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Post by acousticwolf on Mar 8, 2017 8:49:37 GMT
I see JohannesVIII's artwork is gaining approval at source:
A great illustration for a great story
Cheers
Tony
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Post by nitronine on Mar 8, 2017 15:45:24 GMT
I have a question about Songs of Love {Spoiler} Was it just me or did it attempt to retcon the line in Doom Coalition 2 referencing the fact that River has already met the 'magician' Doctor? As it seemed to be set very soon before THORS for her, not after. I guess she could have been referencing the third Doctor in Doom Coalition 2 but that would seem odd as he wasn't one of the Doctors she could meet.
It's not a major thing, and if I'm honest I'd prefer River not to meet any Doctors between THORS and the library. I'm also glad there was a bit of a retcon in Diary of River Song 2 that meant that the first set could now be easily set before THORS, I just thought that Doom Coalition would be harder to explain away.
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Post by xlozdob on Mar 8, 2017 18:36:14 GMT
I have a question about Songs of Love {Spoiler} Was it just me or did it attempt to retcon the line in Doom Coalition 2 referencing the fact that River has already met the 'magician' Doctor? As it seemed to be set very soon before THORS for her, not after. I guess she could have been referencing the third Doctor in Doom Coalition 2 but that would seem odd as he wasn't one of the Doctors she could meet.
It's not a major thing, and if I'm honest I'd prefer River not to meet any Doctors between THORS and the library. I'm also glad there was a bit of a retcon in Diary of River Song 2 that meant that the first set could now be easily set before THORS, I just thought that Doom Coalition would be harder to explain away. What made you think that?
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Post by nitronine on Mar 8, 2017 18:56:48 GMT
I have a question about Songs of Love {Spoiler} Was it just me or did it attempt to retcon the line in Doom Coalition 2 referencing the fact that River has already met the 'magician' Doctor? As it seemed to be set very soon before THORS for her, not after. I guess she could have been referencing the third Doctor in Doom Coalition 2 but that would seem odd as he wasn't one of the Doctors she could meet.
It's not a major thing, and if I'm honest I'd prefer River not to meet any Doctors between THORS and the library. I'm also glad there was a bit of a retcon in Diary of River Song 2 that meant that the first set could now be easily set before THORS, I just thought that Doom Coalition would be harder to explain away. What made you think that? {Spoiler} Because IIRC River says that she didn't think that the Doctor really loved her, and she said the same in THORS. But in that story she appears to realise that he does love her. So if DC was set afterwards, she would have to lose that development. (I may be misinterpreting/misremembering it though)
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Post by xlozdob on Mar 8, 2017 21:21:04 GMT
What made you think that? {Spoiler}Because IIRC River says that she didn't think that the Doctor really loved her, and she said the same in THORS. But in that story she appears to realise that he does love her. So if DC was set afterwards, she would have to lose that development. (I may be misinterpreting/misremembering it though) {Spoiler} You mean speaking with the Sonomancer? Idrk what to make of that, I'll have to relisten, but it might have been her trying to use her experience of believing the Doctor didn't really love her as a way to stop her. I took what she said to the Doctor later as this being her last major adventure before the Library. But I guess it could also have been her last adventure before THORS, since she knew there were only a few pages left of the diary. Also, may I ask what in the DoRS2 retcons the placement? I'm genuinely curious.
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Post by coffeeaddict on Mar 8, 2017 22:15:17 GMT
Excellent series. Love the end and how it set the stage for the next adventure.
Gotta say, I'd love BF to do a story fleshing out the origin of The 11.
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Post by nitronine on Mar 8, 2017 22:28:48 GMT
{Spoiler}Because IIRC River says that she didn't think that the Doctor really loved her, and she said the same in THORS. But in that story she appears to realise that he does love her. So if DC was set afterwards, she would have to lose that development. (I may be misinterpreting/misremembering it though) {Spoiler} You mean speaking with the Sonomancer? Idrk what to make of that, I'll have to relisten, but it might have been her trying to use her experience of believing the Doctor didn't really love her as a way to stop her. I took what she said to the Doctor later as this being her last major adventure before the Library. But I guess it could also have been her last adventure before THORS, since she knew there were only a few pages left of the diary. Also, may I ask what in the DoRS2 retcons the placement? I'm genuinely curious. {Spoiler} Well it didn't retcon it completely, but the main argument that it had to be post THORS was that River had a sonic screwdriver in the first set, presumably the one the Doctor gave her. But in the second set she says something along the lines that she made her own sonic screwdriver (not trowel), so now it doesn't have to be set post THORS. It can still be set after Darillium if the listener wants it to be, but it doesn't have to if they don't want it do as well, it just opens it for more interpretations. I guess it's just up to each person who listens where they think it is, because there's no right or wrong answer.
