coverage, both by The Media, and Social Media and other sources!
Yes. This was true in generations past, but that meant combing through magazine and newspaper archives and personal diaries of people who lived through it. These days, most of that exists in cyberspace... if one is motivated and able to do the necessary digging, with an open mind in the gathering and only drawing conclusions AFTER looking at what was gathered.
I said it before... I didn't vote for Trump, and I often considered him "a <bleeping> clown" in most of the stages of the campaign... But while I did think that, I will not let that make me judge his performance as President until I see all the things he says and does during his time in office.
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Post by kimalysong on Jan 23, 2017 13:38:51 GMT
It's kind of weird to see Churchill and Thatcher compared. Not saying Churchill was perfect but from what I've seen views on him are generally positive unlike Thatcher. That's my point, the facts that he was a racist with little regard for non white, non English with his policies both in and out of war, a womaniser, his family & friends never endured any of the rationing or austerity he inflicted on the people, blackmailed the party into re-electing him as leader, suffered chronic illness which meant that for many years he was unfit of office and much much more it all just shows my point, if anyone of them came out during office would have been the end of him, but drip feed it 30 years later & no one is that outraged Churchill is mainly popular because of how he handled the situation during WWII. He will always be remembered for the good he did not the bad. It's how these things go. The thing is FDR and Eisenhower in my opinion did a lot of bad stuff too but they also will be remembered more for the positives. And I realize the flip side some are going to be more remembered for the bad they did. I guess it's all relative and depends on what was accomplished. |
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Post by muckypup on Jan 23, 2017 13:59:41 GMT
That's my point, the facts that he was a racist with little regard for non white, non English with his policies both in and out of war, a womaniser, his family & friends never endured any of the rationing or austerity he inflicted on the people, blackmailed the party into re-electing him as leader, suffered chronic illness which meant that for many years he was unfit of office and much much more it all just shows my point, if anyone of them came out during office would have been the end of him, but drip feed it 30 years later & no one is that outraged Churchill is mainly popular because of how he handled the situation during WWII. He will always be remembered for the good he did not the bad. It's how these things go. The thing is FDR and Eisenhower in my opinion did a lot of bad stuff too but they also will be remembered more for the positives. And I realize the flip side some are going to be more remembered for the bad they did. I guess it's all relative and depends on what was accomplished. He was not popular with the returning troops who were not bombards with the propaganda the people back home were, that's the reason he lost the election after the war. he is fondly remember because of the caricature create during the war not because he was good at his job. but enough about Churchill from me, I don't want to hijack this thread. |
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 23, 2017 18:21:03 GMT
In my lifetime, the presidents are remembered for all the bad and none of the good.
Nixon, do I need to elaborate
Fall down Ford
Billy Beer
Old Man Regan and his free trade agreement, what a bad idea
Bush 1, letting Saddam live
Clinton and Monica
Bush 2, war on terrorism
Obama, nothing will remain of his legacy
Trump, playing the system
Sure you can name some good things they did, but they are really remembered for their failures and looking like fools at times. Jimmy Carter was the best man overall to be president in my lifetime, and he has done much more good after his presidency while working for and promoting HUD, He had the best of intentions, and absolutely no way to get anything passed.
Regan had a 20 year plan, unfortunately not a single president after him, planned anything, thus we crashed hard in the mid 2000's
Bush 1 freed Kuwait, but lost when he promised no new taxes
Clinton well, to tell the truth, he played the sax, and the field, and that's about it.
Bush 2, got 9/11 dropped on him, and went to war against a rather invisible enemy.
Obama used his pen to get things ordered into law, many without congressional approval, thus easy for Trump to trump. His legacy will only be known as the first African American president, and sadly in 100 years, will be nothing but an afterthought.
Trump will war with the media, make fun of other rulers all over the world, and eliminate everything that Obama ever did.
