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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 15:32:54 GMT
For a series that's never been too concerned with Historical Accuracy, this was (Time Travellers aside) probably the most accurate it's ever been. Well done to all involved. Sad but not surprising to see the reaction to it from some quarters but the reality is, if you're white in the Western World (doubly so if you're white and a man), even if you're not racist you're automatically getting privileges that other people don't and it won't kill you to acknowlege it. As a white man my main criticism was about the villain was kinda boring but then that is the point He was just a massive racist A good-looking, 'regular guy', and one of the biggest monsters of all. I liked that juxtaposition.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 16:50:39 GMT
For a series that's never been too concerned with Historical Accuracy, this was (Time Travellers aside) probably the most accurate it's ever been. Well done to all involved. Sad but not surprising to see the reaction to it from some quarters but the reality is, if you're white in the Western World (doubly so if you're white and a man), even if you're not racist you're automatically getting privileges that other people don't and it won't kill you to acknowlege it. As a white man my main criticism was about the villain was kinda boring but then that is the point He was just a massive racist I feel as if they gave us too much information on Krasko for his character to turn out to be so thin. It probably would’ve worked better overall if the episode just admitted “yeah, he’s a one-dimensional Space Racist” from the off, rather than build him up as a character with an interesting backstory, just because after his confrontation with the Doctor his character does just shrivel up and become incredibly thin.
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 22, 2018 17:35:26 GMT
Well, I have to admit to some things beforehand: 1) I did not know about Rosa Parks and the story before it came up for Doctor Who and I googled it; We somehow never did that in school- which tells you a lot about German history lessons and that they should tone down the endless repetitions of Nazi crimes and tell us a bit more about the world --> therefore, first win of this episode as it fulfilled it's education purpose and educated me 2) I was very doubtful about how and if this would work, especially when confronted with all the critisism (justified or otherwise) against the show. I somehow expected it to be cheap, preachy and tiresome. --> well, second win for this episode, because it actually MADE ME CRY at the end, so it very well succeeded in involving me emotionally in the story. But I am built very close to the water (as we say in Germany) so a show making me cry is not as hard as it may seem I do not want to repeat all the things other people have said on here before, because I share most thoughts expressed by you all. So just a few more comments from me: Did anyone else get a "Back to the Future" vibe from this? For me this was quite strong for some reason. I think we have not seen the last of the villain, I am sure whenever Ryan sent him, he will show up again. This is why he was dispatched so fast- he will be warming up for a second round. Looking forward to it- his face-off with the Doctor was great and they are beautifully played as polar opposites. While I think it was a great episode (the best for Jody so far) I still don't think it is as great as Vincent and the Doctor, Human Nature or some of my Capaldi favorites (all these made me cry, too; as I said, I cry easily). The Pop-song at the end, instead of the title music, did put me off slightly. Not a fan. Conclusion- the best of 13s episodes so far. Very well done for positively surprising me and getting me emotionally invested. So next week we have some story involving spiders? Here I go again with being skeptical about how they will pull this off with a straight face. But, bring it on. Surprise me.
PS- oh, I wanted to add- I really LOVED the music and soundtrack this time round. Big thumbs up!
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Post by fitzoliverj on Oct 22, 2018 17:54:18 GMT
As a white man my main criticism was about the villain was kinda boring but then that is the point He was just a massive racist To be honest, they didn't even establish *that*. I don't think it's unreasonable to infer, but I would not be surprised to find that (if he returns later in the series) his motivations are more complicated.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 18:17:50 GMT
I'm surprised more than a few folks think we'll see the villain again. He kinda fulfilled his plot purpose. As to leaving his fate open ended...maybe Chris doesn't like the baddies dying every time and his era won't see the antagonist killed off as often as we're used to.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 18:46:41 GMT
I'm surprised more than a few folks think we'll see the villain again. He kinda fulfilled his plot purpose. As to leaving his fate open ended...maybe Chris doesn't like the baddies dying every time and his era won't see the antagonist killed off as often as we're used to. He learned his lesson with an ironic death. The Stenza appear to be quite obvious candidates to return, but for Krasko to return they’d need to tread bloody carefully so people don’t empathise with him or find him so evil that they love him. Too hard to bring him back without doing either of those things, or making him bland as a result of not doing either of those things.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Oct 22, 2018 18:52:35 GMT
I'm surprised more than a few folks think we'll see the villain again. He kinda fulfilled his plot purpose. As to leaving his fate open ended...maybe Chris doesn't like the baddies dying every time and his era won't see the antagonist killed off as often as we're used to. I agree. I would personally be really, really surprised if we saw him again. I do think Ryan's actions against Krasko might be revisited at some point but I don't see why we would need to see Krasko for that to be dealt with. Speaking of people thinking Krasko will return, I saw a rubbish piece from the Radio Times making the case that Krasko could maybe/possibly be Chibnall's way of bringing The Meddling Monk back into the show. It was the kind of thing I'd expect to read in a third rate Doctor Who fanzine from 20 years ago.
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 22, 2018 18:53:29 GMT
I'm surprised more than a few folks think we'll see the villain again. He kinda fulfilled his plot purpose. As to leaving his fate open ended...maybe Chris doesn't like the baddies dying every time and his era won't see the antagonist killed off as often as we're used to. He learned his lesson with an ironic death. The Stenza appear to be quite obvious candidates to return, but for Krasko to return they’d need to tread bloody carefully so people don’t empathise with him or find him so evil that they love him. Too hard to bring him back without doing either of those things, or making him bland as a result of not doing either of those things. Yeah, the Stenza certainly will come back, but I also think Krasko does. I somehow feel his story is not told yet.
