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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 5, 2016 17:23:00 GMT
Many fans think that Moffats writing was better when he wrote for RTD. He wrote less then! Its certainly getting worse! I seriously don't think it was because he was writing less. (Plus he was writing a lot other things as well.) I think he writes better when there is someone else editing his work and keeping the arcs from becoming the unwieldy beasts that they sometimes become. But I don't think a writer should ever stop writing, or write less to please other people. If he spent more time on fewer scripts he may get things right.
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Post by Ela on Jul 5, 2016 18:38:06 GMT
This just seems like a thread to allow for some intense Moffat-bashing. I think the refutation of just about every positive point made about Moffat in this thread is proving Elkawho's point. I really have an aversion to these types of thread for that reason.
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Post by elkawho on Jul 5, 2016 20:08:01 GMT
paulmorris7777 I have a very earnest question to ask you. Did you watch the new series when it first started? If you did, when you were watching back then when it was still, well, new, was there ANYTHING that you liked? Before the names RTD and Moffat caused the knee-jerk reaction that happens now, what were your thoughts on, let's say, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances? No romance (unless, of course you call Jack and Rose dancing romance), no pesky family involvement, no super-companion, and a story that took it's time and allowed it's characters to develop (about the same length as a 4-part classic Who story). Just The Doctor trying to figure out how to solve the problem and help as many people as he can. Did you find anything redeemable in those 2 episodes?
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 5, 2016 20:30:44 GMT
paulmorris7777 I have a very earnest question to ask you. Did you watch the new series when it first started? If you did, when you were watching back then when it was still, well, new, was there ANYTHING that you liked? Before the names RTD and Moffat caused the knee-jerk reaction that happens now, what were your thoughts on, let's say, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances? No romance (unless, of course you call Jack and Rose dancing romance), no pesky family involvement, no super-companion, and a story that took it's time and allowed it's characters to develop (about the same length as a 4-part classic Who story). Just The Doctor trying to figure out how to solve the problem and help as many people as he can. Did you find anything redeemable in those 2 episodes? I sat with my finger on the record button of my VHS machine, back in 2005. I stopped recording after three episodes, but continued to watch. Most of the time, I just glared at the tv, asking myself, "What was going on?" "Why is it so slow"? In Rose, they spent far too much time with Rose and her family before Eccleston turned up. And, what was he wearing when he did turn up? A leather jacket!!! Doctor Who should be about travelling in time and space, but they kept returning to Earth and Rose's family. Rose did turn into a super-companion when she absorbed the Heart of TARDIS, or whatever it was called. I didn't see the point of casting Richard Wilson as he had a gas mask stuck to his face for most of the time. Farting aliens and a companion in Captain Jack who wanted to shag everyone weren't good pointers. The addition of Big Brother, The Weakest Link and What Not to Wear really "domesticated" Doctor Who. I always felt that DW was in a parallel universe, just slightly out of sync. You also have Adam in The Long Game stealing technology - so, the Doctor dumps him back on present day Earth. Whilst, in the next episode, Fathers Day, Rose prevents the death of her Father, and at the end - nothing! Nothing happens to her. So, one rule for Adam, and another for Rose. Very inconsistent! You also have the pig in Aliens of London - pretty poor idea. And what about Mickey, thick as, you know what, and he's able to hack into a computer system and fire a weapon at number 10. The Bad Wolf arc was pretty lame. I've still not worked out how or who was able to leave the hidden messages through time. And, that's just series One.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Jul 5, 2016 20:36:35 GMT
'Rose' and series 1 as a whole were clearly written as a soft reboot, largely designed to appeal to a new, more family orientated audience than the Classic series was in its later years, and although in retrospect I have my issues with Series 1 it clearly must have been doing something right as it hooked millions of old and new viewers (including me) alike from the very first episode, if it wasn't for RTD updating the tone and role of the companion for a modern audience it could have died straight away, and quite a few viewers would have never discovered the broader Who universe including Big Finish (again including me)...
