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Post by jolyon on Oct 15, 2018 18:07:52 GMT
In an odd twist during my personal viewing schedule, I not only enjoyed Doctor Who last night, but also watched the last episode of the second series of Broadchurch. Odd, because both episodes include the "we're all alone" "you're wrong, you know" scene. I never mind a writer sticking to a good theme, and it's interesting to see it fashioned to sci fi and crime drama alike.
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Post by Tim Bradley on Oct 15, 2018 18:28:10 GMT
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 15, 2018 20:56:12 GMT
Lack of tension - most of the stuff presented in this episode gets solved relatively quickly. The gang are separated, but get reunited five minutes later. There's a mystery of what the Ghost Monument really is - but we find out right away that it's the TARDIS. The boat doesn't work, but they fix it relatively quickly. The ribbons/Remnants become a threat, but are dispatched fairly quickly and easily. I saw someone saying that somehow the episode was both understuffed and overstuffed at the same time, and I suppose I agree with that. I feel like the true identity of the Ghost Monument could have been left a mystery for longer. That did seem to let the air out of the mystery very quickly, but maybe it would have been hard to justify why The Doctor and friends were chasing after the Ghost Monument instead of the TARDIS if things hadn't gone that way? I though they did a very well balanced job getting just enough mileage out of the killer handkerchiefs, though - any less and they might have seemed too disposable, and any more might have started to seem like a diversion.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 15, 2018 21:15:51 GMT
Lack of tension - most of the stuff presented in this episode gets solved relatively quickly. The gang are separated, but get reunited five minutes later. There's a mystery of what the Ghost Monument really is - but we find out right away that it's the TARDIS. The boat doesn't work, but they fix it relatively quickly. The ribbons/Remnants become a threat, but are dispatched fairly quickly and easily. I saw someone saying that somehow the episode was both understuffed and overstuffed at the same time, and I suppose I agree with that. I feel like the true identity of the Ghost Monument could have been left a mystery for longer. That did seem to let the air out of the mystery very quickly, but maybe it would have been hard to justify why The Doctor and friends were chasing after the Ghost Monument instead of the TARDIS if things hadn't gone that way? I though they did a very well balanced job getting just enough mileage out of the killer handkerchiefs, though - any less and they might have seemed too disposable, and any more might have started to seem like a diversion. To build from barnab and opposite from fitz, it would've been more tedious if they had the Ghost Monument as a longer mystery. That would've been more a Moffat tact and, to be frank, who wouldn't quickly work what the Monument is when the 'reappearing' trick is mentioned?
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Post by ollychops on Oct 15, 2018 21:22:10 GMT
That did seem to let the air out of the mystery very quickly, but maybe it would have been hard to justify why The Doctor and friends were chasing after the Ghost Monument instead of the TARDIS if things hadn't gone that way? I though they did a very well balanced job getting just enough mileage out of the killer handkerchiefs, though - any less and they might have seemed too disposable, and any more might have started to seem like a diversion. To build from barnab and opposite from fitz, it would've been more tedious if they had the Ghost Monument as a longer mystery. That would've been more a Moffat tact and, to be frank, who wouldn't quickly work what the Monument is when the 'reappearing' trick is mentioned? Both points are fair. I actually agree with both of you - it justifies why they'd cross such a dangerous planet, and, yeah, it would have been fairly obvious early on what the Ghost Monument really was. I already had a theory before the episode aired that the Ghost Monument would be the TARDIS, so I was expecting them to build up the mystery a little more than revealing it so quickly, but maybe I've just grown used to the show dragging out those sorts of reveals.
