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Post by Ela on Sept 13, 2016 15:49:16 GMT
Why is the title of this thread in ALL CAPS? Just wondering.
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 13, 2016 17:18:36 GMT
Because BRIAN BLESSED is in my second favorite story arc from classic Who?
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
Likes: 5,677
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Post by shutupbanks on Sept 13, 2016 18:10:21 GMT
It creates links with previous stories and allows development of character and plot in a way that feels natural and not forced into the narrative. When it works, of course.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Sept 13, 2016 18:20:15 GMT
I just think it adds to the enjoyment of watching the show. You're trying to work out how it fits together, what the cracks in time could mean etc... It expands your imagination and makes the show feel more interactive. Encouraging you to be clever and observant. I agree, odd things like that can spark the imagination, and good arcs can be really great. Good arcs that I can think of in Who would be The Doctors on going struggles with the customs and politics of Galifrey, why is this a good arc? Because it's the very water the Doctor swims in, it informs and reflects his every decision and action, sometimes it's to the for and sometimes it's hardly present, but it is always present, any long time fan of the show always knows that in the back of The Doctors mind is a thought about what The Timelords think, might do etc This arc really does spark the imagination, it makes one wonder about The Doctors past, about who the Timelords are etc etc But bad arcs seem to be the mainstay. Random things happen in stories unrelated to the story and which largely go unnoticed by the protagonists, these random events add nothing to the story and removing them from the story would not diminish it in anyway, contrast that the "good arc" I identified above, where events inside that arc always add and inform even if subtly. Or arcs just trample on stories, adding a scene or disposition that makes no sense to host story. When it comes to Doctor Who, many arcs also fail to me because of the nature of the very show, which is why do so many arcs apparently follow The Doctor? Some make sense, Bad Wolf was Rose, so Rose was the thing being tracked, except why didn't it follow the whole of the time Rose spent with The Doctor? Where an arc is about or attached to The Doctor why does it seem centred on a specific part of his timeline? If someone is attempting to interact with The Doctor and isn't a Timelord themselves, then surely their interactions with him will happened randomly across his (The Doctor) timeline? In short arcs can be good, but all too often they don't make sense, are executed badly and individual writers either don't get it or find it bolted onto their story later (again contrast with the "good arc" above). To me the strongest arcs are from the new series. I thought Bad Wolf was excellent because it emphasised one of the main themes of the show: the idea of mystery and what's behind a name. What did Bad Wolf mean? Who is 'Bad Wolf'? etc... Harold Saxon was another good one because it was introduced way before it was a series arc and was occurring whilst the Doctor was oblivious to it on Earth. Martha knew about Saxon but for once the Doctor didn't know what was going on. Then there was the crack in time, which offered the fun of trying to spot the crack in each episode. That's exactly what that arc was: fun.
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Post by mrperson on Sept 13, 2016 18:53:24 GMT
I just think it adds to the enjoyment of watching the show. You're trying to work out how it fits together, what the cracks in time could mean etc... It expands your imagination and makes the show feel more interactive. Encouraging you to be clever and observant. That requires the arcs to make logical sense. The problem is that New Who arcs have always been of the "just accept it variety". S5: There are cracks in the universe. Ok, that's bad. Eventually we find out that the Doctor's exploding TARDIS caused them. (So now a single exploding TARDIS destroys the entire universe? Um. Ok. Minor problem 1.). How do we fix that? Fly the Pandorica, with the Doctor strapped in, because wibbly-wobbly this will be a "restoration field" that is "powered by" the exploding TARDIS rather than the Pandorica and/or the exposed Doctor simply being vaporized in the big-crunch-grade explosion. (Minor problem 2). Putting aside the nonsense inherent there, let's take a step back. So all the bad guys ever (who apparently now ALL have time travel) band together to trap the Doctor, having seen the cracks and assuming they're his fault. Their plan is to lock him away so that his TARDIS never explodes. HEY WAIT A MINUTE. Their plan is to create a causal paradox of the sort the show has been warning us about since first mentioning them? If they lock him away so his TARDIS doesn't blow, then there aren't cracks, then they don't have a reason to lock him away, so they don't lock him away, so his TARDIS does explode, so they do see the cracks, so the plan to lock him away so that his TARDIS never explodes. But if lock him away so his TARDIS doesn't blow, then there aren't cracks, then they don't have a reason to lock him away, so they don't lock him away, so his TARDIS does explode, so they do see the cracks, so the plan to lock him away so that his TARDIS never explodes. But if lock him away so his TARDIS doesn't blow, then there aren't cracks, then they don't have a reason to lock him away, so they don't lock him away, so his TARDIS does explode, so they do see the cracks, so the plan to lock him away so that his TARDIS never explodes.
