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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 0:13:56 GMT
(Granted, a similar point could be made about Adric. They see the ship blow up from the TARDIS scanner, but they do not have an active sound like or anything like that with Adric at the time. There really is no reason he couldn't program in a lightning-quick materialization around Adric and then dematerialization, just before the thing explodes.) If they'd had a falling out or both died prematurely in a tragic accident during that time period, I could have understood why he never went back, but that never really made any sense to me. Adric on the other hand has a couple more things going for it. The console had been damaged by the Cyberleader, the TARDIS was in real spacetime when it occurred, they had no idea what was actually going on inside the freighter, it became a part of history when it impacted. The impression I got was that he was powerless to do anything until it became an irrevocable part of history. Very similar to how a previous Doctor didn't go back and save Sara from aging to death or swoop up Katarina when she suffocated in the vacuum of space. He doesn't always win and besides do we really want yet another resurrection that extends a character's life far beyond the point at which they're welcome? It's the same when he rings for the Brigadier to fund he's passed away. Just nip back twenty years and go out for lunch with him. Oh, hold on... Where is it...? *rummage* *rummage* *rummage* Aha! The Eleventh Doctor and an elderly Brigadier ruminate in a pub about endings and beginnings.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 27, 2017 0:24:02 GMT
It's the same when he rings for the Brigadier to fund he's passed away. Just nip back twenty years and go out for lunch with him. I think it's a case of the Doctor's heard about his death and would struggle to meet him, as he's essentially a 'ghost' to him. In the case of Adric, the fifth Doctor couldn't get the TARDIS to Heathrow for an entire season-I suspect landing on a crashing freighter around a person is just beyond his TARDIS flying akills at that point. (Based on his improvement in recent years I guess we assume the Doctor picked up better flying skills in the Time War) And yes Amy and Rory's separation still makes no strict sense. This is the problem with choosing to forcibly separate a companion without killing them, it's hard to make it realistic. RTD managed it with Donna, but even in the classic series they all choose to leave rather than be forced to go (except Sara and Adric).
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 27, 2017 3:40:16 GMT
It's the same when he rings for the Brigadier to fund he's passed away. Just nip back twenty years and go out for lunch with him. RTD managed it with Donna, but even in the classic series they all choose to leave rather than be forced to go (except Sara and Adric). And Susan, Jamie, Zoe, Sarah, and Peri.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 3:56:16 GMT
RTD managed it with Donna, but even in the classic series they all choose to leave rather than be forced to go (except Sara and Adric). And Susan, Jamie, Zoe, Sarah, and Peri. Sarah too, she wanted to come to Gallifrey.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 27, 2017 4:15:20 GMT
And Susan, Jamie, Zoe, Sarah, and Peri. Sarah too, she wanted to come to Gallifrey. I said Sarah.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 4:22:45 GMT
Sarah too, she wanted to come to Gallifrey. I said Sarah. So you did. Small phone, small screen. My thumb was in the way, natch.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 7:02:05 GMT
(Granted, a similar point could be made about Adric. They see the ship blow up from the TARDIS scanner, but they do not have an active sound like or anything like that with Adric at the time. There really is no reason he couldn't program in a lightning-quick materialization around Adric and then dematerialization, just before the thing explodes.) If they'd had a falling out or both died prematurely in a tragic accident during that time period, I could have understood why he never went back, but that never really made any sense to me. Adric on the other hand has a couple more things going for it. The console had been damaged by the Cyberleader, the TARDIS was in real spacetime when it occurred, they had no idea what was actually going on inside the freighter, it became a part of history when it impacted. The impression I got was that he was powerless to do anything until it became an irrevocable part of history. Very similar to how a previous Doctor didn't go back and save Sara from aging to death or swoop up Katarina when she suffocated in the vacuum of space. He doesn't always win and besides do we really want yet another resurrection that extends a character's life far beyond the point at which they're welcome? It's the same when he rings for the Brigadier to fund he's passed away. Just nip back twenty years and go out for lunch with him. Oh, hold on... Where is it...? *rummage* *rummage* *rummage* Aha! The Eleventh Doctor and an elderly Brigadier ruminate in a pub about endings and beginnings.Well he saw Sara die so that's different. And there's nothing to stop, say, seven going back to save Adric. His TARDIS works fine. The saving didn't have to be done real time because Adric wasn't visible and saving him would in no way change timelines (since five would still think he was dead)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 7:58:18 GMT
Well he saw Sara die so that's different. And there's nothing to stop, say, seven going back to save Adric. His TARDIS works fine. The saving didn't have to be done real time because Adric wasn't visible and saving him would in no way change timelines (since five would still think he was dead) I don't think it is a case of can, it is more whether he should and ultimately it wouldn't be fair. A great deal many people only get one go at life. Let's say that you save Adric. In order to avoid favouritism, you would have to save others as well. After all, aren't there people out there who too have loved ones that will/are/have mourn(ed) their premature deaths? Don't they deserve a fair opportunity too? Bear in mind this isn't just on Earth either, there's a whole cosmos of suffering to go around. No single individual has a monopoly on pain. Where to start... Well, in spite of his privilege of power, the Doctor simply isn't capable of addressing every single loss that the universe has to offer, so now he has to prioritise who is worthy of being saved. Even if he isn't stopped by his own people, who is he to decide which tragedies are worthy of his attention and which aren't? Where is the justice in this? Could the Doctor abide such injustice on his part? Even the Seventh Doctor of the New Adventures didn't go back and rewrite Roz's death despite the anguish being so great that it caused him to have a hearts attack at her funeral. It was a decision she alone made, she marched up into history and died for it because she believed that other people shouldn't have to die for a war she herself had helped to start. Most importantly of all though:
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 27, 2017 8:33:39 GMT
It was damaging for the show not just the doctor..... There are too many reset buttons being pressed, by Moffat. It's disrespectful to the audience both new & old and lazy writing/direction it just shows he has run out of ideas the reins should have been handed over 2 years ago. We need new controller, new doctor & new writers Spot on post my friend.
