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Post by icecreamdf on May 27, 2016 22:37:06 GMT
I don't think Utopia could be told without Jack. Never mind the scene explaining what the hell happened to him, having him there serves a greater purpose in demonstrating humanity's need for survival (which is basically the point of the entire story until Yana feels like checking the time is suddenly important). Besides, it you want to argue narrative reasons for a Jack return then there's two big ones that haven't yet been explored - how Jack becomes the Face of Boe and the missing two years. The Face of Boe is implied to just be old age, and the missing years are being explored in the comics. Besides, Moffat would still need to come up with a good story to explore either of those. I would rather he brought Jack back because he had an amazing story tomtell with him, then have him write a Jack story just because the fans want Jack back.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on May 27, 2016 22:42:06 GMT
Besides, it you want to argue narrative reasons for a Jack return then there's two big ones that haven't yet been explored - how Jack becomes the Face of Boe and the missing two years. The Face of Boe is implied to just be old age, and the missing years are being explored in the comics. Besides, Moffat would still need to come up with a good story to explore either of those. I would rather he brought Jack back because he had an amazing story tomtell with him, then have him write a Jack story just because the fans want Jack back. How Jack becomes the Face of Boe IS an amazing story! So are the missing two years. There's so many things they could do with either of those. Anything could have happened in those two years and just because the comics are doing them doesn't mean it can't still be done on TV. They can veto the comics in Cardiff if they're too similar to stories planned for Doctor Who but maybe they're not and there's still a lot of the two years that won't be explored in the comics? We can all certainly hope.
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Post by jasonward on May 27, 2016 22:52:40 GMT
How Jack becomes the Face of Boe IS an amazing story! No, no it's not. It could be, I'd love it to be, but if the story is Jack in a drunken walk home (whilst living on planet zog) fell into some alien goo accidentally spilt by some cleaners and transforms into the Face of Boe, then... damp squib of a story. The idea, is not in of itself a good story, a good story is way more than an idea.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on May 27, 2016 23:24:27 GMT
How Jack becomes the Face of Boe IS an amazing story! No, no it's not. It could be, I'd love it to be, but if the story is Jack in a drunken walk home (whilst living on planet zog) fell into some alien goo accidentally spilt by some cleaners and transforms into the Face of Boe, then... damp squib of a story. The idea, is not in of itself a good story, a good story is way more than an idea. Falling into alien goo would be a terrible reason for Jack as the Face of Boe but that's why you would start with the character of Jack first and 'What if [insert awesome idea here] resulted in Jack becoming the Face of Boe?'. Story comes from character; if Moffat wants to bring Jack back, then he would start with Jack and work from there on a narrative around him for an episode.
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Post by jasonward on May 27, 2016 23:35:26 GMT
Jacking falling over on a drunken walk homes fits Jack perfectly I would say, it fits your template, although not an awesome idea. But as I say, its not the idea that is a great story, even an awesome idea is not a great story, and even naff ideas can be made into great stories.
"Boy meets girl" is about as naff an idea as they get, but many great stories have been written around it.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on May 28, 2016 9:43:51 GMT
Jacking falling over on a drunken walk homes fits Jack perfectly I would say Nobody would do that though because it would look stupid onscreen and I can't imagine why Moffat would start with the character of Jack and decide from there on alien goo.
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Post by jasonward on May 28, 2016 11:12:09 GMT
Jacking falling over on a drunken walk homes fits Jack perfectly I would say Nobody would do that though because it would look stupid onscreen and I can't imagine why Moffat would start with the character of Jack and decide from there on alien goo. You just need to use your imagination: Why is Jack currently living on the planet Zog? Why is he drunk? Why is he walking home? What is the goo? Where did it come from? How come the cleaners drop the goo? You can delve deeper and deeper into each of these elements, perhaps the cleaning crew is in fact deep cover for a criminal gang, and the goo part of an illegal genetics operation they run. Jack is on Zog using a alias on the run from an evil corporation that want to see him dead and say they know how. He's drunk because his life is going badly, feeling sorry for himself, on the run, hiding and dealing with the recent loss of his lover who was killed in a traffic accident. He's walking home because he has no money, he has no money because someone picked his pocket as he left the bar. As you see these events unfold, the Doctor is seen apparently looking into what looks like the large scale farming of an entire race of intelligent humanoids, as the story unfolds it starts to become clear that this farming is producing a goo which is being shipped off around the galaxy and fed into the food and water cycles of many planets. And now we see that the Goo jack fell into was the same goo, and that the company making the goo is the same company that is after Jack and cleanup crew works for that company and normally puts teh goo into the water supply at pumping station they are contracted to clean. And now we see the pick pocketing was not accidental either and that he didnt fall, he was tripped all in careful plan by the criminals/evil corporate. The Doctor in a bid to understand whats going off with the Goo follows a shipment to the planet Zog and follows a cleaning crew that picks some up, and watches as they "accidently" spill some on the road, and to his horror see's Jack fall into it, rushing over to Jack the Doctor notes that the Goo is attacking Jack on a genetic and time something or other level trying to destroy him, rot him, as Jack starts to hurt and convulse The Doctor desperately tries to save him, reverse the effect, but all he can do is keep the swollen head and internal organs alive, Jack transformation to The Face Of Boe is well underway. Yada yada yada, I came up with that literally as I typed, the story has holes, and I'm sure if someone were ever to turn it into a script things would change, but my point is an idea is not a story, and you can spin a story from nothing but an idea, and the idea really has no bearing on how good or bad the story is. EDIT: lol at me, I'm getting quite into this story now, imagining how it could be told, filling the in gaps etc, oh well
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Post by acousticwolf on May 28, 2016 13:01:23 GMT
^^ Add the Seventh Doctor (as the mastermind behind it all) and you could have your Short Trips entry Cheers Tony
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on May 28, 2016 13:32:13 GMT
Nobody would do that though because it would look stupid onscreen and I can't imagine why Moffat would start with the character of Jack and decide from there on alien goo. You just need to use your imagination: I know that. It's just random. The alien goo would have to come from somewhere. It would have to mean something. You can't just have alien goo. If there's no meaning behind it, then why are we supposed to care? There has to be something you're trying to say. Plus falling in alien goo would still look stupid onscreen.