And you forgot another option how this might play out- the Doctor somehow brings him over to her side. Which also would be a bit of a tired cliche. So I really hope for him to become some type of Anti-Villain who might do the right thing in the end, if only for the wrong reasons (like the Master in the End of Time with jumping at Rassilon).
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Post by veryfactualdalek on Oct 22, 2018 18:54:39 GMT
As a white man my main criticism was about the villain was kinda boring but then that is the point He was just a massive racist To be honest, they didn't even establish *that*. I don't think it's unreasonable to infer, but I would not be surprised to find that (if he returns later in the series) his motivations are more complicated. They do When he talks to Ryan and he says “your kind”
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 22, 2018 18:54:53 GMT
I'm surprised more than a few folks think we'll see the villain again. He kinda fulfilled his plot purpose. As to leaving his fate open ended...maybe Chris doesn't like the baddies dying every time and his era won't see the antagonist killed off as often as we're used to. I agree. I would personally be really, really surprised if we saw him again. I do think Ryan's actions against Krasko might be revisited at some point but I don't see why we would need to see Krasko for that to be dealt with. Speaking of people thinking Krasko will return, I saw a rubbish piece from the Radio Times making the case that Krasko could maybe/possibly be Chibnall's way of bringing The Meddling Monk back into the show. It was the kind of thing I'd expect to read in a third rate Doctor Who fanzine from 20 years ago. Nah. He is not the Monk. Not in a million years. But he will be coming back. Mark my words.
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Post by veryfactualdalek on Oct 22, 2018 18:55:36 GMT
I'm surprised more than a few folks think we'll see the villain again. He kinda fulfilled his plot purpose. As to leaving his fate open ended...maybe Chris doesn't like the baddies dying every time and his era won't see the antagonist killed off as often as we're used to. He learned his lesson with an ironic death. The Stenza appear to be quite obvious candidates to return, but for Krasko to return they’d need to tread bloody carefully so people don’t empathise with him or find him so evil that they love him. Too hard to bring him back without doing either of those things, or making him bland as a result of not doing either of those things. Also without diminishing the effect of this episode
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Oct 22, 2018 18:59:24 GMT
To be honest, they didn't even establish *that*. I don't think it's unreasonable to infer, but I would not be surprised to find that (if he returns later in the series) his motivations are more complicated. They do When he talks to Ryan and he says “your kind” I think that was pretty clear as well. Krasko's actions were totally rooted in racism.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 19:00:33 GMT
He learned his lesson with an ironic death. The Stenza appear to be quite obvious candidates to return, but for Krasko to return they’d need to tread bloody carefully so people don’t empathise with him or find him so evil that they love him. Too hard to bring him back without doing either of those things, or making him bland as a result of not doing either of those things. Yeah, the Stenza certainly will come back, but I also think Krasko does. I somehow feel his story is not told yet.
And you forgot another option how this might play out- the Doctor somehow brings him over to her side. Which also would be a bit of a tired cliche. So I really hope for him to become some type of Anti-Villain who might do the right thing in the end, if only for the wrong reasons (like the Master in the End of Time with jumping at Rassilon).
Making him an anti-hero missed the point. He’s irredeemable, a total bastard, completely repugnant in his views. You should never celebrate a character who’s villainy comes out of real-life hatred.
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Post by nottenst on Oct 22, 2018 19:00:47 GMT
Bit disappointed it doesn't continue right from last weeks episode and they've had several more adventures. I liked that aspect. It leaves room for Big Finish adventures
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Oct 22, 2018 19:02:50 GMT
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 22, 2018 19:03:19 GMT
Yeah, the Stenza certainly will come back, but I also think Krasko does. I somehow feel his story is not told yet.
And you forgot another option how this might play out- the Doctor somehow brings him over to her side. Which also would be a bit of a tired cliche. So I really hope for him to become some type of Anti-Villain who might do the right thing in the end, if only for the wrong reasons (like the Master in the End of Time with jumping at Rassilon).
Making him an anti-hero missed the point. He’s irredeemable, a total bastard, completely repugnant in his views. You should never celebrate a character who’s villainy comes out of real-life hatred. No, not an anti-hero, a anti-villain. There is a difference. A anti-villain stays evil and a villain, but he might do something good for the wrong reasons. Therefore my Master example.
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Post by tuigirl on Oct 22, 2018 19:04:41 GMT
And you know what I want to see now? A meeting with Elvis and Sinatra (taking away that mobile phone). Maybe that is something Big Finish could pick up in the not so far future...
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Post by dasmaniac on Oct 22, 2018 19:05:09 GMT
I liked this episode. It had significant problems but none of them detracted from the focus of the story. Like last week's episode, I just wish these episodes were longer.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 19:45:22 GMT
I liked this episode. It had significant problems but none of them detracted from the focus of the story. Like last week's episode, I just wish these episodes were longer. Remember the old adage: always leave the audience wanting more!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 19:58:39 GMT
I know a lot of people loved this but I... really hated it. It had a villain who posed 0 threat (why didn’t he use that gun on Rosa and send her back in time. I know he couldn’t actually KILL her but he was using that time travel gun freely on everyone else), and the dialogue was extremely clunky (with such lines as ‘See? I’m not stupid, I just got confused by the whole bus thing!’ and ‘Thanks to Rosa Parks, I can become a police officer!’). Also having the white characters bravely doing nothing is a horrible idea for the climax of your segregation episode. Oh, and that pop song over the end credits was an utter insult. Why did it keep playing over the trailer? Were the spiders rising up?
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