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Post by barnabaslives on Nov 13, 2016 4:47:47 GMT
I think there's something to be said for "cheer up", but some things are worth getting angry over. Some things are worth fighting back over. Too important to just grin and bear it, too raw to suppress it with jokes and banter. The more people who just cheer up and accept the new status quo, the more it becomes the norm for future elections and candidates. Efforts to cheer us up are much appreciated here, thanks, although I take your point. It does bothers me that it seems like the only place you can be generous anymore in pointing out the absurdity of something is in a comedy monologue or on Comedy Central where you don't have to take things back or be sued for libel because you were "just joking". That can almost seem to trivialize things considerably, but I still do find the perspectives in some of these places helpful even if nothing's really funny. I was encouraged when the Daily Show showed Trump sitting down with Obama and they got all the stuff they'd been saying in speeches up to that point replayed in their heads because it did seem to dramatically underscore the distance between Trump's campaign rhetoric and the possible reality, and suddenly Trump somehow seemed a little more like a five-year old with an auntie who was going to pinch him silly if he wasn't on his best behavior at the White House, rather than the horrific orange beast we've come to expect. I was also rather moved that Trevor Noah was just about asking people outright not to let their Trump protests turn violent, which was wonderful. Amen, please don't anyone run out to the streets and try to deserve this guy. I actually feel sorry for his supporters who are finding out just that quickly that he may well be the sort of person who will say virtually anything to get elected and might be just as happy to drop any of it like a hot potato. I'd be even more encouraged though if I could think of the VP the same way as being completely full of hot air, or if I could be confident that America as a "successful business" will consist of Trump hiring people who actually know what they're doing and his administration being observant of "consumer" opinion, and that directives will still come from higher up than the VP. Loss of what little progress has been made in 30 years in access to medical cannabis or same-sex partner rights can be truly devastating to a great many on a personal level. (I seem to hear enough complaints from conservative opposition that they need more time to prepare for such ideas but cannabis laws for example after recent progress still look very suspiciously like three decades ago). At least maybe having the popular victory will allow us to remind the conservatives that they don't necessarily have some raging mandate from the masses. If they would just stop with the "taking back America" and "make America great again" rhetoric. How about sharing America with fellow Americans, and how about remembering that neither party invented greatness nor has a monopoly on it? It always strikes me as a backhanded and rather severe insult to our country to say it ever stopped being a great one. I don't know if I've really been hearing that sort of thing all my life, or if it just seems like it now, but it always tries to depress to try to think that that's what constitutes patriotism. Still, I think it really did make my wife and I feel better the other day to try to shoehorn the election results onto some of the Monty Python "Bloody Peasants" bit Who's he think he is, king? Well, I didn't vote for 'im. You don't vote for kings. Well, how'd he get elected then? ... (Supreme power derives from a mandate from the Electoral College, who knew?) If I can get myself to worry just a bit less, I might get settled into some audiobooks again and that should hopefully help to not dwell on things too much in a catastrophic manner. Thanks everyone for the cheer and the concern in this thread, and thank God for Big Finish!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 6:41:06 GMT
At the end of the day, I would like everyone -- whether they're American or not -- to remember that we're all human. The only differences that exist are those we create ourselves.
As Lincoln said himself when quoting a Persian proverb -- "This, too, shall pass." Keep talking, keep pushing against hatred and one day it will change. It's an inevitable part of life.
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Post by kimalysong on Nov 13, 2016 11:17:03 GMT
I've been at a Doctor Who Con and I've been bitching about Trump all weekend to other like minded people. It does feel cathartic.
Now most of us here hate Trump as you can hear from the audience laughter anytime someone makes a joke or comment about him. However apparently (and I was sadly not there to witness this) Peter Davison got in a debate with some Trump supporters this weekend. All I can say is go him!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 11:28:07 GMT
However apparently (and I was sadly not there to witness this) Peter Davison got in a debate with some Trump supporters this weekend. All I can say is go him! Is it my imagination or has Peter Davison reached an age where he just doesn't give a damn anymore? It's crazy awesome in its own way.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 12:49:01 GMT
I actually feel sorry for his supporters who are finding out just that quickly that he may well be the sort of person who will say virtually anything to get elected and might be just as happy to drop any of it like a hot potato. Personally, I think a lot of what Trump has said to get elected will get watered down or dropped completely. I don't believe he could deliver on half of those promises!