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Post by veryfactualdalek on Oct 15, 2018 21:52:06 GMT
To build from barnab and opposite from fitz, it would've been more tedious if they had the Ghost Monument as a longer mystery. That would've been more a Moffat tact and, to be frank, who wouldn't quickly work what the Monument is when the 'reappearing' trick is mentioned? Both points are fair. I actually agree with both of you - it justifies why they'd cross such a dangerous planet, and, yeah, it would have been fairly obvious early on what the Ghost Monument really was. I already had a theory before the episode aired that the Ghost Monument would be the TARDIS, so I was expecting them to build up the mystery a little more than revealing it so quickly, but maybe I've just grown used to the show dragging out those sorts of reveals. My brain always read Monument as momentum so I’d have probably thought it was the Tardis if I didn’t have brain farts
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Post by J.A. Prentice on Oct 16, 2018 2:45:45 GMT
So, whilst I thought the episode was fine, I've been thinking about why it didn't totally work for me, so here's a little more of an in-depth review of the episode. The dialogue, for one thing. I liked Moffat's wittiness during his era, but towards the end it did begin to get a little old, having a quip every other line, so it's nice to not have constant one-liners. Saying that, there's not much spark in the dialogue. The jokes get a little chuckle here and there, but mostly they feel like they fall flat. I overlooked it in the first episode, because... well, the first episode with Chibnall as lead writer can have a little leeway, but second week in and it's still just... fine. Lack of tension - most of the stuff presented in this episode gets solved relatively quickly. The gang are separated, but get reunited five minutes later. There's a mystery of what the Ghost Monument really is - but we find out right away that it's the TARDIS. The boat doesn't work, but they fix it relatively quickly. The ribbons/Remnants become a threat, but are dispatched fairly quickly and easily. I saw someone saying that somehow the episode was both understuffed and overstuffed at the same time, and I suppose I agree with that. I feel like the true identity of the Ghost Monument could have been left a mystery for longer. But, because I don't want to be too negative I'll list some positive things - the new theme tune and title sequence are great, I love them already. The actors were still on form, and I'm enjoying getting to know this TARDIS team more. The general plot of the episode was decent enough, and made a nice change from alien invasion/base under siege stories. Also, the cinematography was impressive, the director certainly made use of the South African landscapes. So, all-in-all, it was fine, middle-of-the-road Who, certainly not the worst of the bunch. Not every episode can be a hit, but I think the thing that bugs me is that there's only a couple of things they needed to tweak to turn it into a pretty good Who episode. Though, I'm still very much enjoying this TARDIS team so far and I'm looking forward to them meeting Rosa Parks next Sunday! I was going to give my thoughts and then I found fitzsimmons had saved me the effort by saying exactly what I was going to say. The episode was full of brilliant ideas (the rags, space-race, Hartnell-esque planet exploration, TARDIS materializing once every thousand years as a "Ghost Monument") but none of them ever felt as strong or developed as they could. And almost all the dialogue fell into the trap of being predictable. Character mentions their family, other character says it makes them miss their family, first character says to not take their family for granted. It's all... very generic. Not terrible, but generic. It lacks the spark of Moffat or RTD. As a result, an episode that should have revealed new layers to the characters as they're put under pressure just ends up feeling a bit bland. But that new title sequence is so gorgeous I'll forgive everything else.
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Post by mrperson on Oct 16, 2018 2:52:37 GMT
This might require numbered points.
1. I was so terribly, horribly, and stupidly worried. She is very much The Doctor.
2. Chinball got rid of everything I did not like about Moffat with only the tiniest exceptions. It's still heavy on the action but it's also still the second episode. But everything else? Spot on and spot on again.
3. I am genuinely excited. I really did look forward to Capaldi but that wasn't the same kind of excitement because (rant avoided). The last time I was this excited was in 2010 or 11 or whatever it was when I decided to look up Who again while sick with the flu, found 4th doc reruns while flipping channels, found a pirated episode w/ 8 and Lucie elsewhere, and then bought into trying it again. I watched seasons 1-5 in a blur. I knew my wife liked other sci-fi, like original Stargate, so I suggested she try it.
She did. She loved it. And when Season 6 was about to air, I was probably just about the most excited I'd ever been for a TV show. I'm pretty damn excited now, too. This combination works: Chibnall, Whittaker, companions, flavor tone and subject.
Was it the best episode? No.
The only real flaw I saw is the idea that the robots had a button built-in that can release something that deactivates them all. Though on the other hand, if this was a live action game, the idea that such a button exists would follow the logic of a whole lot of computer games I've played.
Once more I find the divergence of views interesting.
It sounds like some of you didn't think the dialogue was sparky enough. Sparky dialogue (or any vaguely similar term) was one of the issues for me with the new series. BF is more understated in a good way.
I personally don't want sparky dialogue, at least if it's the forced result of someone deciding sparky dialogue is needed. I want a story that has people saying things that they would probably say in a given situation, and those sorts of things are not usually sparky with humans.
Problems being solved quickly? Ok. If that becomes the norm, it will start to annoy me. But again, the prior episode had a rather protracted identify & solve phase. I don't mind the occasional one that involves shifting problems, easily solved given time constraints (4 & Sutekh, for example). I could also note that that's a common criticism of Who: the problem is set up beautifully, but the solution is a quick seat-of-the-pants thing. Some are a bit much (emoji episode), but that's the way it usually is.
I vote 4 stars, which for me is 7.5-8.4
Another edit: well, ok, the random luck of the pickup was absurd. Even if there was a reason for people to head to that planet, the location and time had to add up. Quite the coincidence.
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Post by mrperson on Oct 16, 2018 3:01:11 GMT
Just watched it again and noticed something... After hanging unprotected in space for a while, our heroes get picked up by some randomly passing spacecraft and one of the first lines out of a characters mouth is... "DON'T PANIC." To be fair, they didn't mention towels.
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Post by mrperson on Oct 16, 2018 3:04:30 GMT
Oh, and I'm not a fan of the interior.