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Post by icecreamdf on Jul 5, 2016 20:37:50 GMT
paulmorris7777 I have a very earnest question to ask you. Did you watch the new series when it first started? If you did, when you were watching back then when it was still, well, new, was there ANYTHING that you liked? Before the names RTD and Moffat caused the knee-jerk reaction that happens now, what were your thoughts on, let's say, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances? No romance (unless, of course you call Jack and Rose dancing romance), no pesky family involvement, no super-companion, and a story that took it's time and allowed it's characters to develop (about the same length as a 4-part classic Who story). Just The Doctor trying to figure out how to solve the problem and help as many people as he can. Did you find anything redeemable in those 2 episodes? I sat with my finger on the record button of my VHS machine, back in 2005. I stopped recording after three episodes, but continued to watch. Most of the time, I just glared at the tv, asking myself, "What was going on?" "Why is it so slow"? In Rose, they spent far too much time with Rose and her family before Eccleston turned up. And, what was he wearing when he did turn up? A leather jacket!!! Doctor Who should be about travelling in time and space, but they kept returning to Earth and Rose's family. Rose did turn into a super-companion when she absorbed the Heart of TARDIS, or whatever it was called. I didn't see the point of casting Richard Wilson as he had a gas mask stuck to his face for most of the time. Farting aliens and a companion in Captain Jack who wanted to shag everyone weren't good pointers. The addition of Big Brother, The Weakest Link and What Not to Wear really "domesticated" Doctor Who. I always felt that DW was in a parallel universe, just slightly out of sync. You also have Adam in The Long Game stealing technology - so, the Doctor dumps him back on present day Earth. Whilst, in the next episode, Fathers Day, Rose prevents the death of her Father, and at the end - nothing! Nothing happens to her. So, one rule for Adam, and another for Rose. Very inconsistent! You also have the pig in Aliens of London - pretty poor idea. And what about Mickey, thick as, you know what, and he's able to hack into a computer system and fire a weapon at number 10. The Bad Wolf arc was pretty lame. I've still not worked out how or who was able to leave the hidden messages through time. And, that's just series One. Rose left the Bad Wolf messages after she absorbed the heart of the TARDIS.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 5, 2016 20:41:01 GMT
'Rose' and series 1 as a whole were clearly written as a soft reboot, largely designed to appeal to a new, more family orientated audience than the Classic series was in its later years, and although in retrospect I have my issues with Series 1 it clearly must have been doing something right as it hooked millions of old and new viewers (including me) alike from the very first episode, if it wasn't for RTD updating the tone and role of the companion for a modern audience it could have died straight away, and quite a few viewers would have never discovered the broader Who universe including Big Finish (again including me)... What do you mean by "more family orientated audience", "updating the tone and role of the companion"? You also have to remember Big Finish started in 1996, adapting New Adventure, and in 1999 they produced The Sirens of Time. Six years before NuWho.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 5, 2016 20:44:46 GMT
I sat with my finger on the record button of my VHS machine, back in 2005. I stopped recording after three episodes, but continued to watch. Most of the time, I just glared at the tv, asking myself, "What was going on?" "Why is it so slow"? In Rose, they spent far too much time with Rose and her family before Eccleston turned up. And, what was he wearing when he did turn up? A leather jacket!!! Doctor Who should be about travelling in time and space, but they kept returning to Earth and Rose's family. Rose did turn into a super-companion when she absorbed the Heart of TARDIS, or whatever it was called. I didn't see the point of casting Richard Wilson as he had a gas mask stuck to his face for most of the time. Farting aliens and a companion in Captain Jack who wanted to shag everyone weren't good pointers. The addition of Big Brother, The Weakest Link and What Not to Wear really "domesticated" Doctor Who. I always felt that DW was in a parallel universe, just slightly out of sync. You also have Adam in The Long Game stealing technology - so, the Doctor dumps him back on present day Earth. Whilst, in the next episode, Fathers Day, Rose prevents the death of her Father, and at the end - nothing! Nothing happens to her. So, one rule for Adam, and another for Rose. Very inconsistent! You also have the pig in Aliens of London - pretty poor idea. And what about Mickey, thick as, you know what, and he's able to hack into a computer system and fire a weapon at number 10. The Bad Wolf arc was pretty lame. I've still not worked out how or who was able to leave the hidden messages through time. And, that's just series One. Rose left the Bad Wolf messages after she absorbed the heart of the TARDIS. How?
