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Post by dalekbuster523finish on May 20, 2016 11:22:33 GMT
The biggest one for me is The End of Time Part 2 when the Doctor says 'I don't want to go'. It's obvious since Day of the Doctor that he meant 'I don't want to go because I know I'll go to Trenzalore in my next regeneration' rather than 'I don't want to go because I've grown attached to this body'. I think you've taking a joke re-use of a line more seriously than anyone intended. Moffat was not changing the meaning of the original line, just riffing on it for a comedy moment. I don't think he was intentionally changing it but it can be interpretated that way.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 11:26:47 GMT
I've mentioned it before but there is a moment near the end of the first Ninth Doctor book, The Clockwise Man where {Spoiler} The Doctor gives Repple a battered Brown Leather Jacket and tells Rose he doesnt need it anymore. Since I read this after i read Engines of War, I saw the jacket as being the one he wore as the War Doctor That's remarkable. Similarly in 2013 when the book Harvest of time came out, we are introduced to some interesting possibilities for the Master {Spoiler} Specifically a vast collection of actual and potential future incarnations of himself, including a female incarnation who is wearing a frilled black outfit and has black hair. The only thing that doesn't quite match is the vein of grey that runs through her hair, but even Missy must get old someday huh? Hell, it may even be done sometime in the future just as a fashion statement. I pictured her a little bit like Lady Tremaine at the time, so it's a very interesting bit of real life vs. imagined.
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bobod
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Post by bobod on May 20, 2016 11:43:03 GMT
I think you've taking a joke re-use of a line more seriously than anyone intended. Moffat was not changing the meaning of the original line, just riffing on it for a comedy moment. I don't think he was intentionally changing it but it can be interpretated that way. It could be, but you'd have to actually want to be misunderstanding the intention.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on May 20, 2016 12:52:41 GMT
I've mentioned it before but there is a moment near the end of the first Ninth Doctor book, The Clockwise Man where {Spoiler} The Doctor gives Repple a battered Brown Leather Jacket and tells Rose he doesnt need it anymore. Since I read this after i read Engines of War, I saw the jacket as being the one he wore as the War Doctor That's remarkable. Similarly in 2013 when the book Harvest of time came out, we are introduced to some interesting possibilities for the Master {Spoiler} Specifically a vast collection of actual and potential future incarnations of himself, including a female incarnation who is wearing a frilled black outfit and has black hair. The only thing that doesn't quite match is the vein of grey that runs through her hair, but even Missy must get old someday huh? Thats true. Makes you wonder if Moffat had been reading some of the books and used bits he liked
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2016 13:22:31 GMT
That's remarkable. Similarly in 2013 when the book Harvest of time came out, we are introduced to some interesting possibilities for the Master {Spoiler} Specifically a vast collection of actual and potential future incarnations of himself, including a female incarnation who is wearing a frilled black outfit and has black hair. The only thing that doesn't quite match is the vein of grey that runs through her hair, but even Missy must get old someday huh? Thats true. Makes you wonder if Moffat had been reading some of the books and used bits he liked Alien Bodies was definitely one novel he had on his mind for chunks of his tenure from the Doctor discovering where he died to River's death-defying leap from the Empire State Building into the TARDIS. It definitely happens, reading the Eighth Doctor DWM comics really does make Russell T. Davies's own inspirations just gleam on television ( The Final Chapter and The Flood, in particular). I have a sneaking suspicion that Seasons 10-12 of the classic series bled over into Davies time on the show (e.g. The homage to the Cybernauts in Rise of the Cybermen), whereas Moffat was more attuned to Season 18-20, the Adams/Bidmead era (i.e. surrounded by almost fantastical trappings with less of an emphasis on character drama and more on broad concepts).