....and ...so...on...forever.
So that's major problem 1.
And the other? Well, River said the nonsense about how throwing the Doctor at the big crunch would save everything, but she also said he'd be on the other side. But apparently, he can be saved from "the other side" (aka, not being in the universe) by Amy thinking about him. Because, what? Because cracks in her wall in a universe that never existed, due to the 'reboot'?
Major problem 2. It's just nonsense. "just accept it".
This why it's not fun: Moffatt asks you to pay really close attention so that you can enjoy fitting all the pieces together. But if you do what he wants, you end up with a pile rubbish. The odds and ends don't meet up. There's no internally consistent logic to it. It's just a bunch of stuff happening that's designed to impress you in the moment.
Edit: See also Whovitt's post on the top of P10 for a third major problem with Pandorica/BigBang.
notthebigfinishforum.freeforums.net/thread/1191/odd-unpopular-controversial-opinions-theories?page=10&scrollTo=51388
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Post by mrperson on Sept 13, 2016 19:03:46 GMT
Or, take Season 6.
So we've got the silence who blew up the TARDIS. But then the universe got rebooted. It's unclear whether they remember their plot from the universe that never was, but they are at least still trying to knock him off. But that's as far as it makes sense.
1. What is the "headless monks'" motivation for killing the Doctor? None. What is the motivation of the army/church people to kill him? Well, none (until they try to retcon in a reason in a throwaway line in Time of the Doctor, after the end of the next season). The reason given in S6 is that the Doctor uses words to fight people, not weapons.
And that makes them angry. I guess. Wow, that makes sense.
2. Fixed points in time cannot be rewritten! Or so we're told. By the end of Season 6, they CAN be re-written, but only if your cheat leaves it looking like the same thing always happened. Here, the Doctor being dead. No more word-warrior running around calling himself "the Doctor" and everything is fine.
2a. Somehow the Doctor and River kissing in broken-time brought them back to Silencio, un-did her non-shooting of the Doctor so that she could re-shoot Doctor-in-Teleselecta. Umm..ok. Just accept it, I guess. More nonsense.
2b. The marriage was irrelevant to everything. But I guess he needed to put that in because he'd been hinting that they were married for a while and wanted maybe one little tiny thing to not fall through the cracks into irrelevance. (Remember how River and the Doctor were supposed to be meeting in the wrong order, then that kinda....stopped happening?).
3. Except, #2 isn't true either. The most he does is erase his name from some enemy databanks. But then he keeps running around doing big things and calling himself the Doctor. This should have completely undid the fix from S6! A fixed point was rewritten and now everyone will know again. (Not that the fix ever made the slightest bit of sense anyway).
4. Season 7: There are many Clara-splinters because Clara dives into a broken rotting TARDIS, which apparently contains the Doctor's time stream (and didn't blow up the universe when it finally fell apart, because reasons. I guess TARDISes only destroy the universe upon breaking when the Silence blow them up, and then only if they're blown up on a certain Earth date. Because reasons). The time time stream is only there because the Doctor died on Trenazlore.
5. Season 8: Except #4 is complete garbage. The Doctor rewrites time again (naughty!) with the help of some regeneration energy from the timelords. Well who cares WHY, it means he never died on Trenzalore, so Clara never jumped into his time stream, so there aren't any Clara splinters to save him, and yadda yadda. Everything undone again. But ....hey who cares, they weren't going to cancel the show right? Just accept it.
5a. A single burst of excess regeneration energy can destroy an entire Dalek fleet. But somehow, the Timelords were too stupid to keep forcing regenerations of agents around Gallifrey and pumping them full of more energy, and thereby annihilating the entire Dalek invasion. Whoops! Silly Timelords.
5b. Oh, right. Now, after 2,000+ counted years and unknown uncounted thousands, on his 12th body and/or 14th regeneration, the Doctor suddenly wonders if he's a good man. Yep. Makes perfect sense.