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Post by mark687 on Jul 5, 2016 20:54:08 GMT
Rose left the Bad Wolf messages after she absorbed the heart of the TARDIS. How?
She took the name of the corporation the Daleks were hiding behind to stage their invasion/conversation of Earth in the future,and spread it throughout the Vortex while she was part of it so instances of the phrase Bad Wolf kept occurring as a warning/clue to her and the Doctor wherever/whenever they went.
Regards
mark687
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 5, 2016 21:05:41 GMT
She took the name of the corporation the Daleks were hiding behind to stage their invasion/conversation of Earth in the future,and spread it throughout the Vortex while she was part of it so instances of the phrase Bad Wolf kept occurring as a warning/clue to her and the Doctor wherever/whenever they went.
Regards
mark687
I'm sorry but that episodes a nonsense.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 21:08:24 GMT
She took the name of the corporation the Daleks were hiding behind to stage their invasion/conversation of Earth in the future,and spread it throughout the Vortex while she was part of it so instances of the phrase Bad Wolf kept occurring as a warning/clue to her and the Doctor wherever/whenever they went.
Regards
mark687
I'm sorry but that episodes a nonsense. Think of it as mimesis. Bad Wolf is a meme created by a combination of both Rose and the TARDIS's consciousnesses. It's an idea that feels almost like a bit of overflow from the Faction Paradox range where you can have sentient ideas.
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Post by mark687 on Jul 5, 2016 21:12:10 GMT
She took the name of the corporation the Daleks were hiding behind to stage their invasion/conversation of Earth in the future,and spread it throughout the Vortex while she was part of it so instances of the phrase Bad Wolf kept occurring as a warning/clue to her and the Doctor wherever/whenever they went.
Regards
mark687
I'm sorry but that episodes a nonsense. In your opinion
Kind Regards
mark687
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Post by elkawho on Jul 5, 2016 21:25:09 GMT
paulmorris7777 I have a very earnest question to ask you. Did you watch the new series when it first started? If you did, when you were watching back then when it was still, well, new, was there ANYTHING that you liked? Before the names RTD and Moffat caused the knee-jerk reaction that happens now, what were your thoughts on, let's say, The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances? No romance (unless, of course you call Jack and Rose dancing romance), no pesky family involvement, no super-companion, and a story that took it's time and allowed it's characters to develop (about the same length as a 4-part classic Who story). Just The Doctor trying to figure out how to solve the problem and help as many people as he can. Did you find anything redeemable in those 2 episodes? I sat with my finger on the record button of my VHS machine, back in 2005. I stopped recording after three episodes, but continued to watch. Most of the time, I just glared at the tv, asking myself, "What was going on?" "Why is it so slow"? In Rose, they spent far too much time with Rose and her family before Eccleston turned up. And, what was he wearing when he did turn up? A leather jacket!!! Doctor Who should be about travelling in time and space, but they kept returning to Earth and Rose's family. Rose did turn into a super-companion when she absorbed the Heart of TARDIS, or whatever it was called. I didn't see the point of casting Richard Wilson as he had a gas mask stuck to his face for most of the time. Farting aliens and a companion in Captain Jack who wanted to shag everyone weren't good pointers. The addition of Big Brother, The Weakest Link and What Not to Wear really "domesticated" Doctor Who. I always felt that DW was in a parallel universe, just slightly out of sync. You also have Adam in The Long Game stealing technology - so, the Doctor dumps him back on present day Earth. Whilst, in the next episode, Fathers Day, Rose prevents the death of her Father, and at the end - nothing! Nothing happens to her. So, one rule for Adam, and another for Rose. Very inconsistent! You also have the pig in Aliens of London - pretty poor idea. And what about Mickey, thick as, you know what, and he's able to hack into a computer system and fire a weapon at number 10. The Bad Wolf arc was pretty lame. I've still not worked out how or who was able to leave the hidden messages through time. And, that's just series One. Ahh, but I didn't ask what you didn't like. I know that you don't like most of it. I asked if there was ANYTHING that you liked. I chose The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances for a number of reasons. One, well, Moffat. But also it does seem the most classic-like episode of the season. Yes, Jack turns into a big flirt later on, but in that episode he's just a charismatic con-man. Not too unlike Glitz in the classic series. Rose has yet to become the Bad Wolf, and makes a bunch of mistakes in this one. To the point that she's hanging off a Zeppelin. So the question is, was there anything you LIKED?
