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Post by acousticwolf on Oct 11, 2016 7:43:10 GMT
Did anyone else get the impression Lara was previously an ertze-companion for War? That some time in their past he tried to use her services/experiments (she's does say something about no one using her again). And I'd this the first time we've seen War do something that his previous incarnations wouldn't have done without absolutely last resort and a lot of hand wringing? There's definitely a story in there somewhere . You're right, this is War being "not quite the Doctor" and acting decisively without giving second chances ... I like it! Cheers
Tony
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Oct 11, 2016 10:04:13 GMT
I WANT to like this boxset, I really do. John Hurt is superb as always, as is the supporting cast; and the stories, while nothing groundbreaking, are solid adventure romps......perhaps? Or a Gallifrey: Time War boxset with Romana, Narvin et al? There's so much potential still out there, and just because these sets barely tapped that potential doesn't mean the opportunity isn't there for future releases. Really exactly what I was feeling too. However, within the context of not following through too hard with the Warrior concept or the weirdness of the Time War, at least they seem to have settled into a good flow, and aren't forcing the "I'm not the Doctor angle". There's a slight riff on it in the first story (underplayed just enough), but other than that, he just seems to be getting on with things, without constantly raving about how much of a monster he is. I think that would have soured the box-set.
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Post by Digi on Oct 11, 2016 13:40:04 GMT
I think it's now safe to assume that volume 4 will end with War heading off to Moldax or deciding "no more" I wouldn't think so, no. For one thing, that's already been depicted at the end of the novel Engines of War, and Nick Briggs did the audiobook reading for that. I don't think he'd greenlight a story that steps on his own toes; just doesn't make creative sense. For another thing, that would shut the door on potential future War Doctor releases, and I don't think that makes business sense.
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Post by Digi on Oct 11, 2016 13:45:27 GMT
One note on this particular set: I thought the Cold War setting was a bit wasted here. It was a good story, but it felt very rushed. There was a lot of scene setting and scenery chewing that was just not there because the story had to move at breakneck speed from scene to scene to scene.
Given that we're working with a limited number of 3-disc releases here I know that it's too much to hope for that single setting across all three stories. But I can imagine what might've been...
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Post by mrperson on Oct 12, 2016 15:54:34 GMT
But there's one complaint I have above all the others. I was prepared to let it slide after the first boxset, it started niggling we after the second but now that we're three quarters of the way through I can't see this being satisfyingly rectified by the end: the War Doctor is no different from any other incarnation of the Doctor. Yes, Day of the Doctor slightly pinned his character as a bit less serious than I would like off the bat, but we could work around that. Yes, the reputation he has in the eyes of his future incarnations stems mostly from the belief he destroyed Gallifrey, which we know he never did. But the War Doctor at his inception was intended, by the Eighth Doctor with the aid of the Sisterhood of Karn, to be a "warrior". Yet he spends the series acting on his own and only ever getting roped into directly serving the Time Lords by Ollistra and her lackeys. He's not a soldier, he's outright referred to as a civilian in this boxset. I'm not saying I want the Doctor mercilessly chainsawing Daleks with impunity Abslom Daak style, but a bit more callous, a bit less numb to his emotions. The Twelfth Doctors lets someone die in Into the Dalek and doesn't bat an eyelid. It's shocking, yes, but not wholly out of character. Yet the War Doctor, supposedly fighting a war for decades, can't let someone die without giving them a eulogy. One has to wonder that had the Seventh Doctor not stepped out onto the wrong street in San Francisco and lived to see the Time War, he'd probably have sorted the whole thing out in a matter of hours by the simple virtue of actually being somewhat morally dubious (though I am an unabashed Seventh Doctor fanboy, so this is definitely biased). I have generally agreed (though I still love John Hurt's performance). A few things always stuck out from me from the show. 1. Docs 9-11 referred in various places to having killed all the timelords (well, at least I distinctly remember 10 and 11 describing it and referring to themselves as "I"). 2. The various Doctors described the horrors of the Time War. 3. 11 referred to the War Doctor as "the one who fought in the Time War" 4. Even in Day, 10 and 11 were willing to press the button all over again, just before 11 realized a way out. All this told me that there was more bad to the War Doctor beyond merely using the Moment. If that's the only reason they didn't want to remember him, then why what explains their references to personally having killed all the Time War? Why would they say their reason for trying to hide that incarnation is that he was the one to fight in the Time War....if instead, it was only because he used the Moment that one time? Why would 8 ask to be made a "warrior" specifically and then just behave like the Doctor? I was actually hoping for a much more Full Fathom Five type incarnation. Yet throughout the Box Sets, he is very much The Doctor. He may be participating in the Time War, as in, not running away and hiding in the Land of Fiction until it's all over or something. But he's actively working to foil Time Lord plans, for the most part.