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Post by whiskeybrewer on May 20, 2016 13:30:46 GMT
Thats true. Makes you wonder if Moffat had been reading some of the books and used bits he liked Alien Bodies was definitely one novel he had on his mind for chunks of his tenure from the Doctor discovering where he died to River's death-defying leap from the Empire State Building into the TARDIS. It definitely happens, reading the Eighth Doctor DWM comics really does make Russell T. Davies's own inspirations just gleam on television ( The Final Chapter and The Flood, in particular). I have a sneaking suspicion that Seasons 10-12 of the classic series bled over into Davies time on the show (e.g. The homage to the Cybernauts in Rise of the Cybermen), whereas Moffat was more attuned to Season 18-20, the Adams/Bidmead era (i.e. surrounded by almost fantastical trappings with less of an emphasis on character drama and more on broad concepts). Thats true actually. Shows how Nuwho still has strong links to Classic Who. Surprised Miles didnt try and sue Moffat for the whole of his run, not just Name of the Doctor lol
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Post by seeley on May 22, 2016 5:28:33 GMT
Alien Bodies was definitely one novel he had on his mind for chunks of his tenure from the Doctor discovering where he died to River's death-defying leap from the Empire State Building into the TARDIS. It definitely happens, reading the Eighth Doctor DWM comics really does make Russell T. Davies's own inspirations just gleam on television ( The Final Chapter and The Flood, in particular). I have a sneaking suspicion that Seasons 10-12 of the classic series bled over into Davies time on the show (e.g. The homage to the Cybernauts in Rise of the Cybermen), whereas Moffat was more attuned to Season 18-20, the Adams/Bidmead era (i.e. surrounded by almost fantastical trappings with less of an emphasis on character drama and more on broad concepts). Thats true actually. Shows how Nuwho still has strong links to Classic Who. Surprised Miles didnt try and sue Moffat for the whole of his run, not just Name of the Doctor lol I feel that doesn't really matter to Miles, seeing as he is less than enamored of Alien Bodies. He has, apparently, blamed himself for everything purportedly wrong with the Moffat era. Anyhow, I don't see how Miles could sue Moffat. Yes, Moffat was a huge fan of Alien Bodies, and yes, it is a definite influence on Moffat, but nothing Moffat has borrowed is particularly unique to it. Learning the circumstances of your own death and seeing your own tomb? Both of those are extremely obvious occupational hazards of time travel. Heck, the latter was played with in Revelation of the Daleks. And Battlefield did the whole "running into echoes of your future"-shtick (and given Miles' admiration for Aaronovitch, it's a probable inspiration for Alien Bodies.)
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 23:22:22 GMT
Thats true actually. Shows how Nuwho still has strong links to Classic Who. Surprised Miles didnt try and sue Moffat for the whole of his run, not just Name of the Doctor lol I feel that doesn't really matter to Miles, seeing as he is less than enamored of Alien Bodies. He has, apparently, blamed himself for everything purportedly wrong with the Moffat era. He has the same opinion of Down, which riffs on traditional pulp tropes, and thought Interference could have been shrunk down to a single novel. I think he seems a little proud about Dead Romance, but it's his stuff for the Faction Paradox range that shines. Anyhow, I don't see how Miles could sue Moffat. Yes, Moffat was a huge fan of Alien Bodies, and yes, it is a definite influence on Moffat, but nothing Moffat has borrowed is particularly unique to it. Learning the circumstances of your own death and seeing your own tomb? Both of those are extremely obvious occupational hazards of time travel. Heck, the latter was played with in Revelation of the Daleks. And Battlefield did the whole "running into echoes of your future"-shtick (and given Miles' admiration for Aaronovitch, it's a probable inspiration for Alien Bodies.) That's another thing I noticed too. The Eleventh Doctor's wish to suddenly fade into the background and wipe away all knowledge of himself bears a striking similarity to what the Seventh Doctor wanted to do in Aaronovitch's Transit when he learnt that there were mythological cults being set up around his visits on Earth. I think Miles would have cause and justification if Moffat had ripped the entire plot from its foundations and had the Eleventh Doctor and Clara turn up in a building that up until recently (relatively speaking) did not exist in time for an auction of the former's long-dead carcass. There's an Audio Visuals play called Cloud of Fear where the Doctor is sprawled across his own casket as Death swings his scythe and takes away his lives one by one, so the concept of the Doctor actually visiting his own grave has been floating around since at least the eighties. As it stands, it feels almost like it's trying to homage one of Miles's Victoriana cult stories what with the scene of an astral seance and its attempts to wax lyrical about the series' mythology (revising rather than expanding upon it in Moffat's case). Even though both appear to have been wiped from history, I think Bodies succeeded more than Name in giving that sense of gravitas to the whole event and I suspect that's down to the medium: a two-three hundred page novel vs. one forty-five minute episode. Well, that and it adds to the mythology rather than taking away from it, although I did find it amusing that Clara seemed to only turn up in stories like Dragonfire and Arc of Infinity (how she ended up in the Matrix, I have no idea). Eight is also a Doctor that's given a certain level of gravitas despite his innocuous appearance by thwarting the Shift, the Krotons, Faction Paradox and trying to strangle Qixotl, unlike Eleven who is pretty much a powerless victim throughout the whole thing.