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Nov 13, 2016 15:17:59 GMT
I've been at a Doctor Who Con and I've been bitching about Trump all weekend to other like minded people. It does feel cathartic. Now most of us here hate Trump as you can hear from the audience laughter anytime someone makes a joke or comment about him. However apparently (and I was sadly not there to witness this) Peter Davison got in a debate with some Trump supporters this weekend. All I can say is go him! I must admit, I find it a little strange that any Doctor Who fan would support Trump, it's a show that preaches about love, compassion, tolerance, honour and bravery...and I'm not entirely convinced Trump has shown any of those during his campaign...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2016 17:06:40 GMT
So after the other day where he said the liked the "pillars" of Obamacare, Trump now says his Mexican Wall.....will be more of a fence. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37969112He should try an get backpeddling recognised as an Olympic sport.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 14, 2016 0:01:02 GMT
So after the other day where he said the liked the "pillars" of Obamacare, Trump now says his Mexican Wall.....will be more of a fence. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37969112He should try an get backpeddling recognised as an Olympic sport. Will Mexico at least be paying for it?
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Nov 14, 2016 0:02:44 GMT
So after the other day where he said the liked the "pillars" of Obamacare, Trump now says his Mexican Wall.....will be more of a fence. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37969112He should try an get backpeddling recognised as an Olympic sport. Will Mexico at least be paying for it? Why should Mexico pay for Mr Trump's idea?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2016 1:02:10 GMT
So after the other day where he said the liked the "pillars" of Obamacare, Trump now says his Mexican Wall.....will be more of a fence. www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37969112He should try an get backpeddling recognised as an Olympic sport. Will Mexico at least be paying for it? Very doubtful, considering that Mexico is not annexed to the United States like Hawaii or Alaska are. The American government would have to find a way to make it appeal to the Mexican government and since it's their proposal, the US would still be paying the brunt of the finances. If Mexico says no unilaterally, then you basically get Checkpoint Charlie from Cold War era East/West Berlin.
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Post by icecreamdf on Nov 14, 2016 2:46:32 GMT
Will Mexico at least be paying for it? Why should Mexico pay for Mr Trump's idea? I dunno. He's been saying they will. Trump would have to be an idiot, a racist, and a liar to be making that up.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Nov 14, 2016 3:24:50 GMT
Why should Mexico pay for Mr Trump's idea? I dunno. He's been saying they will. Trump would have to be an idiot, a racist, and a liar to be making that up. ...I see what you did there.
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Post by Timelord007 on Nov 14, 2016 8:45:05 GMT
Rogue One's out next month, appropriate movie title for your next president.
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Post by mrperson on Nov 14, 2016 19:44:51 GMT
I actually feel sorry for his supporters who are finding out just that quickly that he may well be the sort of person who will say virtually anything to get elected and might be just as happy to drop any of it like a hot potato. I'd be even more encouraged though if I could think of the VP the same way as being completely full of hot air, or if I could be confident that America as a "successful business" will consist of Trump hiring people who actually know what they're doing and his administration being observant of "consumer" opinion, and that directives will still come from higher up than the VP. Loss of what little progress has been made in 30 years in access to medical cannabis or same-sex partner rights can be truly devastating to a great many on a personal level. (I seem to hear enough complaints from conservative opposition that they need more time to prepare for such ideas but cannabis laws for example after recent progress still look very suspiciously like three decades ago). At least maybe having the popular victory will allow us to remind the conservatives that they don't necessarily have some raging mandate from the masses. Let me cut this bit out of your much longer post... I don't feel sorry for them, but I do hope they learn something. Put his policies aside. His election persona was a blatant lie right from the beginning. He campaigned as the "anti-establishment" candidate, yet everything about his life screamed "establishment". He merely hadn't been elected office. (He bragged about using wealth to buy political favors, etc, exactly the sort of corruption that the word "establishment" conjurs). And now, sure enough, he is surrounding himself with D.C. establishment insiders. Of course, I also hope the left learns something: they can't just keep coming back with the same pattern of old ideas and rely on a sense of inevitability. The only Dem who had a chance of beating Trump was Sanders, because Sanders was also an "outsider" candidate. That is, despite being very much part of the political establishment, he has always fought against the norms. It was the norms about which enough Americans were angry. I participate on a number of political message boards. Have done for years. There are indeed some Trump supporters who really bought into the more xenophobic ideas and statements, but most of them were just plain angry about politics (and, it seems, just wanted to break stuff to feel better). Neither the Dems nor the more left-leaning media seemed to sense this. It didn't matter quite how awful Trump's supposed policies ideas were to most of his supporters because they weren't voting for his ideas or voting for him. They were voting against business as usual. (I tend to see myself as left-of-center, but not in the sense of any allegiance. It's what I feel is would be the average lean between all the policies I support, which are rather all over the map in terms of political lean depending on the subject.)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2016 8:49:50 GMT
