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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 11, 2018 22:43:21 GMT
That’s what my partner said, but I don’t think it’s very well explained in the episode. Unless I’m being completely thick and missed something? I think it could have done with Yaz’s grandma remembering Yaz at the end of the episode. She gives the watch go Yaz, knowing she somehow manages to go back in time and figure out the truth. Like I said, it’s been such an exposition heavy series, that the lack of any explanation for this is strange! Why would she remember a woman she only met for about a day and a half sixty odds years before, and an event clouded more heavily by the death of her first love? Plus, if she's seen Yaz grow up, she likely never noticed the resemblance or just dismissed it as coincidence.
Indeed, the way Nanni is written seems to indicate a woman who has, in her own way, made peace with those events and doesn't really think about them at any great length. She made her life elsewhere and is just happy to have a grandkid like Yaz. The watch doesn't represent regret for a life that might've been.
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Post by jolyon on Nov 11, 2018 22:55:20 GMT
To all those who seem to be saying that the Doctor had no impact upon the course of this adventure and events would have played out the same regardless of the TARDIS visiting, I would recommend you give it another view. I would direct you to the scene where the Doctor has conduct of the marriage ceremony. This scene is central to the love story at the heart of the story. If the TARDIS had not been there, there would be nobody to conduct the ceremony. There would be no marriage. There would be no broken watch. Which means the TARDIS would never have made the journey and so...
If you review the scene where the demons tell the Doctor why they are there, and watch the scene where the Doctor warns everyone about the forthcoming threat and confronts the fellow with the gun, there you'll see your hero directly responsible for making sure everyone has the time to ensure the female family members are able to escape, rather than being killed on the farm.
This means Yaz's grandmother's timeline is as it stands directly because of the Doctor's input. Direct impact on the story, twice in less than 15 minutes.
Everything is as it should be. Phew!
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Post by shallacatop on Nov 11, 2018 22:56:57 GMT
That’s what my partner said, but I don’t think it’s very well explained in the episode. Unless I’m being completely thick and missed something? I think it could have done with Yaz’s grandma remembering Yaz at the end of the episode. She gives the watch go Yaz, knowing she somehow manages to go back in time and figure out the truth. Like I said, it’s been such an exposition heavy series, that the lack of any explanation for this is strange! Why would she remember a woman she only met for about a day and a half sixty odds years before, and an event clouded more heavily by the death of her first love? Plus, if she's seen Yaz grow up, she likely never noticed the resemblance or just dismissed it as coincidence.
Indeed, the way Nanni is written seems to indicate a woman who has, in her own way, made peace with those events and doesn't really think about them at any great length. She made her life elsewhere and is just happy to have a grandkid like Yaz. The watch doesn't represent regret for a life that might've been.
I could buy into that, but Yaz was present for the wedding, present for the breaking of the watch. An item which clearly meant a lot to the grandmother. It’s not like Yaz was there on a random day, she was there on a memorable day of her grandmothers life that we know she remembers. I’m not intending to be too critical. I didn’t reckon much to the chap playing Prem, so the emotional side of the episode didn’t really work for me. Indeed, I thought Graham’s speech to Yaz was the most emotional thing about the episode. And the modern day stuff just feels a little muddled to me because ultimately nothing comes of it. I’m just feeling a little not with it, I suppose. Like it was something everyone adored and I didn’t get.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 11, 2018 23:04:01 GMT
I'm really curious to see if, like Rosa, we'll be getting a lot of tweets from teachers and parents about kids learning more about partition. Really wondering if this episode will be used in classes like Rosa was.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 0:12:37 GMT
I'm really curious to see if, like Rosa, we'll be getting a lot of tweets from teachers and parents about kids learning more about partition. Really wondering if this episode will be used in classes like Rosa was. It's less overtly educational than Rosa was, but I think the partition was better portrayed here than the racism was in Rosa, purely because you can't effectively show what life was really like in the segregated South in a 50-minute story about a specific person like you can in an episode about how one event drives a family apart.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 12, 2018 0:41:07 GMT
The verdict.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 0:42:56 GMT
Beautiful. A human tragedy. I had to close my eyes when the demons made their final appearance, I didn't want to see the killing blow. Ironic really, like the Doctor and company, I couldn't bring myself to bear witness. I only heard it and... It was his brother. It was his brother, but in the end, that didn't seem to matter. What a terrible thing to happen in a family. A deeply moving and poignant story.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 0:44:33 GMT
I absolutely loved it. I don't care if The Doctor doesn't influence events, it wasn't that kind of story. It was a (much needed) character piece for Yas and I thought it succeeded marvelously. It could easily have been Rosa 2, where the team have to influence Gandhi or Jinnah but instead it was a story about one small family being torn apart....on those terms I thought it was rather wonderful.