He did impress me already though, by striking down the trade agreement with Asia, I was against it from the beginning. We need jobs in America, and have to stop buying junk made in China, Taiwan, and all those other countries.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 23, 2017 18:49:23 GMT
In my lifetime, the presidents are remembered for all the bad and none of the good. Nixon, do I need to elaborate Fall down Ford Billy Beer Old Man Regan and his free trade agreement, what a bad idea Bush 1, letting Saddam live Clinton and Monica Bush 2, war on terrorism Obama, nothing will remain of his legacy Trump, playing the system Sure you can name some good things they did, but they are really remembered for their failures and looking like fools at times. Jimmy Carter was the best man overall to be president in my lifetime, and he has done much more good after his presidency while working for and promoting HUD, He had the best of intentions, and absolutely no way to get anything passed. Regan had a 20 year plan, unfortunately not a single president after him, planned anything, thus we crashed hard in the mid 2000's Bush 1 freed Kuwait, but lost when he promised no new taxes Clinton well, to tell the truth, he played the sax, and the field, and that's about it. Bush 2, got 9/11 dropped on him, and went to war against a rather invisible enemy. Obama used his pen to get things ordered into law, many without congressional approval, thus easy for Trump to trump. His legacy will only be known as the first African American president, and sadly in 100 years, will be nothing but an afterthought. Trump will war with the media, make fun of other rulers all over the world, and eliminate everything that Obama ever did. He did impress me already though, by striking down the trade agreement with Asia, I was against it from the beginning. We need jobs in America, and have to stop buying junk made in China, Taiwan, and all those other countries. I think Obama will be remembered well, but it is still too early to tell. Despite his impeachment and his sex scandals, I think Clinton is still remembered well. I'm not a fan of Reagan, but the man is practically worshipped by a lot of the country. |
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 23, 2017 19:48:51 GMT
www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2017-01-23/donald-trump-reinstates-mexico-city-policy-banning-international-abortion-fundingMore good news from the Trump camp, it is a woman's body to do with as she pleases, but she aint using my money overseas anymore. I don't oppose abortion, I just don't want to pay for it, unless I caused it. As far as abortion at home goes, it's cheaper to pay for an abortion, than it is to pay for a child thru 18 plus years, still, I don't like having to pay for either. I've already paid for my 4 kids, and helping to pay for grandkids now, I sure don't see the federal government busting down my door to help with those bills.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 23, 2017 19:50:44 GMT
History is a funny thing. It is all Watergate but history shows that Nixon was a very effective President. Under Nixon we got the EPA, OSHA and the START I treaty. Hell if not for the Democrats in Congress wanting something even more liberal Nixon would have passed health care reform that was much more progressive than what Barack Obama eventually got through.
Carter was one who doesn't get a lot of credit but the Camp David Peace accords is one the most important diplomatic breakthroughs of the last century. And people forget that Carter was an ex-Navy guy and it was actually him who started the arms build-up that Reagan cranked into overdrive which of course helped advance the Soviet Union. It is also often forgot that it was Carter who put Paul Volcker in charge of the Fed and if you know anything about the Reagan era you know Paul Volcker was a huge factor in the recovery under Reagan. And as an ex-President Carter is second to none. If anyone has the time they should read up on Carter's time in the Navy. If not for the botched rescue attempt of the hostages he probably would have won re-election.
I still sit and am shocked that George HW BUsh wasn't re-elected. I think it was less breaking the no new taxes pledge, which we know ended up being the catalyst for the economic recovery which happened under Bill Clinton, than it was that image of Bush not knowing what the price scanner at a grocery store during a campaign stop.
The interesting thing about Obama, besides him leaving office with 1 60% approval rating, is his was the first scandal free administration we have seen since, what, LBJ? Besides that I do think history will look upon warmly. His greatest misstep remains Syria. I admire not wanting to send troops into another Middle Eastern war but think he & Kerry really misjudged a lot of it. I also have a lot of problems with how under him we expanded drone usage & surveillance. Still for me, the pros outweighed the cons. Time will be the final judge.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 23, 2017 19:57:32 GMT
That weird visit Trump had to the CIA the other day? It's even weirder than we thought. Authorities are also pushing back against the perception that the CIA workforce was cheering for the president. They say the first three rows in front of the president were largely made up of supporters of Mr. Trump’s campaign.