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 5, 2016 21:29:27 GMT
I sat with my finger on the record button of my VHS machine, back in 2005. I stopped recording after three episodes, but continued to watch. Most of the time, I just glared at the tv, asking myself, "What was going on?" "Why is it so slow"? In Rose, they spent far too much time with Rose and her family before Eccleston turned up. And, what was he wearing when he did turn up? A leather jacket!!! Doctor Who should be about travelling in time and space, but they kept returning to Earth and Rose's family. Rose did turn into a super-companion when she absorbed the Heart of TARDIS, or whatever it was called. I didn't see the point of casting Richard Wilson as he had a gas mask stuck to his face for most of the time. Farting aliens and a companion in Captain Jack who wanted to shag everyone weren't good pointers. The addition of Big Brother, The Weakest Link and What Not to Wear really "domesticated" Doctor Who. I always felt that DW was in a parallel universe, just slightly out of sync. You also have Adam in The Long Game stealing technology - so, the Doctor dumps him back on present day Earth. Whilst, in the next episode, Fathers Day, Rose prevents the death of her Father, and at the end - nothing! Nothing happens to her. So, one rule for Adam, and another for Rose. Very inconsistent! You also have the pig in Aliens of London - pretty poor idea. And what about Mickey, thick as, you know what, and he's able to hack into a computer system and fire a weapon at number 10. The Bad Wolf arc was pretty lame. I've still not worked out how or who was able to leave the hidden messages through time. And, that's just series One. Ahh, but I didn't ask what you didn't like. I know that you don't like most of it. I asked if there was ANYTHING that you liked. I chose The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances for a number of reasons. One, well, Moffat. But also it does seem the most classic-like episode of the season. Yes, Jack turns into a big flirt later on, but in that episode he's just a charismatic con-man. Not too unlike Glitz in the classic series. Rose has yet to become the Bad Wolf, and makes a bunch of mistakes in this one. To the point that she's hanging off a Zeppelin. So the question is, was there anything you LIKED? The TARDIS sound effect was fine. I take it you disagree with everything I wrote?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2016 21:51:37 GMT
I chose The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances for a number of reasons. One, well, Moffat. But also it does seem the most classic-like episode of the season. Yes, Jack turns into a big flirt later on, but in that episode he's just a charismatic con-man. Not too unlike Glitz in the classic series. One of my favourite discoveries peeling through the first year of NuWho's production was the initial description for Jack Harkness as something along the lines of "the jawline of Dan Dare, the smile of a bastard". Funny when you consider he's closer to a gritty Captain Scarlet by the time of Torchwood, it's interesting to see how characterisation marches on in the interim.
