aztec
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Post by aztec on Dec 31, 2016 19:36:18 GMT
A new thread for the BBC 8th Doctor novels, to discuss or argue about the run of 73 BBC novels starring the 8th Doctor (or 76 if you count fear Itself, Wolfsbane and The TV Movie novelisation) post your thoughts, reviews, fan theories and general comments (or anything else related) here. To start the thread off a few general questions: 1) What are your favourite, and least favourite stories in the range, and why? 2) What are your thoughts on the five companions (Sam, Fitz, Compassion, Anji and Trix) and their arcs? 3) A related question, Fitz appears in more than 50 of the EDA's over a period of nearly seven years and remains one of the longer serving companions, he's something of a fan favorite amongst many readers, why do you think he lasted so long? And was it a good thing that he did? 4) With only one televised appearance (and perhaps the Radio Times comics, some of the short stories and The Dying Days...I'm not sure if any of this stuff predates The Eight Doctors) to base the character of the 8th Doctor off, for the first few years of the range the EDA writers were very much making up the history and character growth of the 8th Doctor as they went along...how much of a success do you think this was? And at what point in the EDA's do you think we get a clear picture of the 8th Doctor's character? 5) Relating to the question above, although the EDA's made the occasional reference to, or attempt to tie in with the wider continuity from the Virgin novels and comics they also stand alone as their own distinct era of Who, predating McGann's BF debut by several years, do you think this still holds true? Or does the 8th Doctor as seen in the BBC novels mesh seamlessly with the character in the BF audios. 6) On a related note, do you think Big Finish took any inspiration from the character of the 8th Doctor in prose (or his story arcs) and used them to inform the way he was written in the audio stories. 7) I haven't read any of the Virgin books, but I've heard that the BBC novels have a very different tone to them, is this simply a matter of following a New Doctor or actually true? 8) Any favourite passages or quotes? 9) What did the EDA's do best? 10) And alternatively, what didn't they do so well? 11) What would you have done differently if you were the range editor? 12) Infamously, the EDA's feature two plot points {Spoiler} a massive time war involving the timelords, which culminates in the destruction of Gallifrey in the Ancestor Cell which would be adapted for use in the backstory to the revival series of Doctor Who, did these events benefit the story arc of the EDA's? And which did them better, the TV series or books? Feel free to add any of your own thoughts or comments
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Dec 31, 2016 19:42:49 GMT
Did anyone else feel like The Bodysnatchers and Eater Of Wasps could pass for Hincliffe era serials?
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Post by Sir Wearer of Hats on Dec 31, 2016 22:51:26 GMT
3) Because Fitz was, fundamentally, the perfect foil for the BBC eighth Doctor. Sour and cynical hiding a heart of gold and a love of adventure. He's very human (despite, technically, being a child of the TARDIS for 40 odd books) and relatable. He has talents and creativity.
8) Related to the above, but Compassion's assessment of the three of them from "Frontier Worlds", always rings true - the Doctor looks up and sees animal shapes in the clouds and the trails of rockets, she sees scientifical designations and Fitz sees that someone has stolen their tent. And of course there's the famous "the truth is...." paragraph from "Gallifrey Chronicles".