Of course, I also hope the left learns something: they can't just keep coming back with the same pattern of old ideas and rely on a sense of inevitability. The only Dem who had a chance of beating Trump was Sanders, because Sanders was also an "outsider" candidate. That is, despite being very much part of the political establishment, he has always fought against the norms. It was the norms about which enough Americans were angry. I participate on a number of political message boards. Have done for years. There are indeed some Trump supporters who really bought into the more xenophobic ideas and statements, but most of them were just plain angry about politics (and, it seems, just wanted to break stuff to feel better). Neither the Dems nor the more left-leaning media seemed to sense this. It didn't matter quite how awful Trump's supposed policies ideas were to most of his supporters because they weren't voting for his ideas or voting for him. They were voting against business as usual. It was very interesting seeing both the interview of Donald Trump on 60 Minutes and the comments for the video underneath it. Often enough, it was people either dismissing his turn to the camera to say "Stop it," or derogatorily condemning the interviewer who had been quizzing him as "leftist". The former confuses me because you would think people would try to get momentum behind that idea and the latter baffles me because you want an opposing viewpoint to show how your new President can handle dissimilar perspectives. This post more than anything else rings true for me because it seems that all the politicking has fallen by the wayside in favour of shutting up the opposition. One side wants the "leftist crybabies" to accept the presidency without incident and the other wants the "ignorant dupes" to accept the apparent falsehood of the man's claims. In the eyes of one, he's a straw effigy to be burned. In another, a saint who can do no wrong. The more I read, the more these problems to me feel as though they go a lot wider than just this presidential race. It feels like these are misgivings that have been bubbling away for quite some time beneath the surface and this has been the opportunity to channel it all down into the point of a spear. It's not about the politics anymore really, it's about something much, much bigger. This is just an anthropological theory, but I think -- given that it's been almost fifteen years since 9/11 -- that American culture is about to reach another turning point where it will change dramatically. We're in the midst of the decade and this is when social concerns and anxieties typically start to push themselves into the foreground. Things like the Vietnam War, acceleration of the nuclear arms race, rapid developments in computerised technology, the rise of Asia as an economic power in the West, etc. These things aren't necessarily for the worse, but they are dramatic changes and dramatic change tends to manifest itself in stuff like this. That's just a theory though, based on what I've seen happen over the twentieth century. Great waves of time dashing themselves on history books.
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Post by jasonward on Nov 15, 2016 12:37:36 GMT
In the eyes of one, he's a straw effigy to be burned. In another, a saint who can do no wrong. Not only that but, perception between the two sides is so utterly different that someone in one camp cannot even understand how the other cannot see what they see.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2016 13:01:20 GMT
In the eyes of one, he's a straw effigy to be burned. In another, a saint who can do no wrong. Not only that but, perception between the two sides is so utterly different that someone in one camp cannot even understand how the other cannot see what they see. And that to me sounds like a form of radicalisation. With some, I'd almost say it's a mania. It's why I keep stressing that we have to remember people are people because when mob mentalities run high -- and seen crowds where this happens -- you stop seeing even those who sympathise with you as human beings. They become caricatures, objects of scorn and it just keeps breeding that destructive hate. You go blind and you destroy and destroy and destroy until you start destroying your own because you're so caught up in that frenzy of emotion that you can't tell the difference. It becomes the Salem witch trials all over again and it can happen so easily. That's why you keep your values in the forefront of your mind, it's such an easy line to cross when people don't notice it's there. Stand up for what you believe in, fight for the rights of those whose freedoms are being jeopardised, but fight well and with your mind. Don't enter a melee where it's just blind emotion against blind emotion because there is nothing that can be achieved there. I know it's not an easy path, but it is so much more worthwhile than wanton aggression. Life is short, it shouldn't be wasted on hating people.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2016 22:54:22 GMT
I know that there are often subtle differences between British and American English, and consequently, phrases have slightly different meanings. So I have to ask, what does "cheer up" mean over there? Because I must say, the latest posts in this thread are doing nothing to cheer me up
I was a bit surprised, as well!
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Post by Ela on Nov 16, 2016 5:31:28 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2016 5:38:15 GMT
I love these, they're marvellous.
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