And a minor thing I loved, the second - the very second - The Doctor realizes the tragedy of the "villains" and that they're not killers, she does their hand gesture to salute them. A tiny thing but it really touched me. A moment of pure empathy.
I'm guessing Julie Hendmonsaigh and Jodie's reunion from Broadchurch Season 3 won't be as intense as that was but that looks decent next week.
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Nov 12, 2018 0:57:51 GMT
I don't understand any of the complaints about the episode stated in this thread. And I don't understand the complaints of those that can't be bothered to watch the episode even less. That was a beautifully executed piece of television. Eddie Robson, and Paul Magrs, are right, Chibnall's vision of Doctor Who, when it comes to the historicals, is rooted in the traditions from the earliest days of the series. I can easily imagine the 1st Doctor along with Ian, Susan & Barbara in this adventure. This is a story about people trying to love in a period of history that was full of hate. How tragic. I think this is easily Whittaker's best episode. Mandip Gill is finally given something to sink her teeth into and she soars. Bradley Cooper remains the show's MVP. He literally had be in tears. It goes without saying that the show looks & sounds gorgeous. This and Rosa are the high marks of the series so far for me.
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Post by nucleusofswarm on Nov 12, 2018 1:14:19 GMT
Another key to the episode's strengths is the core relationship: you totally buy Umbreen and Prem as a couple, and why they want to be together. He's a hard worker who doesn't throw his military career around, willing to make sacrifices and embrace new things, and she's not a meek little housewife whose presumed lack of a formal education makes her passive and ignorant. She's clearly got some brains on her and doesn't want to settle for any old thing.
Manish is also fairly strong: the twist works well and you can see why, in lieu of father or brother figures in his adolescence, he turns to violent, nationalist rhetoric to find some semblance of a purpose and identity. It's a great way to slide in parrallels and commentary about modern radicalization without needing to slow or stop the episode for it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 1:31:50 GMT
I don't understand any of the complaints about the episode stated in this thread. And I don't understand the complaints of those that can't be bothered to watch the episode even less. That was a beautifully executed piece of television. Eddie Robson, and Paul Magrs, are right, Chibnall's vision of Doctor Who, when it comes to the historicals, is rooted in the traditions from the earliest days of the series. I can easily imagine the 1st Doctor along with Ian, Susan & Barbara in this adventure. This is a story about people trying to love in a period of history that was full of hate. How tragic. I think this is easily Whittaker's best episode. Mandip Gill is finally given something to sink her teeth into and she soars. Bradley Cooper remains the show's MVP. He literally had be in tears. It goes without saying that the show looks & sounds gorgeous. This and Rosa are the high marks of the series so far for me. Bradley Cooper?! Where?!
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Post by Audio Watchdog on Nov 12, 2018 1:37:49 GMT
Damn spellcheck.
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Post by number13 on Nov 12, 2018 2:31:55 GMT
That was outstanding, one of the best episodes since the 2005 revival for me, just as I think 'The Aztecs' is one of the very best stories of the classic era. “You can’t rewrite history – not one line!” but they can revisit it, and here the travellers all know this history must not be changed, but it can be understood and helped along its proper course, desperately sad though that is, and most of all, this family and national history can be witnessed - and remembered.
Condensing the birth of two nations 'alike in destiny' and the vast tragedy of Partition into a single 'Romeo and Juliet' story of two lovers (if not star-crossed, then at least alien-crossed) with Yaz's family story was one stroke of genius among many. This could easily have been told as a pure historical (as could 'Rosa' have been), but this time the science-fiction elements were far more than just decorations on a gripping human story and the timing was superb.
The seemingly threatening 'demons' added science-fiction spice to the early parts of the story - and I liked the mystery around them and whatever danger we assumed they posed. But how much greater the truth was, when we learned it.