As for your point about it possibly just have been River using her own experience to stop the Sonomancer, the thought had crossed my mind as well, but I wasn't sure so I thought I'd ask what other people thought.
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Post by mark687 on Mar 9, 2017 10:18:17 GMT
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Post by Digi on Mar 9, 2017 13:14:54 GMT
Terrific set, terrific conclusion to Doom Coalition. Now that I'm done, I'm having a hard time remembering which episode was which--it just felt like one big, grand story. And setup for the next story! Oh, and we get to keep both Liv and Helen, that's a nice extra
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Post by christmastrenzalore on Mar 9, 2017 14:04:33 GMT
I really don't know what to say. They tied it up so nicely. Not only did it build up and pay off the a great arc, and draw on the earlier stories (even back to Dark Eyes and the EDAs) for well-earned emotional/exciting moments, but each story was exciting in it's own right.
The Eleven now in the dragon role was more threatening than ever, Padrac (who seemed like a weak-sauce reveal) was made into a compelling villain, with his links to the underground coalition made him feel a bigger threat, all the heroes played an important role. They even weaved in some Time War prequel stuff.
The only thing I'm still a little unsure on, is why the Eleven was trying to blow up the Earth in the first Box. Was that important to the story or just a whim?
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Post by kimalysong on Mar 9, 2017 15:31:00 GMT
I had not realized or remembered the monk was in this. A lovely surprise for my ears.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 18:05:28 GMT
Loved the ending to The Side Of The Angels. Felt like we were heading towards a regen and just to get a small appearance from Jacks was a treat. Really starting to see the eras tie together now, something I imagine The Time War boxset will do more of. Rufus Hound really is fun as The Monk. Undeniably the same Timelord but nowhere near as suave as the Graeme Garden incarnation or as haughty as the Butterworth one. Hound's incarnation really is a snivelling little man. Would love to see him and Drax team up sometime.
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Post by 1shoedpunk on Mar 10, 2017 4:21:05 GMT
Loved the callback to the Red Lady. Tied everything up in a nice, red bow.
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Post by elkawho on Mar 10, 2017 5:13:37 GMT
Finished it and WOW! That was amazing! There were some real real shocking, "did that just happen? moments for me, and each story was as good as the next. I was really upset that work got in the way of my listening. The only disappointment was one that I should have expected. I've been looking forward to Eight meeting The Monk ever since To The Death. That story still leaves a lump in my throat and I got emotional as soon as the Monk and The Doctor came face to face. Now, I completely understand why they didn't side track the flow of the story with the emotional baggage that comes with that meeting, but in my heart I wanted more. I'm not sure what, to be honest, but something more. For Lucie, and Alex, and Tamsin. Even if those names weren't mentioned, I felt like he could have been meeting any Timelord that he didn't happen to like. Until, well, the end of that story. But in the end it was all so subdued.
But the set, as a whole, was outstanding. And I also loved the callback to the Red Lady. Just a masterful set of stories.
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Post by jjjjj on Mar 10, 2017 12:04:25 GMT
The only thing I'm still a little unsure on, is why the Eleven was trying to blow up the Earth in the first Box. Was that important to the story or just a whim? This! I get that elevens escape allowed caleera to get away and unlock her potential, which was requires for her to blow up that planet so they could get the metals needed to make the clock. But that whole workhouse in space thing, what was that about? I know to kill the doctor, but what was the deal with the stellar manipulator thing that the eleven was messing with? I never made the connection to how the last story of set one, interacted with the latter stories.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2017 16:50:09 GMT
Just finished 'A Ship in a Bottle' and am sorry to say I found it a bit of a chore. A situation that could have been resolved in five minutes stretched out to a full episode, featuring the Doctor being uncharacteristically snarky with his companions just so they could have a conversation about how unpredictable he can be. I suppose with something as huge as 'Doom Coalition', there is room for breathing space, and I welcome that - but I'm afraid I found it rather dull. Then again, I found 'Scherzo' very dull all those years ago for much the same reasons, and that has met with high acclaim, much as 'A Ship in a Bottle' has. There's also a very good chance I may listen to this again and find it thoroughly rewarding. Such a thing has happened before. But for now, I found it bloated, only momentarily engaging, and I was crying out for some other characters to provide some additional incident. Ah well, you can't like everything!