An official with knowledge of the make-up of the crowd says that there were about 40 people who’d been invited by the Trump, Mike Pence and Rep. Mike Pompeo teams. The Trump team expected Rep. Pompeo, R-Kansas, to be sworn in during the event as the next CIA director, but the vote to confirm him was delayed on Friday by Senate Democrats. Also sitting in the first several rows in front of the president was the CIA’s senior leadership, which was not cheering the remarks. |
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Post by glutamodo on Jan 23, 2017 20:08:45 GMT
In recent decades, with the media recording everything one says, Presidents really need to watch what they say, as statements are so very easily turned into memorable sound bites that can then come back to "bite" the person that spoke the words. The whole "Read my lips, no new taxes" quote, as alluded to above, is a perfect example of this.
I'm already wondering, in the future, if the Trumpster will be generally graded based on the things he said in the campaign, vs the things he says and will say as President, judged against the things the actually DOES in The Office. Personally, I only plan to look at the latter in my own opinion/assessment of the man's performance. But I really don't think that the "pundits" will do anything like that... but time will tell.
Yes, this comes from someone who happens to live in the U.S. state where I think Trump won with the largest voting percentage... and that was without my own vote! The sad thing is, if I had voted, while I might have voted for The Donald, it would not have been a "vote for Trump" but rather a vote against that Hilarious Clinton chick. But just pressing one button does not express any of this... |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 23, 2017 20:28:07 GMT
As I noted earlier this election cycle was crazy. I really thought Kasich was best positioned to be the GOP nominee. Former Congressman, former Fox News host and very popular sitting governor of a major swing state. And an actual conservative. A little kooky but not too kooky. Although as this year proves, not kooky enough just doesn't cut it. I do admire him sticking to his guns as far as Trump is concerned and it is nice to not see a pol sell his soul to achieve power.
A lot of my friends think Bernie would have beaten Trump and I'm just not convinced. I think the moment you have to explain the difference to people between being a Democratic Socialist and a Socialist and you can't fit those differences on a bumper sticker, I think you've lost. Anyway, P.T. Barnum was proved to be correct and the circus has hit the White House. I guess we are about to find out just how strong our democracy really is.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 20:33:55 GMT
In my lifetime, the presidents are remembered for all the bad and none of the good. Nixon, do I need to elaborate Fall down Ford Billy Beer Old Man Regan and his free trade agreement, what a bad idea Bush 1, letting Saddam live Clinton and Monica Bush 2, war on terrorism Obama, nothing will remain of his legacy Trump, playing the system Sure you can name some good things they did, but they are really remembered for their failures and looking like fools at times. Jimmy Carter was the best man overall to be president in my lifetime, and he has done much more good after his presidency while working for and promoting HUD, He had the best of intentions, and absolutely no way to get anything passed. Regan had a 20 year plan, unfortunately not a single president after him, planned anything, thus we crashed hard in the mid 2000's Bush 1 freed Kuwait, but lost when he promised no new taxes Clinton well, to tell the truth, he played the sax, and the field, and that's about it. Bush 2, got 9/11 dropped on him, and went to war against a rather invisible enemy. Obama used his pen to get things ordered into law, many without congressional approval, thus easy for Trump to trump. His legacy will only be known as the first African American president, and sadly in 100 years, will be nothing but an afterthought. Trump will war with the media, make fun of other rulers all over the world, and eliminate everything that Obama ever did. He did impress me already though, by striking down the trade agreement with Asia, I was against it from the beginning. We need jobs in America, and have to stop buying junk made in China, Taiwan, and all those other countries. I think Obama will be remembered well, but it is still too early to tell. Despite his impeachment and his sex scandals, I think Clinton is still remembered well. I'm not a fan of Reagan, but the man is practically worshipped by a lot of the country. If I'm honest, the only reason Obama will be known is for being a black president. He's not going to have anything from his legacy. He might also be remembered for trying to make America have similar ideals to Britain: no guns and a national health care service. However, the former won't be let through, due to stubborn Republicans and the latter has basically become health insurance. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 20:34:59 GMT
Personally, I haven't been impressed by many US Presidents, but then again I am not in the USA or American so what I think doesn't matter... but I do think the next four years are going to be very entertaining!  |
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 23, 2017 20:35:42 GMT
I knew Trump would beat Hillary, but he would have lost to Bernie, Bernie would have kept to the issues, but Hillary had way to much baggage.