12) IF the BBC had been allowed to use their initial intention, that being the Daleks had taken over as Lords of Time in Gsllifrey's absence, the book version would have been better. As it was, the books showed the effect of Gallifrey's loss had on the universe, while the TV show showed its effect on the Doctor.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Jan 2, 2017 12:04:55 GMT
3) Because Fitz was, fundamentally, the perfect foil for the BBC eighth Doctor. Sour and cynical hiding a heart of gold and a love of adventure. He's very human (despite, technically, being a child of the TARDIS for 40 odd books) and relatable. He has talents and creativity. 8) Related to the above, but Compassion's assessment of the three of them from "Frontier Worlds", always rings true - the Doctor looks up and sees animal shapes in the clouds and the trails of rockets, she sees scientifical designations and Fitz sees that someone has stolen their tent. And of course there's the famous "the truth is...." paragraph from "Gallifrey Chronicles". 12) IF the BBC had been allowed to use their initial intention, that being the Daleks had taken over as Lords of Time in Gsllifrey's absence, the book version would have been better. As it was, the books showed the effect of Gallifrey's loss had on the universe, while the TV show showed its effect on the Doctor. 1) I've enjoyed the majority of the EDA's to some extent (haven't read all of them yet) but stand out stories for me would be Alien Bodies, Demontage, The Scarlet Empress, the Orman/Blum novels, The Earth arc, The Shadows of Avalon and The City Of The Dead these are not only solid who stories in their own right, they have interesting world building and storylines and explore the Doctor's character in very different ways to what could be achieved in the TV series, I really like the way the EDA's largely shied away from the formula of the Classic series and old enemies, there's more of a fantasy angle to the range and the Ancestor Cell onwards very much feels like its own distinct era of Who. The first 20 or so books are widely, and rightly regarded as quite hit and miss i.m.o, few of them are outright terrible but perhaps worse...only a couple are excellent, it did read like the editors weren't really sure how to write or develop the 8th Doctor (understandably given his limited screentime) his character changed from novel to novel and Sam was quite a bland companion a lot of the time i.m.o. 2. Sam was a generic companion if there ever was one, only Miles and Orman/Blum did anything really interesting with her, the introduction of Fitz brought out new elements of her chracter, but she didn't stick around long enough to develop these, not making much of an impression on me either way, Fitz was a fantastic companion from the start a polar opposite to the life loving 8th Doctor he drew out the best in the Doctor's personality and keeps the stories grounded. Compassion had a very interesting arc and I loved how blunt she could be at times but she was written as little more than a generic space b*tch before that change happened so it was a little hard to get emotionally invested in the current tardis team, like Sam she didn't stick around long enough i.m.o, as interesting as her arc was it felt like the character's development was more important than actually getting to know her (if that makes sense i.e Like Sam she didn't appear in that many stories, but unlike her she was developed into an interesting character very early on, too quickly i.m.o) I really wish we'd seen the exact events of how she and Fitz rejoined the 8th Doctor 'off screen' between Intereference and The Blue Angel (though it is during this gap that many place the BF Montly stories for 8/Mary/Charley/C'Rizz) 3. Yes, I see Fitz a similar way, the 8th Doctor in particular has a love of adventure and discovery but Fitz's more cynical outlook and lazy disposition keeps the Doctor (and the stories) grounded, unlike Sam or Compassion he doesn't have a complex backstory, he's just a very human, down to earth and flawed person, the 8/Fitz partnership reminds me of 2/Jamie. 4) I'm not sure on this myself, several of the early EDA's do a great job at capturing a defined character but it dosen't always feel like the same Doctor, Vampire Science captures TV Movie 8th Doctor perfectly, whereas Option Lock/Kursaal often felt like 5th Doctor stories (whilst Terrence Dicks did his usual thing of writing generic Doctor who speaks like Pertwee in the Eight Doctors), I already had a very defined image of the 8th Doctor from the BF audios and it wasn't until The Scarlet Empress that I began to feel this was definitely the same character.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2017 14:16:55 GMT
4) For me, personally? Father Time. No question. That to me was the Eighth Doctor for the novels. Everything you could ever want from him and more.
5) I think the other way around, truth be told. In my mind, it goes the DWM comics (which beat the novels by a year publication-wise), the Big Finish audios, and the BBC novels. The Eighth Doctor as seen in those latter-day novels and in Blood of the Daleks is a genuinely emotional man. Not giddy, but a man with gravitas who shoves someone against a window to look at the bodies careening by and savages the man who shot the guardian of his adoptive daughter with his own bare fists. He's genuinely dangerous in his passions, a Doctor who occasionally loses control to his emotions in a way that makes you believe he can take things too far. There are shades of this in both the comics and the audios, but I don't think it ever truly manifests in the way it does there. Those earlier novels with TVM!Eighth tend to feel a bit, well... out of place with The Dying Days on one side and Endgame on the other.
7) Oh, god, where to begin... The Virgin ranges were an artefact of their time, steeped in cyberpunk and Lovecraftian ideologies with spellbindingly alien worldbuilding and an anti-heroic main character. It was Doctor Who for the 1990s and all that entailed, pushing boundaries in ways that the television series never really could have. Even their first (and unfortunately only) attempt to do a traditional story for the Eighth Doctor in The Dying Days was an experiment in carefully measured storytelling with every scene capable of being realised within the space of a conventional television budget (right down to the number of Ice Warriors "on screen"). Nevertheless, the greatest difference between the two ranges tones can be summed up thus -- the Virgin range was science fiction and the BBC range was science fantasy.