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Post by icecreamdf on May 28, 2016 15:46:19 GMT
You just need to use your imagination: Plus falling in alien goo would still look stupid onscreen. Hey, what are you talking about. Haven't you seen the TNG episode where Tasha dies...Actually you're right. It would look stupid.
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Post by constonks on May 29, 2016 4:36:54 GMT
The conversation really makes me think that RTD's intention was that Jack would just naturally age into the Face of Boe... somehow.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on May 29, 2016 16:52:02 GMT
The conversation really makes me think that RTD's intention was that Jack would just naturally age into the Face of Boe... somehow. I think RTD said in an interview somewhere he wrote it as a joke. It's too good an idea to be hand-waved away as one though.
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Post by SG. on May 29, 2016 17:32:35 GMT
The conversation really makes me think that RTD's intention was that Jack would just naturally age into the Face of Boe... somehow. I think RTD said in an interview somewhere he wrote it as a joke. It's too good an idea to be hand-waved away as one though. Moffat was going to include him in A Good Man Goes to War where he'd get his head cut off by the Headless Monks, but his head would stay alive, hence... the Face of Boe. I think it's better as one of those things that isn't explained though.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on May 29, 2016 17:57:35 GMT
I think RTD said in an interview somewhere he wrote it as a joke. It's too good an idea to be hand-waved away as one though. Moffat was going to include him in A Good Man Goes to War where he'd get his head cut off by the Headless Monks, but his head would stay alive, hence... the Face of Boe. I think it's better as one of those things that isn't explained though. I half agree and half disagree. It doesn't need to be explained but at the same time a part of me would love to see Jack become the Face of Boe.
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Post by constonks on May 29, 2016 18:50:20 GMT
I think RTD said in an interview somewhere he wrote it as a joke. It's too good an idea to be hand-waved away as one though. Moffat was going to include him in A Good Man Goes to War where he'd get his head cut off by the Headless Monks, but his head would stay alive, hence... the Face of Boe. I think it's better as one of those things that isn't explained though. Does that have a source? I mean I've heard the Jack-in-AGMGTW thing before but did Moffat himself say the Boe thing? It could be cool to see Jack show up in a distant century, looking about a hundred and fifty and having some of the Boeface markings though.
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Post by Ela on May 29, 2016 18:50:54 GMT
I don't know that I really need to see it happen, but the Headless Monks idea is as good an explanation as any.
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Post by SG. on May 29, 2016 18:56:56 GMT
Moffat was going to include him in A Good Man Goes to War where he'd get his head cut off by the Headless Monks, but his head would stay alive, hence... the Face of Boe. I think it's better as one of those things that isn't explained though. Does that have a source? I mean I've heard the Jack-in-AGMGTW thing before but did Moffat himself say the Boe thing? Now that I've checked, I may have made up the Boe thing. I'm sure I can remember someone saying it though.
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Post by constonks on May 29, 2016 18:59:16 GMT
Does that have a source? I mean I've heard the Jack-in-AGMGTW thing before but did Moffat himself say the Boe thing? Now that I've checked, I may have made up the Boe thing. I'm sure I can remember someone saying it though. I found an old post online that speculated it, but no definitive Moffatspeak about it.
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Post by seeley on May 29, 2016 19:04:07 GMT
The conversation really makes me think that RTD's intention was that Jack would just naturally age into the Face of Boe... somehow. I think RTD said in an interview somewhere he wrote it as a joke. On one hand, that seems like something Davies would do (witness the Doctor's remark about regeneration in "Death of the Doctor.") On the other hand, Gridlock rather seems to imply otherwise. Note that, Cassandra being dead and the human-clones from "New Earth" probably having perished by the virus, Jack would indeed be the last human. Of course, that's hardly the only way of reading the scene, and there is the not insignificant matter of how the humans in "Utopia" came about (but then, they could be hybrids.)
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Post by icecreamdf on May 29, 2016 20:42:10 GMT
I think RTD said in an interview somewhere he wrote it as a joke. On one hand, that seems like something Davies would do (witness the Doctor's remark about regeneration in "Death of the Doctor.") On the other hand, Gridlock rather seems to imply otherwise. Note that, Cassandra being dead and the human-clones from "New Earth" probably having perished by the virus, Jack would indeed be the last human. Of course, that's hardly the only way of reading the scene, and there is the not insignificant matter of how the humans in "Utopia" came about (but then, they could be hybrids.) I always assumed that all of the Human looking characters in Gridlock were descended from the New Earth clones. The clones could still be considered a seperate race though.
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