Except no it doesn't. That's just stupid. And the conclusion that all that counts is if you try? That's supposed to be a realization? Hasn't the Doctor said that precise thing to other people X gazzilion times?
Blech! Vomit! Despair!
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Post by mrperson on Sept 13, 2016 19:07:04 GMT
Annnnnd then, Season 9. We're....looking for Gallifrey and waiting for Clara to die.
What's the big stink in season 9? The fact that the Time War was fought across all time and space. That means both Daleks and Timelords were fully capable of tracking eachother any place, any time, in the universe. The Daleks have recovered. We've seen fleets (Into the Dalek, Time of the Doctor, etc). We've even seen Skaro rebuilt and Davros as wilely as ever.
Gallifrey returns and nobody notices? (Major nonsense offense 1)
Gallifrey returns and we ignore that to saving bloody Clara? (Major offense 2).
It's the biggest damn thing to happen in the reboot, but it doesn't make a splash and is brushed to the side because Clara? Come on.
So that's why I don't like arcs. It's not that arcs are always bad. An arc can certainly improve a show, but only if it's done correctly. Plot arcs have never worked in New Who because the party responsible for writing them doesn't care about sticking the landing. He's great a building things up, but you are expected to go "ooooh" and "aaaahhhh" each episode, without trying to step back and consider how everything actually fits together.
Rant-essay complete.
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Post by mark687 on Sept 13, 2016 19:14:53 GMT
I genuiney applaud your last 3 Posts mrperson an excellent summation
Regards
mark687
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 13, 2016 19:46:07 GMT
5a. A single burst of excess regeneration energy can destroy an entire Dalek fleet. But somehow, the Timelords were too stupid to keep forcing regenerations of agents around Gallifrey and pumping them full of more energy, and thereby annihilating the entire Dalek invasion. Whoops! Silly Timelords. I said that two years ago!
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Post by mrperson on Sept 13, 2016 21:26:06 GMT
5a. A single burst of excess regeneration energy can destroy an entire Dalek fleet. But somehow, the Timelords were too stupid to keep forcing regenerations of agents around Gallifrey and pumping them full of more energy, and thereby annihilating the entire Dalek invasion. Whoops! Silly Timelords. I said that two years ago! So did I, probably on the old BF forum. And, no doubt, we've both been saying it since... As I said elsewhere in these forums: I can enjoy these episodes one at a time. Some of my favorites even fall in S5-S9 of the reboot. But the second I've got to step back and analyze it as a whole, it just fails. Which is a damn shame because that doesn't happen with the original run or BF. Problems, if there are any, are localized......thanks to the lack of such plot arcs
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Post by Ela on Sept 14, 2016 15:53:17 GMT
Because BRIAN BLESSED is in my second favorite story arc from classic Who? Okay, that totally made me laugh out loud.
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Post by fingersmash on Sept 14, 2016 16:21:05 GMT
5b. Oh, right. Now, after 2,000+ counted years and unknown uncounted thousands, on his 12th body and/or 14th regeneration, the Doctor suddenly wonders if he's a good man. Yep. Makes perfect sense. Except no it doesn't. That's just stupid. And the conclusion that all that counts is if you try? That's supposed to be a realization? Hasn't the Doctor said that precise thing to other people X gazzilion times? Blech! Vomit! Despair! I don't think this one is fair. It was kind of depicted as a mid life crisis of sorts for the Doctor where he wasn't sure what his next cycle was going to be. Was he going to be good? Was he going to be a warrior? Was he going to be kind? And then we get brought to Death in Heaven where he decides 'I'm an idiot who goes around saving people who don't really deserve to be saved' and he's happy about it. It was some nice character development and a nice break from the always right Eleventh and fit alongside the Nethersphere arc rather well.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 14, 2016 17:17:29 GMT
5b. Oh, right. Now, after 2,000+ counted years and unknown uncounted thousands, on his 12th body and/or 14th regeneration, the Doctor suddenly wonders if he's a good man. Yep. Makes perfect sense. Except no it doesn't. That's just stupid. And the conclusion that all that counts is if you try? That's supposed to be a realization? Hasn't the Doctor said that precise thing to other people X gazzilion times? Blech! Vomit! Despair! I don't think this one is fair. It was kind of depicted as a mid life crisis of sorts for the Doctor where he wasn't sure what his next cycle was going to be. Was he going to be good? Was he going to be a warrior? Was he going to be kind? And then we get brought to Death in Heaven where he decides 'I'm an idiot who goes around saving people who don't really deserve to be saved' and he's happy about it. It was some nice character development and a nice break from the always right Eleventh and fit alongside the Nethersphere arc rather well. I wonder what Hinchcliffe, Dicks and Letts would think of this nonsense!