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Post by kimalysong on Mar 10, 2017 21:50:09 GMT
I loved Ship in the Bottle but then again I tend to love the strictly character pieces, especially when you have characters as strong as Liv, Helen and of course the 8th Doctor himself.
My favorite episode though was definitely The Side of Angels. I just can't resist a story with both the Monk and the Angels. It was fully entertaining.
But as for Doom Coalition as a whole I would still say my top 3 episodes were the Eleven, The Red Lady, and of course Absent Friends.
My favorite aspect of the entire series were definitely Liv & Helen though. Two awesome companions, I couldn't be more pleased with their characterization across the 4 box sets.
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Post by mrperson on Mar 11, 2017 1:44:31 GMT
Well, then. Well then....
Mr. Chibnall: if you read this or anyone sends you comments from here, take heed. If you choose to continue the arc-obsessions of the new series, THIS is how you do it. I'd prefer you don't, but if you do, this is how you do it: get your ducks in a row first.
I may have more comments later, but for now, I just have to wonder out loud whether Big Finish can keep exceeding itself. Every last bit of the arc worked. There were so many individual episodes that just plain knocked it out of the park throughout the Doom Coalition series, past the next park, and into a third.
They put on the greatest show in the galaxy, I tell you. Perhaps, the best story ever told; well, no, tied with Tolkien's worlds. (Beats the bible, I tell you. <Ducks and runs for cover> )
Long live Big Finish! Long live Doctor Who!
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Post by mrperson on Mar 11, 2017 1:52:19 GMT
Just finished 'A Ship in a Bottle' and am sorry to say I found it a bit of a chore. A situation that could have been resolved in five minutes stretched out to a full episode, featuring the Doctor being uncharacteristically snarky with his companions just so they could have a conversation about how unpredictable he can be. I suppose with something as huge as 'Doom Coalition', there is room for breathing space, and I welcome that - but I'm afraid I found it rather dull. Then again, I found 'Scherzo' very dull all those years ago for much the same reasons, and that has met with high acclaim, much as 'A Ship in a Bottle' has. There's also a very good chance I may listen to this again and find it thoroughly rewarding. Such a thing has happened before. But for now, I found it bloated, only momentarily engaging, and I was crying out for some other characters to provide some additional incident. Ah well, you can't like everything! What I'm about to say isn't an argument that your opinion is wrong, because that would be quite silly. But consider. If they got out right away, wouldn't that make the cliffhanger look stupid and useless? They were sent into the void resulting from a success (later undone). They were as lost as you can get without being in the supposed un-place of the "void" between universes (not that the concept makes a speck of sense, there being no dimensions outside of that which has dimensions by definition). I'd probably have been quite annoyed if it was a quick escape. I rather liked it. I did not anticipate the solution in the least. Even though it relied on the kind of sci-fantasy/sci-fi that Who always straddles, it worked for me. Only the most absurd could solve the problem. _________________ As for the bolded, that's exactly what happened to me with "Absent Friends". For whatever reason, I didn't actually think much of it when I first listened to it. Then I listened again (in a better mood?) and truly loved it.
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Post by mrperson on Mar 11, 2017 2:13:08 GMT
I've been looking forward to Eight meeting The Monk ever since To The Death. That story still leaves a lump in my throat and I got emotional as soon as the Monk and The Doctor came face to face. Now, I completely understand why they didn't side track the flow of the story with the emotional baggage that comes with that meeting, but in my heart I wanted more. I'm not sure what, to be honest, but something more. For Lucie, and Alex, and Tamsin. Even if those names weren't mentioned, I felt like he could have been meeting any Timelord that he didn't happen to like. Until, well, the end of that story. But in the end it was all so subdued. That actually functions as an addition to my explanation of why I don't like the concept of a War Doctor (though I would be insane to insist that John Hurt should not have been The Doctor). The Doctor is strong, impossibly strong. The baggage was there. You can hear the twinge in McGann's voice. But because of that hideous strength, he can simply shove it down and deal with what must be dealt with. Why my first sentence? Because that's the exact thing the "War Doctor" does: minimize casualty, but take necessity as motivation, command, indeed necessity as a commanding God.
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