9) Bravo to the EDAs for putting the Doctor front and centre. No matter how good the Virgin stories were, some of them were utterly appalling at giving the Doctor face-time. I enjoyed the sense of direction that emerged from The Burning, it felt like reading a millennium revival of the show that wanted to go back and recapture that Hartnell era feeling of mystery and wariness. Vampire Science has this wonderful, effusive sense of enthusiasm to it, but I just couldn't get into it because of that TV Movie feeling. I'm not a fan of it and I'm glad that Big Finish, DWM and eventually even the books themselves moved away from that towards a calmer, yet more passionate Doctor.
10) This new Doctor's characterisation was all over the place. Depending on the book, he was straight fresh from the TVM, pretending to be Peter Davison or acting like the Seventh Doctor again.
11) I'd have started off the Eighth Doctor on his own without a permanent companion for a change. One book you have Simon Templar, the next you have Holly Golightly and after that you have John McClaine, it'd allow for an exploration of this new incarnation's character from different angles. I would have liked the first three novels to be a historical, a future and a sideways story, respectively. Maybe something like Gunga-Din, Captain Scarlet and Dark City. The urge is great, but I would've tried to avoid any familiar faces. A cute reference to Trakenite herbology when the Doctor pulls something from his pocket sure, but no one we recognise. Also, for him to have a well-defined character. If he's going to grow into his new personality, there is going to be a very real and present progression that we're going to see. I'd also like to have seen his Romantic optimism pitted against some really unpleasant places. Show the audience that a man like him can make peace in a world that does not want, care or even respect him. Show how surprised a punk on a motorcycle can be when a stranger comes up and bandages his arm for a gunshot wound because it's the right thing to do.
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aztec
Chancellery Guard
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Post by aztec on Jan 2, 2017 16:23:59 GMT
The caught on Earth arc, though short ranks as one of my favourite seasons of Who (if it can be called that) I've yet encountered, shame it wasn't longer, if BF has ruled out EDA adaptions this period would be a goldmine for new stories...
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Post by omega on Jan 3, 2017 5:02:11 GMT
I would love to hear Compassion realised on audio. It'd be such an amazing soundscape. Would the Doctor and Fitz hear her inside their heads, speaking out of the air? Compassion as a sentient TARDIS is such a fascinating concept, and it's a shame she doesn't appear after Ancestor Cell* outside of an ambiguous cameo late in the range.
*I know she appears in the Faction Paradox spin-off
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Jan 3, 2017 12:26:22 GMT
I would love to hear Compassion realised on audio. It'd be such an amazing soundscape. Would the Doctor and Fitz hear her inside their heads, speaking out of the air? Compassion as a sentient TARDIS is such a fascinating concept, and it's a shame she doesn't appear after Ancestor Cell* outside of an ambiguous cameo late in the range. *I know she appears in the Faction Paradox spin-off Maybe BF could bring her back for the War Doctor audios...
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 3, 2017 13:09:31 GMT
Of the EDA's I've read the best for me are: Vampire Science, The Taint and Alien Bodies, there's just so much detail in those stories for me with great introductions for new companions and the world building. Fitz becomes a great character from the off, while Sam only has a few good books where she grows. I've only read two with Anji, but i like where she's going atm
The worst are Genocide and The Eight Doctors for me. With Genocide well it seems like some characters are shoehorned in, trying to prove the 8 is a true Doctor and with the Eight Doctors its just Dicks giving himself a pat on the back going "look at all your stories arent they great". I'd take the beginning and end of the book with Sam and make a completely different story myself.
I love the risks some of the stories take and thats what Doctor Who should do
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Post by constonks on Jan 4, 2017 6:31:02 GMT
I've only read the first seven and Legacy of the Daleks but I own a whole lot of them I've yet to get to.
So far I'd probably rank em:
- Vampire Science - Alien Bodies - Kursaal - Genocide - Legacy of the Daleks - The Eight Doctors - The Bodysnatchers - War of the Daleks
I didn't hate any of them, although the last two on that list were a bit of a slog at times. They all have their moments though.