On a side note, if one of the crazies(if you assassinate a president you must be crazy) actually do assassinate Trump, I thought the same thing when Obama took office, this country will probably implode, and it will be a good time to head for the hills, cause there is a lot of pure hate floating around this country right now, like it or not. Mix that with fear, and that's very combustible.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 23, 2017 20:37:24 GMT
but I do think the next four years are going to be very entertaining! I cant agree with this enough, it is going to be a spectacle for sure. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 20:40:08 GMT
History is a funny thing. It is all Watergate but history shows that Nixon was a very effective President. Under Nixon we got the EPA, OSHA and the START I treaty. Hell if not for the Democrats in Congress wanting something even more liberal Nixon would have passed health care reform that was much more progressive than what Barack Obama eventually got through. Carter was one who doesn't get a lot of credit but the Camp David Peace accords is one the most important diplomatic breakthroughs of the last century. And people forget that Carter was an ex-Navy guy and it was actually him who started the arms build-up that Reagan cranked into overdrive which of course helped advance the Soviet Union. It is also often forgot that it was Carter who put Paul Volcker in charge of the Fed and if you know anything about the Reagan era you know Paul Volcker was a huge factor in the recovery under Reagan. And as an ex-President Carter is second to none. If anyone has the time they should read up on Carter's time in the Navy. If not for the botched rescue attempt of the hostages he probably would have won re-election. I still sit and am shocked that George HW BUsh wasn't re-elected. I think it was less breaking the no new taxes pledge, which we know ended up being the catalyst for the economic recovery which happened under Bill Clinton, than it was that image of Bush not knowing what the price scanner at a grocery store during a campaign stop. The interesting thing about Obama, besides him leaving office with 1 60% approval rating, is his was the first scandal free administration we have seen since, what, LBJ? Besides that I do think history will look upon warmly. His greatest misstep remains Syria. I admire not wanting to send troops into another Middle Eastern war but think he & Kerry really misjudged a lot of it. I also have a lot of problems with how under him we expanded drone usage & surveillance. Still for me, the pros outweighed the cons. Time will be the final judge. I suppose no scandals from him is what kind of sums him up. Clean like hell, but clean is like vanilla. Plain. He hasn't done much, really, and I think that angers a majority of Americans. Doesn't help race relations got worse under him. And the racism in the country has now become two-sided. If I'm honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of civil war over there in coming years, due to how pathetic and/or aggressive some people get about. And, if we're being frank, most of the Obama changes was to make it more like the UK, really. However, it's kind of had a negative effect. America becoming too similar now makes people get easily triggered by things in our country, too, to spite the fact we got a Muslim mayor and a female prime-minister in the same year. And no, I'm not just going for the feminists. I'm going for people on both sides. Tough position we're in now and that's why we have Corbyn, Trump, Farage, Johnson and all the other colorful characters now. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2017 20:42:37 GMT
As I noted earlier this election cycle was crazy. I really thought Kasich was best positioned to be the GOP nominee. Former Congressman, former Fox News host and very popular sitting governor of a major swing state. And an actual conservative. A little kooky but not too kooky. Although as this year proves, not kooky enough just doesn't cut it. I do admire him sticking to his guns as far as Trump is concerned and it is nice to not see a pol sell his soul to achieve power. A lot of my friends think Bernie would have beaten Trump and I'm just not convinced. I think the moment you have to explain the difference to people between being a Democratic Socialist and a Socialist and you can't fit those differences on a bumper sticker, I think you've lost. Anyway, P.T. Barnum was proved to be correct and the circus has hit the White House. I guess we are about to find out just how strong our democracy really is. If I'm honest, both sides had better candidates, but they were very desperate for people who would please certain people. The only reason Clinton got through is because she's a woman and it's a score for populism. The only reason Trump got through is because he's the loudest voice in any room. It's a pity, really, and has resulted in a lot of racism (both sides) and a lot of needless aggression. |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 23, 2017 20:57:05 GMT