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Post by mrperson on Oct 12, 2016 15:55:42 GMT
I WANT to like this boxset, I really do. John Hurt is superb as always, as is the supporting cast; and the stories, while nothing groundbreaking, are solid adventure romps......perhaps? Or a Gallifrey: Time War boxset with Romana, Narvin et al? There's so much potential still out there, and just because these sets barely tapped that potential doesn't mean the opportunity isn't there for future releases. Really exactly what I was feeling too. However, within the context of not following through too hard with the Warrior concept or the weirdness of the Time War, at least they seem to have settled into a good flow, and aren't forcing the "I'm not the Doctor angle". There's a slight riff on it in the first story (underplayed just enough), but other than that, he just seems to be getting on with things, without constantly raving about how much of a monster he is. I think that would have soured the box-set. And that's the other thing: these sets opened with the War Doctor, well before use of the Moment, already seeing himself as a "monster". I'd been hoping to see the "why", if the show was going to go there at all.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Oct 13, 2016 7:37:43 GMT
Eye of Harmony would have to be the first "not 10 out of 10" story for me.
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Post by kimalysong on Oct 13, 2016 11:36:15 GMT
I enjoyed this boxset but perhaps not quite as much as the first two boxes but with that out of the way I will say I really enjoyed what I felt was the thematic presentation of this set of stories.
I did find it interesting that most of the characters that the Doctor is dealing with in this story has a sort of grayness or moral ambiguity to them. Or they are just nasty but maybe I mean you have a secret police officer, a human siding with the Daleks, and a Gallifreyan betraying her people to get her Grandfather back (though Heleyna just came off as a bit stupid believing the Daleks but she gave a great performance) , even the Sontarans . I feel all of these characters were representations of the worst aspects of War.
The only character who was genuinely a good person with strong values was Kalan who the Doctor couldn't save in the end. I know the Doctor has seen horrors before & lost people he loved. But Kalan didn't even seem to get a chance. He could have been a Companion if this was a different Doctor.
I feel if all the people above are the worst parts of War then Kalan was that small glimmer of hope that was snuffed out in the end.
I do wish there was more of the Secret Police Officer. I found him to be a complex character. When he told the Doctor about how he went to work but all the kids he taught were the same age as soldiers he fought was a really powerful moment for me. In that moment I could really emphasize with his character.
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Post by escalus5 on Oct 13, 2016 20:26:06 GMT
This was a disappointing listen.
Hurt is excellent and I love the War Doctor, but the character and his struggles are being pushed to the sidelines. There was very little in the way of interesting material in both Agents of Chaos and most of the previous box set (with the exception of Matt Fitton's ingenious story) that Hurt could sink his teeth into. In fact, I remember almost none of his dialogue in the entirety of Chaos outside of hackneyed observations and orders and directions to the other characters. Part of what I loved about Only the Monstrous (Vol. 1) was the focus on exploring the War Doctor and how other characters respond to him and his self-loathing and guilt. If he's lessened as a focal point and Hurt's presence becomes merely functional, the stories are rather boring. Which is what I think happened here.
I would also prefer it if one writer (preferably Briggs) took on all three parts to create something more thematically and stylistically unified.
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Post by barnabaslives on Oct 14, 2016 0:28:29 GMT
All this told me that there was more bad to the War Doctor beyond merely using the Moment. If that's the only reason they didn't want to remember him, then why what explains their references to personally having killed all the Time War? Why would they say their reason for trying to hide that incarnation is that he was the one to fight in the Time War....if instead, it was only because he used the Moment that one time? Why would 8 ask to be made a "warrior" specifically and then just behave like the Doctor? I'd be okay with wolfie53's suggestion that the Sisterhood of Karn may have given Eight a placebo. Personally, I'm still sort of expecting War to blow up more Daleks and with more gusto than Eleven, but I'd even be okay with the poetic irony if the War Doctor turned out to actually be less war-like than his successors. As I think others have said, what's really made him the War Doctor could be that for the first time, he may have to ignore the cries of people he would have ordinarily helped, in favor of the serving the "greater good" in the Time War. The main things making it seem to me like there should be more temporal carnage are, as you pointed out, there have been some references or at least allusions to the level of ugliness that the Time War eventually reaches, and that while I don't think I'm even opposed to the War Doctor acting as some sort of secret agent trying to keep dangerous things out of the wrong hands, we've had an immense amount of drama over the fact that stealth has not often always served The Doctor well. Even if I decided that War could simply the stealthiest, that the box sets starts with the results of stealth already having failed him again wants to suggest otherwise. Thus it's pretty easy to still imagine situations where the War Doctor is backed into a corner and if forced to come out fighting with grim determination at the ready, even if it will be the circumstances rather than the question of what is a War Doctor that will dictate his behavior then. I don't mean to sound like I'm disappointed with the set because I'm certainly not in the least, and I could well just be getting ahead of myself expecting him to be up to his neck in battle, if it's not really time for that yet.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Oct 14, 2016 18:02:47 GMT
My copy arrrived a few days ago, looking forward to listening to it, but I want to relisten to other first two first.