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Post by elkawho on Jul 5, 2016 22:42:01 GMT
Ahh, but I didn't ask what you didn't like. I know that you don't like most of it. I asked if there was ANYTHING that you liked. I chose The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances for a number of reasons. One, well, Moffat. But also it does seem the most classic-like episode of the season. Yes, Jack turns into a big flirt later on, but in that episode he's just a charismatic con-man. Not too unlike Glitz in the classic series. Rose has yet to become the Bad Wolf, and makes a bunch of mistakes in this one. To the point that she's hanging off a Zeppelin. So the question is, was there anything you LIKED? The TARDIS sound effect was fine. I take it you disagree with everything I wrote? Believe it or not, no. I don't disagree with everything you wrote, but I disagree with most of it. But I didn't know anything about classic Who when I started watching the series. And I was watching it with a small child at the time. I thought it was wonderful. Fun. So the next question for you is, why do you persist on the negative? Why do you not post more the purely classic Who threads, of which I'm sure you have a lot to say, including a lot of positives? Why do you continue to push the negative on the threads about that which you hate? There should be enough in all 53 years of Who that we all can find some positive experiences.
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Post by relativetime on Jul 6, 2016 1:04:26 GMT
I think, in this instance, I'll choose Moffat. I have a LOT of respect for Robert Holmes and he has written some of my all-time favorite episodes of Doctor Who - Spearhead from Space, Pyramids of Mars, The Talons of Weng-Chiang (thought it has it's glaring problems...) and The Caves of Androzani.
But Moffat in this instance means a lot more to me as a fan, since I started watching Doctor Who from 2005 onwards and it was The Empty Child and The Doctor Dances that made me fall in love with this show. And as a showrunner, he may have faults, but I'm still enjoying the creativity and energy that he has always brought to the show.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Jul 6, 2016 6:37:10 GMT
The TARDIS sound effect was fine. I take it you disagree with everything I wrote? Believe it or not, no. I don't disagree with everything you wrote, but I disagree with most of it. But I didn't know anything about classic Who when I started watching the series. And I was watching it with a small child at the time. I thought it was wonderful. Fun. So the next question for you is, why do you persist on the negative? Why do you not post more the purely classic Who threads, of which I'm sure you have a lot to say, including a lot of positives? Why do you continue to push the negative on the threads about that which you hate? There should be enough in all 53 years of Who that we all can find some positive experiences. I persist because DW could be so much better. How many scenes were wasted with Clara being dropped off for school and her boyfriend? Those scenes deserved to be in EastEnders. DW isn't a soap. Its a thread in a 45 minute drama that isn't needed. Now, what did I say that you agreed with?
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Jul 6, 2016 9:11:07 GMT
Ahh, but I didn't ask what you didn't like. I know that you don't like most of it. I asked if there was ANYTHING that you liked. I chose The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances for a number of reasons. One, well, Moffat. But also it does seem the most classic-like episode of the season. Yes, Jack turns into a big flirt later on, but in that episode he's just a charismatic con-man. Not too unlike Glitz in the classic series. Rose has yet to become the Bad Wolf, and makes a bunch of mistakes in this one. To the point that she's hanging off a Zeppelin. So the question is, was there anything you LIKED? The TARDIS sound effect was fine. I take it you disagree with everything I wrote? I do. Pretty much. LOVE some of the stuff you hate. Some of that makes me beam with delight. Enjoying stuff is great. I enjoy it.
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bobod
Chancellery Guard
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Post by bobod on Jul 6, 2016 9:13:43 GMT
The TARDIS sound effect was fine. I take it you disagree with everything I wrote? Believe it or not, no. I don't disagree with everything you wrote, but I disagree with most of it. But I didn't know anything about classic Who when I started watching the series. And I was watching it with a small child at the time. I thought it was wonderful. Fun. So the next question for you is, why do you persist on the negative? Why do you not post more the purely classic Who threads, of which I'm sure you have a lot to say, including a lot of positives? Why do you continue to push the negative on the threads about that which you hate? There should be enough in all 53 years of Who that we all can find some positive experiences. This is also a 'off-topic' side forum in a forum about the audios. Do you listen to the audios? If not, what actually brought you here? A desire to spend all day writing about something you hate? There must be things you'd enjoy doing more. I'd hope.
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