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Post by seeley on May 23, 2016 3:03:41 GMT
I think Miles would have cause and justification if Moffat had ripped the entire plot from its foundations and had the Eleventh Doctor and Clara turn up in a building that up until recently (relatively speaking) did not exist in time for an auction of the former's long-dead carcass. Which reminds me: The Ancestor Cell's giant bone edifice, tied intricately to the Doctor's destiny, appearing above Gallifrey on the eve of the War was originally Miles' idea, although the particulars were different. He was less than happy with Cole and Angelhides' appropriation of it. Though to be fair to Mr. Cole, it was originally pitched to him as part of a huge PDA arc showing Gallifrey at various stages of the War, so it's possible that he forgot about it and then remembered it without realizing where it came from. If nothing else, it seems awfully stupid of him to so blatantly nick it, especially when he paid precious little heed to the rest of Miles' vision (especially the identities of Grandfather Paradox and the Enemy.) There's an Audio Visuals play called Cloud of Fear where the Doctor is sprawled across his own casket as Death swings his scythe and takes away his lives one by one, so the concept of the Doctor actually visiting his own grave has been floating around since at least the eighties. That's probably the best instance of the Doctor angsting over his mortality (something Alien Bodies isn't interested in, for obvious reasons) that I can think of. Briggs plays it magnificently. "First the dead walk, and now they swim! I'll leave before it does the hornpipe!" It's a real shame that the BF Minuet in Hell went so pear-shaped. Alan Lear would have been a wonderful addition to the writers' stable. And he died in 2008, so his talent, alas, will go all too-underappreciated. Even though both appear to have been wiped from history, I think Bodies succeeded more than Name in giving that sense of gravitas to the whole event and I suspect that's down to the medium: a two-three hundred page novel vs. one forty-five minute episode. It also has the advantage of context. There wasn't a whole story-arc devoted to the Doctor's supposed death in 1996, as there was in 2011. Similarly, with no Ninth Doctor in site, the Doctor's life after his Eighth body seemed distant and unreachable, whereas televised Doctors regenerate about every three years. And while I enjoyed Name, Moffat is really much better suited to small-scale pieces like Blink or Listen. He has himself admitted that he could not have done what RTD did, and I do wish he weren't straitjacketed into the same role. Mind, it could have gone worse. Moffat is at least a competent writer, even at the worst of times (basic competency in writing is, I allege, an underappreciated skill.) Miles, on the other hand, has an alchemical touch. It's as if he can't help but transmute whatever he touches into something better. He's the rare sort of writer who can bend genres to his whims. (how she ended up in the Matrix, I have no idea). That one's easy, actually. We saw a version of her helping the Doctor and Susan escape. It's not too much of a stretch to think that her actions were discovered by the Timelords. This treason might well lead, I think, to her ability to regenerate being suspended. Then, when she died, her consciousness was placed, as is Timelord custom, in the Matrix.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2016 9:00:22 GMT
"Which reminds me: The Ancestor Cell's giant bone edifice, tied intricately to the Doctor's destiny, appearing above Gallifrey on the eve of the War was originally Miles' idea, although the particulars were different. He was less than happy with Cole and Angelhides' appropriation of it. Though to be fair to Mr. Cole, it was originally pitched to him as part of a huge PDA arc showing Gallifrey at various stages of the War, so it's possible that he forgot about it and then remembered it without realizing where it came from. If nothing else, it seems awfully stupid of him to so blatantly nick it, especially when he paid precious little heed to the rest of Miles' vision (especially the identities of Grandfather Paradox and the Enemy. What a terrible shame that particular view into the war was kicked to the gutter and shot twice in the head, I'd have loved to see it fully realised. Then again, I suppose it was in the form of The Book of the War and other Faction Paradox texts. I thought the Edifice felt a little bit out of place in The Ancestor Cell, even for a story that seemed to revolve around its presence above Gallifrey. Those frothing megalomaniacal madmen weren't the Faction, they lacked their subtlety and demonstrated a brutishness that just doesn't fit their scavenging nature. I'm more inclined to believe Lance Parkin's take on Grandfather Paradox myself and the Enemy I thought were inextricably linked to what happened with the Yssgaroth, a hostile form of history that threatened to override the main timeline. That's probably the best instance of the Doctor angsting over his mortality (something Alien Bodies isn't interested in, for obvious reasons) that I can think of. Briggs plays it magnificently. "First the dead walk, and now they swim! I'll leave before it does the hornpipe!" It's a real shame that the BF Minuet in Hell went so pear-shaped. Alan Lear would have been a wonderful addition to the writers' stable. And he died in 2008, so his talent, alas, will go all too-underappreciated. Especially considering that the original Minuet in Hell was far superior in both atmosphere and content to its remade counterpart. Between Cloud of Fear, Minuet in Hell, Enclave Irrelative and especially Planet of Lies, he left a sterling bibliography and was one of the great pillars that turned the Nick Briggs incarnation into my all-time favourite Doctor across all mediums -- canon and non-canon. Briggs himself would even use ideas from Planet of Lies for his revision of The Mutant Phase and the Dalek Empire series. The AVs really are some of the best stories I've ever experienced for Doctor Who, they weren't afraid to push boundaries by having the Doctor suffer withdrawal from being spiked with drugs, face his mortality, battle for his continued sanity, his companions snatched away without explanation and have his entire life obliterated, only for him to be hounded by a creature that wishes for nothing less than to see him suffer. He lead a very, very full life in those four seasons. Endurance (the unseen prequel to Big Finish's Frozen Time) stands out as my favourite behind Planet of Lies; a wonderful pastiche of H.P. Lovecraft and a Silurian city in the Antarctic makes perfect sense. (how she ended up in the Matrix, I have no idea). That one's easy, actually. We saw a version of her helping the Doctor and Susan escape. It's not too much of a stretch to think that her actions were discovered by the Timelords. This treason might well lead, I think, to her ability to regenerate being suspended. Then, when she died, her consciousness was placed, as is Timelord custom, in the Matrix. Excellent theory. It also fits with two of the three Claras being wiped out by unrelated causes, I think the Web of Time (or what's left of it now) has it in for her.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on May 23, 2016 11:10:42 GMT
So who did Miles originally plan to be GrandFather Paradox? (I know who he originally planned to be the Enemy btw ). Wasn't there something about a Black Hole or Star thing that was never picked up on as well?