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Post by icecreamdf on Oct 15, 2016 4:47:51 GMT
My copy arrrived a few days ago, looking forward to listening to it, but I want to relisten to other first two first. Each boxset is pretty self contained. Apart from a couple of references, you don't hage to have heard the first two boxsets at all to follow this one.
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Post by eldersensorite on Oct 16, 2016 12:18:17 GMT
Now I have finally listened to the whole set, I agree with the people who think that the War Doctor should behave.... well a bit more like a warrior. I mean, there's nothing he does that his predecessors wouldn't do. He even was pleading not to kill the Sontarans. Not that I wish him to become a bloodthirsty killer but this is a unique incarnation whose successors are very afraid of. He is only more grumpy and more no-nonsense than previous and next selves, less flippant, but otherwise he behaves like the Doctor Yeah, it's an odd one... I don't WANT The Doctor to be some monstrous villain (and I understand the out-of-universe reason he can't) but I can't help feel that he should be more that way. I think the problem isn't the way he's written in these audios - he's exactly what you would expect from a Doctor in a war - but the way he was introduced in The Day Of The Doctor.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 5:55:03 GMT
It would have been very interesting if BF had started doing the WD box sets with him as a young man, as he was when he regenerated and end with him as the old, white haired man we saw on TV. A great amount of years seems to have passed for this incarnation and the interesting thing would be seeing him evolving in his morals , maybe behaving more like the Doctor at the beginning but growing tired of the war and having less qualms about getting things done I now picture the progression the other way round. War Doctor starts off as full-blown warrior buy by the time we reach these sets he's seen and done too much and is weary, getting closer to the moment when he can't take any more.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Oct 18, 2016 5:59:46 GMT
There's a line in (the rather excellent) Season of War, about someone who knew War throughout War's life, she liked the old man but was terrified of the young one. Maybe young War was the monster old War thought himself.
We have the War Doctor versus the Doctor of War. The former is a weapon of mass destruction the later is the Doctor, at war.
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Post by mrperson on Oct 19, 2016 2:33:22 GMT
There's a line in (the rather excellent) Season of War, about someone who knew War throughout War's life, she liked the old man but was terrified of the young one. Maybe young War was the monster old War thought himself. We have the War Doctor versus the Doctor of War. The former is a weapon of mass destruction the later is the Doctor, at war. I want to hear some of that earlier "Doctor", if at all the story goes there. "No good man is entirely good, and no bad man is entirely bad" (Mahabharata)
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Post by icecreamdf on Oct 19, 2016 13:37:57 GMT
I want to hear some of that earlier "Doctor", if at all the story goes there. "No good man is entirely good, and no bad man is entirely bad" (Mahabharata) Me too! I want stories set earlier on War's life. They just have to put young John's face on the covers They would probably need to recast him. I don't think it's possible to listen to John Hurt's voice and hear a young man.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Oct 23, 2016 9:37:18 GMT
This may have been me completely mishearing/misinterpreting her words (I was in a different room and I sometimes have hearing problems with one of my ears), but Jacqueline Pearce was on Pointless (a BBC Quiz show) yesterday(?) and mentioned she had done some audio Who stories with Hurt, If I heard things correctly she said (paraphrased) she had recorded Eight sets of stories with three or four to a boxset, in two different blocks, I might be completely wrong, but I was under the impression the first four boxsets were recorded in one block because of Hurt's illness, so does this confirm they have recorded a Second series of boxsets?
I'd assume this episode was recorded weeks or months ago so it might not be accurate, but the episode might be on BBC Iplayer if anyone wants to check.
I don't want to get anyone's hopes up and apologies it I was mistaken but I just thought I'd mention it.
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Oct 23, 2016 9:46:56 GMT
Chance would be a great thing. Maybe she's going to be in Gallifrey? Or but heads with McGann. Or werw going to get "the Ollistra Adventures"
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Oct 23, 2016 9:48:50 GMT
Chance would be a great thing. Maybe she's going to be in Gallifrey? Or but heads with McGann. Or werw going to get "the Ollistra Adventures" Isn't Ollistra already confirmed for the McGann Time War boxset, maybe she got confused and was referring to that if its been recorded already?
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