On this day of all days, how absolutely perfect to meet aliens who honour the memory of their own tragic past (a past which turned them away from violence forever) by honouring and remembering all those who fall alone and risk being otherwise forgotten. On this day, when as well as the countless war graves, in the UK we remembered the fallen of the Commonwealth who have no grave but (like one of my relatives) are a name on memorials such the Menin Gate, or the Thiepval Memorial on the Somme.
So these six visitors from the future and the stars witnessed, honoured and will remember one brave man who had fought in a war to defend his soon-to-be-independent country, and on that day in 1947 died so that his new family might escape.
There are so many details I could pick out - like the fields of poppies - but I'll just say I found it a very moving, beautifully told and produced story. Thanks and congratulations to Vinay Patel and the whole team for a modern classic of 'Doctor Who' - and thanks also for the outstanding scheduling.
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Post by newt5996 on Nov 12, 2018 2:33:31 GMT
This is the first episode of the series I feel confident in rating a 5/5. There's a moment here, right when the Doctor figures out what the aliens are and what the demons of the title actually refer to. The ending of the executed was executed much better than Rosa (that song ruined a lot of good will Rosa brought) and using a variant of the Doctor Who theme reminded me a lot of the powerhouse ending to Jacqueline Rayner's Doctor Who and the Pirates (actually there are a lot of things done here and in Pirates which are similar and enhance each story). I finally feel like I understand who Yasmin is as a character through her relationship with her grandmother, though anyone shipping Yaz and Thirteen the door is that way thank you very much. Ugh it was just so good!
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Post by relativetime on Nov 12, 2018 2:49:24 GMT
This and Rosa are my favorite episodes of the series so far. They may not be the pure historical stories I've been craving, but they've come the closest to it since 2005 and I am definitely a fan! I love the pacing, the characterization, the music, the acting - everything about this episode hit it on the mark for me! And in my opinion, this week's alien design is the best looking of the series so far - not to mention the nice twist behind their presence in the story too! Sure, we haven't seen many conventional villains like the Master or the Daleks this season, but frankly it'd get REALLY boring if that's all Doctor Who ever did. I'm very happy with where Chibnall has decided to take the show thus far.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 2:58:27 GMT
That Indian version of the Doctor Who theme over the credits is just stunning. Really wonderful. I've re-listened a few times now and it gets better and better.
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Nov 12, 2018 2:58:28 GMT
Hot damn! Now THAT was a terrific episode of Doctor Who! Stone cold 5/5!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 3:25:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 6:04:02 GMT
I actually forgot Doctor Who was on 🤪so i missed it
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Post by TimPendragon on Nov 12, 2018 6:56:35 GMT
Without having read any of the other posts yet, here's my fresh unvarnished take on this episode. An amazing hour of BBC drama. A great story, well-produced and acted. But it didn't feel like it had to be a Doctor Who story. Things would have progressed nearly exactly the same without their presence at all, and while it greatly illuminated a period of history and shone a light on a cultural event that hasn't been explored nearly enough, it didn't feel like it revealed enough about the characters we followed into the story in order to justify their being there. Like it wanted to be this series' version of Father's Day, but without the consequences for Yaz. *She* gained knowledge about her grandmother, but I don't feel any greater insight into *her* than I did before. That, and the tone was depressing, akin to Fiddler on the Roof or The Wind That Shakes the Barley, unlike Rosa, which was challenging, maddening, and uncomfortable, but which in the end, tried to be uplifting and hopeful. So on its own merits, as a BBC drama, I give it a 10 out of 10. As an episode of Doctor Who, I don't know how I feel. It's not one I think I'd ever want to revisit. But I am grateful to it for showing me more about the partition than I ever knew before. It's brilliant, but for me to enjoy, it I'd have wanted more Doctor Who out of it. But I am capable of recognizing something's value and merit even if I don't enjoy it on an emotional level. It's probably the best told story of the season, by far.
EDIT: And before anyone tells me that this is analogous to The Aztecs, when they couldn't change history, yes I understand that part of it. I don't need the outcome to change, but I'm missing the impact on our understanding of the characters. In The Aztecs, we got to know the main characters better through the story, most especially Barbara, which didn't happen here at all, at least for me.
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