History is a funny thing. It is all Watergate but history shows that Nixon was a very effective President. Under Nixon we got the EPA, OSHA and the START I treaty. Hell if not for the Democrats in Congress wanting something even more liberal Nixon would have passed health care reform that was much more progressive than what Barack Obama eventually got through. Carter was one who doesn't get a lot of credit but the Camp David Peace accords is one the most important diplomatic breakthroughs of the last century. And people forget that Carter was an ex-Navy guy and it was actually him who started the arms build-up that Reagan cranked into overdrive which of course helped advance the Soviet Union. It is also often forgot that it was Carter who put Paul Volcker in charge of the Fed and if you know anything about the Reagan era you know Paul Volcker was a huge factor in the recovery under Reagan. And as an ex-President Carter is second to none. If anyone has the time they should read up on Carter's time in the Navy. If not for the botched rescue attempt of the hostages he probably would have won re-election. I still sit and am shocked that George HW BUsh wasn't re-elected. I think it was less breaking the no new taxes pledge, which we know ended up being the catalyst for the economic recovery which happened under Bill Clinton, than it was that image of Bush not knowing what the price scanner at a grocery store during a campaign stop. The interesting thing about Obama, besides him leaving office with 1 60% approval rating, is his was the first scandal free administration we have seen since, what, LBJ? Besides that I do think history will look upon warmly. His greatest misstep remains Syria. I admire not wanting to send troops into another Middle Eastern war but think he & Kerry really misjudged a lot of it. I also have a lot of problems with how under him we expanded drone usage & surveillance. Still for me, the pros outweighed the cons. Time will be the final judge. I suppose no scandals from him is what kind of sums him up. Clean like hell, but clean is like vanilla. Plain. He hasn't done much, really, and I think that angers a majority of Americans. Doesn't help race relations got worse under him. And the racism in the country has now become two-sided. If I'm honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some kind of civil war over there in coming years, due to how pathetic and/or aggressive some people get about. And, if we're being frank, most of the Obama changes was to make it more like the UK, really. However, it's kind of had a negative effect. America becoming too similar now makes people get easily triggered by things in our country, too, to spite the fact we got a Muslim mayor and a female prime-minister in the same year. And no, I'm not just going for the feminists. I'm going for people on both sides. Tough position we're in now and that's why we have Corbyn, Trump, Farage, Johnson and all the other colorful characters now. Under his administration the US saw its largest job growth since the 1990s, a bail out of the US auto industry which ended up producing sales records, clean energy production doubled, unemployment cut in half, deficit cut by three quarters and the stock market tripled during his tenure. That was off the top of my head. Then there are lists like these. You can argue the merit of things accomplished during his administration put to say his administration didn't do much is absurd. |
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Jan 23, 2017 21:10:52 GMT
And another one. Again, feel free to debate the merit of the items on the list, and I would join folks for a couple of them, but anyone who tries to sell the line that the Obama administration wasn't one of consequence simply isn't acknowledging reality. |
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Jan 24, 2017 7:38:42 GMT
Cutting unemployment in half is a joke. The way they show the unemployment figures is a joke. It's all dependent on how many claims are filed, it does not figure in how many folks have run out of time, and no longer are eligible, many folks just quit looking for work. So ill argue the claim that Obama cut unemployment in half all night long. Of coarse the numbers are halved, millions upon millions of workers don't have any unemployment benefits available to them anymore. And how many jobs did he create by bailing out the auto industry, which was absurd anyway, but it does allow me to call GM Government Motors, since Ford didn't take a dime out of my pocket. And look at the job growth, a lot more Wal-Marts and McDonald employees doesn't really impress me. Where is the job growth for adults? Where is the job growth for the industrial sector, the only sector that grew that impresses me is the electronics sector, and that would have happened with me as president, cause everybody now owns a cell phone. Obama cutting the deficit is a joke, he caused the deficit. Check out the numbers for yourself www.davemanuel.com/history-of-deficits-and-surpluses-in-the-united-states.phpBush was at 161 billion in 2007, It jumped to 459 billion in Obama's first year, and then ballooned to 1413 billion in 2009, so he basically got it back down to what he started with, which is now 438 billion. I will agree that the stock market has sky rocketed, but I will also add, that it was heading that way no matter who was president, because of the electronics market, and such, But I will credit him with that, being in the right place at the right time is always a good thing, and I expect the market to crash under Trump, maybe not as bad as the great depression, but some leveling out is coming for sure. So you got job growth, for teenagers, a bail out of private industry, and a stock market waiting to fall. Yep, he did a great job. And don't forget that the middle class bring home pay took a big hit with the increased prices of insurance. But other than that, he was great. And I didn't even mention that he's an American league fan, I mean, White Sox, I cant stand the DH. But, Edgar Martinez should be in the hall. |
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