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Post by newt5996 on Jan 4, 2017 22:55:14 GMT
Just began reading these. Review of the Eight Doctors to follow. In short it's a piece of fanjodrell that makes Timewyrm: Genesys look like high art.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Jan 5, 2017 16:43:20 GMT
Just began reading these. Review of the Eight Doctors to follow. In short it's a piece of fanjodrell that makes Timewyrm: Genesys look like high art. It may be badly written fanjodrell, but I found it mostly enjoyable, overlong self congratulatory with some very ropey dialogue and prose but quite fun if you think of it as a Uncle Terry's greatest hits compilation, I've often thought a BF adaptation with tighter pacing and tweaked dialogue would improve the story, but it's certainly a weak start to the range, Vampire Science being so so much better... I have to cringe at the 6th Doctor segment though, from memory he is characterized as a greedy blowhard obsessed with eating...
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Post by newt5996 on Jan 5, 2017 19:14:03 GMT
Just began reading these. Review of the Eight Doctors to follow. In short it's a piece of fanjodrell that makes Timewyrm: Genesys look like high art. It may be badly written fanjodrell, but I found it mostly enjoyable, overlong self congratulatory with some very ropey dialogue and prose but quite fun if you think of it as a Uncle Terry's greatest hits compilation, I've often thought a BF adaptation with tighter pacing and tweaked dialogue would improve the story, but it's certainly a weak start to the range, Vampire Science being so so much better... I have to cringe at the 6th Doctor segment though, from memory he is characterized as a greedy blowhard obsessed with eating... It's sad because Dicks can do so much better at characterizing ALL the Doctors.
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Post by mark687 on Jan 5, 2017 21:10:39 GMT
It may be badly written fanjodrell, but I found it mostly enjoyable, overlong self congratulatory with some very ropey dialogue and prose but quite fun if you think of it as a Uncle Terry's greatest hits compilation, I've often thought a BF adaptation with tighter pacing and tweaked dialogue would improve the story, but it's certainly a weak start to the range, Vampire Science being so so much better... I have to cringe at the 6th Doctor segment though, from memory he is characterized as a greedy blowhard obsessed with eating... It's sad because Dicks can do so much better at characterizing ALL the Doctors. But I seem to recall that the EDAs were commissioned in March of 1996 for monthly relase from the June of 1996 and that the 8 Doctors brief was specifically "a taster of all the Doctors ala 5 Doctors", and this bit may be Whovian myth but I think the only reference material they had for the 8th Doctor's character was a copy of the shooting script of the TV Movie, so if you take that into account The 8 Docs-Alien Bodies run before they have a proper range direction, I think, stand up quite well,
Regards
mark687
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 3:21:54 GMT
It's sad because Dicks can do so much better at characterizing ALL the Doctors. But I seem to recall that the EDAs were commissioned in March of 1996 for monthly relase from the June of 1996 and that the 8 Doctors brief was specifically "a taster of all the Doctors ala 5 Doctors", and this bit may be Whovian myth but I think the only reference material they had for the 8th Doctor's character was a copy of the shooting script of the TV Movie, so if you take that into account The 8 Docs-Alien Bodies run before they have a proper range direction, I think, stand up quite well,
Regards
mark687
Some authors definitely took to this new Doctor better than others, it must've been quite a shock going from The Dying Days in April to The Eight Doctors in June. I'll admit a bias having come late to the EDAs after the comics and Big Finish, but of those first seven novels, I get the impression that those who did the best shaping this new Doctor either went away and watched something else with Paul McGann in it or incorporated some of the foibles seen in his earlier incarnations. The lack of consistent tone may have worked to its benefit early on as there was quite a lot of experimentation with formats, styles and tones going on. We got: - The Eight Doctors, which showed us exactly what we didn't want from the range (and it's honestly a story I bump out of continuity in favour of Rich Morris's The Ten Doctors);
- Vampire Science, which was essentially a hybrid of a New Adventure and the TV Movie (Model Train Set by the same authors explores the same delightful dichotomy between Seven and Eight);
- The Bodysnatchers, which feels almost like Attack of the Cybermen's efforts to pool together popular elements to make a sequel story. It's even got the Season 22 gore;
- Genocide, which would have been bleak and grey even for an NA. There are no good guys here, not even in Jo Grant and the Tractites are the situation with the Ferutu on steroids. It asks the question earnestly -- "Who deserves to live?"
- War of the Daleks, which is a TV21 Dalek story with the Doctor and Sam observing from the sidelines (not going to even go near the Antalin retcon) and finally;
- Alien Bodies, which feels like if Alan Moore had tried his hand at replicating a Bob Holmes script.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 6, 2017 13:01:15 GMT
If i could adapt War of the Daleks I'd completely Ignore the Antalin retcon and sort it out differently.