And why's it part green on the outside now?
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Post by Ela on Oct 16, 2018 3:12:13 GMT
I actually love the interior. And I thought it was really cool that the Ghost Monument turned out to be the TARDIS.
I quite enjoyed the episode.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 6:52:28 GMT
This is just my opinion-I was actually bored after 15 minutes ,I was bored with the constant sonic screw driver and was bored by the I lost my wife comment(so did I) which was a Moffatism,The new Tardis left me unimpressed lit up and the two claim the prize is so “now “ were it would be unfortunate for someone to actually win and leave someone as a loser.Sorry.Hey at least I watched it.Hopefully next week will move me forwards I have to agree, visually it looked great but I was bored rigid, Loved Jodie and last weeks episode, this week not so much with regard either I'm sorry to say. Not too sure about the Tardis interior either !
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Post by doctorkernow on Oct 16, 2018 8:37:21 GMT
Hello again. You know what I wondered. Maybe the the guy in the tent just pretended to declare them joint winners just to shut them up.
When they teleported he had a fatal response waiting for them. Just as well he left the TARDIS crew behind. This is what's known as a Sawardian twist.
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Post by IndieMacUser on Oct 16, 2018 12:25:25 GMT
Fun tidbit, this bit was done as one shot:
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Oct 16, 2018 13:41:32 GMT
Something I thought when 13 entered her TARDIS for the first time was that the show really was going back to something of a RTD era kind of vibe with the organic nature of the TARDIS. Turns out I was kind of right.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Oct 16, 2018 15:22:33 GMT
Stubagful (He Who Moans on Youtube and one of the few reviewing BF on the site) made an interesting observation about the series thus far: Chibnall, whether you like his work or not, is an anlytical writer, and one who is clearly very aware of the landscape. He has heard the frequent complaints levelled at Moffat's era (overcomplicated plots, characters as maguffins/mystery boxes, imblanace of humour and one liners, death not being meaningful) and taken them to task, offering a much leaner, tighter and, despite the bigger budget, less show-off series.
Even in little details like side-characters having clear personalities and viewpoints (even small players like the Security Guard Grandpa and Ilin) compared to the common critcism of Moffat supporting players being joke-machines or bland redshirts, you can see a more conscientious leader.
Wonder if the dialogue complaints will be addressed in S12, assuming he hasn't already toned down later this one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 15:45:58 GMT
Stubagful (He Who Moans on Youtube and one of the few reviewing BF on the site) made an interesting observation about the series thus far: Chibnall, whether you like his work or not, is an anlytical writer, and one who is clearly very aware of the landscape. He has heard the frequent complaints levelled at Moffat's era (overcomplicated plots, characters as maguffins/mystery boxes, imblanace of humour and one liners, death not being meaningful) and taken them to task, offering a much leaner, tighter and, despite the bigger budget, less show-off series. Even in little details like side-characters having clear personalities and viewpoints (even small players like the Security Guard Grandpa and Ilin) compared to the common critcism of Moffat supporting players being joke-machines or bland redshirts, you can see a more conscientious leader. Wonder if the dialogue complaints will be addressed in S12, assuming he hasn't already toned down later this one. Not sure if it can be said with any certainty that Chibbers is reaction against Moffats era or addressing some fans perceived shortcomings. Its probably more likely that he is making the version of the show he wants.
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Oct 16, 2018 15:59:46 GMT
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Post by TinDogPodcast on Oct 16, 2018 16:01:12 GMT
Just watched it again and noticed something... After hanging unprotected in space for a while, our heroes get picked up by some randomly passing spacecraft and one of the first lines out of a characters mouth is... "DON'T PANIC." To be fair, they didn't mention towels.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2018 16:16:50 GMT
Stubagful (He Who Moans on Youtube and one of the few reviewing BF on the site) made an interesting observation about the series thus far: Chibnall, whether you like his work or not, is an anlytical writer, and one who is clearly very aware of the landscape. He has heard the frequent complaints levelled at Moffat's era (overcomplicated plots, characters as maguffins/mystery boxes, imblanace of humour and one liners, death not being meaningful) and taken them to task, offering a much leaner, tighter and, despite the bigger budget, less show-off series. Even in little details like side-characters having clear personalities and viewpoints (even small players like the Security Guard Grandpa and Ilin) compared to the common critcism of Moffat supporting players being joke-machines or bland redshirts, you can see a more conscientious leader. Wonder if the dialogue complaints will be addressed in S12, assuming he hasn't already toned down later this one. Maybe so, but for my money, Dr Who hasn’t been this bland since the early 1980s, and Chibnall has a load of problems writing his own dialogue to be consciously reacting to Moffat. In fact, I’d say that Chibnall is really trying to go for the jokey vibe whenever he can, but doesn’t quite have the chops to pull it off.
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