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Sept 14, 2016 17:23:05 GMT
5b. Oh, right. Now, after 2,000+ counted years and unknown uncounted thousands, on his 12th body and/or 14th regeneration, the Doctor suddenly wonders if he's a good man. Yep. Makes perfect sense. Except no it doesn't. That's just stupid. And the conclusion that all that counts is if you try? That's supposed to be a realization? Hasn't the Doctor said that precise thing to other people X gazzilion times? Blech! Vomit! Despair! I don't think this one is fair. It was kind of depicted as a mid life crisis of sorts for the Doctor where he wasn't sure what his next cycle was going to be. Was he going to be good? Was he going to be a warrior? Was he going to be kind? And then we get brought to Death in Heaven where he decides 'I'm an idiot who goes around saving people who don't really deserve to be saved' and he's happy about it. It was some nice character development and a nice break from the always right Eleventh and fit alongside the Nethersphere arc rather well. It's interesting how the 12th Doctor starts off unsure whether he's a 'good man', then goes from an 'idiot in a box' to 'Time Lord Victorious' by the end of Series 9. Like in The Water of Mars, his behaviour comes at a consequence too in that he forgets Clara. It's possibly the most character development for any incarnation of the Doctor ever.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 14, 2016 18:08:15 GMT
I don't think this one is fair. It was kind of depicted as a mid life crisis of sorts for the Doctor where he wasn't sure what his next cycle was going to be. Was he going to be good? Was he going to be a warrior? Was he going to be kind? And then we get brought to Death in Heaven where he decides 'I'm an idiot who goes around saving people who don't really deserve to be saved' and he's happy about it. It was some nice character development and a nice break from the always right Eleventh and fit alongside the Nethersphere arc rather well. It's interesting how the 12th Doctor starts off unsure whether he's a 'good man', then goes from an 'idiot in a box' to 'Time Lord Victorious' by the end of Series 9. Like in The Water of Mars, his behaviour comes at a consequence too in that he forgets Clara. It's possibly the most character development for any incarnation of the Doctor ever. That is either bad writing, or an actor with no confidence! I don't understand this nonsense with Eleven being a good man. Or not!
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Sept 14, 2016 18:58:47 GMT
It's interesting how the 12th Doctor starts off unsure whether he's a 'good man', then goes from an 'idiot in a box' to 'Time Lord Victorious' by the end of Series 9. Like in The Water of Mars, his behaviour comes at a consequence too in that he forgets Clara. It's possibly the most character development for any incarnation of the Doctor ever. That is either bad writing, or an actor with no confidence! I'm not sure how it is bad writing. If anything it shows its strength.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 14, 2016 19:07:21 GMT
That is either bad writing, or an actor with no confidence! I'm not sure how it is bad writing. If anything it shows its strength. Why is the Doctor asking himself if he's a good man! An actor has to have confidence in the writing. The Doctor has to go in "being a good man", thats the point of the character.
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Post by dalekbuster523finish on Sept 14, 2016 19:18:23 GMT
I'm not sure how it is bad writing. If anything it shows its strength. Why is the Doctor asking himself if he's a good man! He's suffering a mid-life crisis because he had just been given a new set of regenerations and had no idea if it would affect his personality and behaviour.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Sept 14, 2016 20:15:05 GMT
Why is the Doctor asking himself if he's a good man! He's suffering a mid-life crisis because he had just been given a new set of regenerations and had no idea if it would affect his personality and behaviour. Rubbish. Its padding for bad writers.
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Post by barnabaslives on Sept 14, 2016 20:53:42 GMT
He's suffering a mid-life crisis because he had just been given a new set of regenerations and had no idea if it would affect his personality and behaviour. I would probably personally prefer greatly that The Doctor not have a mid-life crisis, but with the Time War behind, The Valeyard close ahead, the chance to still kick himself over Genesis every time a Dalek rears its eyestalk, and too great a list of companions lost to tragic endings, I could certainly understand him being prone to a period of self-doubt.
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