Also sadly i doubt anyone would be able to do a version of Compassion due to Lawrence Miles. So you'd have to have a completely new character and try and use the name there lol Which would be cheeky but oh well lol
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 13:28:23 GMT
If i could adapt War of the Daleks I'd completely Ignore the Antalin retcon and sort it out differently. Well, the most common explanation I've heard was that it was a bit of revisionist propaganda on the part of Dalek Prime to cement his rulership as more rightful than that of Davros. Not a bad theory. I've always liked the idea that despite appearances, Daleks maintain a certain spark of individuality that is expressed through how eagerly they follow their superiors. With the divide between the Emperor and Davros, suddenly there was the opportunity for choice.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 6, 2017 13:38:59 GMT
If i could adapt War of the Daleks I'd completely Ignore the Antalin retcon and sort it out differently. Well, the most common explanation I've heard was that it was a bit of revisionist propaganda on the part of Dalek Prime to cement his rulership as more rightful than that of Davros. Not a bad theory. I've always liked the idea that despite appearances, Daleks maintain a certain spark of individuality that is expressed through how eagerly they follow their superiors. With the divide between the Emperor and Davros, suddenly there was the opportunity for choice. That's true. I'd either have that or just say the the Daleks rebuilt Skaro, which is why The Eleventh Doctor isnt surprised to go there in Asylum of the Daleks and why we get Missy's line in The Magicians Apprentice that they rebuilt it again. And then I'd ignore Legacy of the Daleks completely lmao
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2017 13:51:25 GMT
Well, the most common explanation I've heard was that it was a bit of revisionist propaganda on the part of Dalek Prime to cement his rulership as more rightful than that of Davros. Not a bad theory. I've always liked the idea that despite appearances, Daleks maintain a certain spark of individuality that is expressed through how eagerly they follow their superiors. With the divide between the Emperor and Davros, suddenly there was the opportunity for choice. That's true. I'd either have that or just say the the Daleks rebuilt Skaro, which is why The Eleventh Doctor isnt surprised to go there in Asylum of the Daleks and why we get Missy's line in The Magicians Apprentice that they rebuilt it again. And then I'd ignore Legacy of the Daleks completely lmao I'd actually like to get a series of stories that followed the New Dalek Paradigm and what they got up to after Victory of the Daleks. The reconstruction of Skaro sounds like a really, really interesting story. Their devious machinations as they get planets to destroy themselves for spare parts or struggles to find a suitable location in which to place their new home. Yeah, Legacy of the Daleks kind of sticks out like a sore thumb compared to stories like An Earthly Child nowadays. I'd be very interested to see whether Susan really did call in the Time Lords for Dark Eyes and what exactly that cost her on Earth. I very much doubt she would have been allowed to stay, mourn and continue with the reconstruction. They've had demanded her extradition back to Gallifrey.
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Post by whiskeybrewer on Jan 6, 2017 13:58:03 GMT
That's true. I'd either have that or just say the the Daleks rebuilt Skaro, which is why The Eleventh Doctor isnt surprised to go there in Asylum of the Daleks and why we get Missy's line in The Magicians Apprentice that they rebuilt it again. And then I'd ignore Legacy of the Daleks completely lmao I'd actually like to get a series of stories that followed the New Dalek Paradigm and what they got up to after Victory of the Daleks. The reconstruction of Skaro sounds like a really, really interesting story. Their devious machinations as they get planets to destroy themselves for spare parts or struggles to find a suitable location in which to place their new home. Yeah, Legacy of the Daleks kind of sticks out like a sore thumb compared to stories like An Earthly Child nowadays. I'd be very interested to see whether Susan really did call in the Time Lords for Dark Eyes and what exactly that cost her on Earth. I very much doubt she would have been allowed to stay, mourn and continue with the reconstruction. They've had demanded her extradition back to Gallifrey. That would be something. You could say that They are rebuilding Skaro again after the Time war in Asylum, after Victory and Its finally completed before Magician. It works for me. Maybe that could be Series 5 of Dalek Empire . Yeah I think that Series four of BF's EDA's wipe Legacy away, also from what I've read the Master stuff was kind of stupid lol. Legacy could never be adapted
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