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Post by Ela on May 23, 2016 15:26:38 GMT
Miles, on the other hand, has an alchemical touch. It's as if he can't help but transmute whatever he touches into something better. He's the rare sort of writer who can bend genres to his whims. I haven't find Miles' stories in the Who universe that compelling honestly. He's too much work to understand and his books have not been among my favorites from the Doctor Who and Benny series.
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Post by icecreamdf on May 23, 2016 19:10:16 GMT
After watching Planet of the Spiders, I understood why the Doctor's appearance changed in The Tenth Planet.
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Post by Ela on May 23, 2016 19:21:16 GMT
After watching Planet of the Spiders, I understood why the Doctor's appearance changed in The Tenth Planet. Wait! It took you that long to realize? Or did you not watch them in order?
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Post by christmastrenzalore on May 23, 2016 21:43:17 GMT
The Doctor met Sarah Jane in his Fifth incarnation. And in school reunion, he mentioned he had regenerated 6 times since they last met. Not taking that encounter into consideration as she had no recollection of it, as was probably the original intent? Or one of the few people he trusts enough to be subconsciously honest with about his shamed incarnation?
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Post by icecreamdf on May 23, 2016 21:55:16 GMT
After watching Planet of the Spiders, I understood why the Doctor's appearance changed in The Tenth Planet. Wait! It took you that long to realize? Or did you not watch them in order? Well, they never explained regeneration until then. In Power of the Daleks it was just a function of the TARDIS or something, and the Doctor wasn't explicitly killed, and in The War Games the Time Lords didn't explain how they were changing his appearance.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on May 23, 2016 22:10:57 GMT
So who did Miles originally plan to be GrandFather Paradox? (I know who he originally planned to be the Enemy btw ). Wasn't there something about a Black Hole or Star thing that was never picked up on as well? PM please. As much fun as it has been to speculate these last 20 odd years, I'd like to know his intention.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on May 23, 2016 22:12:11 GMT
The Doctor met Sarah Jane in his Fifth incarnation. And in school reunion, he mentioned he had regenerated 6 times since they last met. Not taking that encounter into consideration as she had no recollection of it, as was probably the original intent? Or one of the few people he trusts enough to be subconsciously honest with about his shamed incarnation? Ohh I like that.
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Post by Ela on May 23, 2016 22:32:38 GMT
Wait! It took you that long to realize? Or did you not watch them in order? Well, they never explained regeneration until then. In Power of the Daleks it was just a function of the TARDIS or something, and the Doctor wasn't explicitly killed, and in The War Games the Time Lords didn't explain how they were changing his appearance. Hmm, okay.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 1:00:42 GMT
So who did Miles originally plan to be GrandFather Paradox? (I know who he originally planned to be the Enemy btw ). Wasn't there something about a Black Hole or Star thing that was never picked up on as well? PM please. As much fun as it has been to speculate these last 20 odd years, I'd like to know his intention. Me too please. I'm probably way off the mark. Miles, on the other hand, has an alchemical touch. It's as if he can't help but transmute whatever he touches into something better. He's the rare sort of writer who can bend genres to his whims. I haven't find Miles' stories in the Who universe that compelling honestly. He's too much work to understand and his books have not been among my favorites from the Doctor Who and Benny series. Aww, not even Dead Romance?
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