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Post by Timelord007 on Jan 27, 2017 8:38:40 GMT
I've already ranted at length about it. It damaged his character. It damaged the show. It disgusted me quite a bit. We have the doctor to commit murder just so that Moffat can resurrect another dead person. We ignore all the statements about how Gallifrey must stay hidden to prevent re-ignitition of the time war, so that we can bring it back, again, just so Moffat can resurrect another dead person. Worse, we were never shown why Clara was so much more important than all the companions ever. I decline to accept Moffat's invitation in The Magician's Apprentice to "just accept it." I'll say this again: at this point, I'd probably be surprised if Moffat fails to have the Doctor resurrect River. He just can't let characters go can he, Clara had the perfect ending in Kill The Raven which i thought was ruined by this cheap gimmick of Moffats by resurrecting her for one of the worst finales & worst episodes I've ever seen. He'll resurrect Adric, Katrina & Sara Kingdom next.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 27, 2017 10:35:56 GMT
RTD managed it with Donna, but even in the classic series they all choose to leave rather than be forced to go (except Sara and Adric). And Susan, Jamie, Zoe, Sarah, and Peri. Susan, Jamie and Zoe, yes. Fair enough. Peri wasn't entirely forced to leave as Big Finish have proven with a recent trilogy where she starts travelling again. Who knows what kind of ending she'll get now. Point being the vast majority choose to leave, because that's an easier scenario to make realistic.
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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 27, 2017 14:43:34 GMT
And Susan, Jamie, Zoe, Sarah, and Peri. Susan, Jamie and Zoe, yes. Fair enough. Peri wasn't entirely forced to leave as Big Finish have proven with a recent trilogy where she starts travelling again. Who knows what kind of ending she'll get now. Point being the vast majority choose to leave, because that's an easier scenario to make realistic. Peri was still forced to leave for several years before she started travelling with the Doctor again.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 27, 2017 15:51:28 GMT
Susan, Jamie and Zoe, yes. Fair enough. Peri wasn't entirely forced to leave as Big Finish have proven with a recent trilogy where she starts travelling again. Who knows what kind of ending she'll get now. Point being the vast majority choose to leave, because that's an easier scenario to make realistic. Peri was still forced to leave for several years before she started travelling with the Doctor again. And her departure was left with the logic hole of 'why doesn't the Doctor just go back', which is what Big Finish are exploiting. Point being its always been hard for forced departures to be entirely logical, so it's not just a problem to Moffat.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 27, 2017 19:56:12 GMT
(Granted, a similar point could be made about Adric. They see the ship blow up from the TARDIS scanner, but they do not have an active sound like or anything like that with Adric at the time. There really is no reason he couldn't program in a lightning-quick materialization around Adric and then dematerialization, just before the thing explodes.) If they'd had a falling out or both died prematurely in a tragic accident during that time period, I could have understood why he never went back, but that never really made any sense to me. Adric on the other hand has a couple more things going for it. The console had been damaged by the Cyberleader, the TARDIS was in real spacetime when it occurred, they had no idea what was actually going on inside the freighter, it became a part of history when it impacted. The impression I got was that he was powerless to do anything until it became an irrevocable part of history. Very similar to how a previous Doctor didn't go back and save Sara from aging to death or swoop up Katarina when she suffocated in the vacuum of space. He doesn't always win and besides do we really want yet another resurrection that extends a character's life far beyond the point at which they're welcome? I'm not saying I wanted a resurrection. I actually think it's good for the show when important people die, even companions now and then. It's just that if there are rules of time travel, then I gripe when explanations or events don't add up with them. I don't see that it matters that the TARDIS was in real-spacetime when it happened. What matters is whether or not there way he could save Adric without changing his (their) own past, and I assert there is: because they had no knowledge or measurement of what was going on inside the crashing ship, it would not change their past to save Adric in the way I proposed. He would have to do it immediately after the explosion, though. I'm not saying save the freighter - let that crash. If Capaldi's Doctor went back and did it, it would change his own history (as well as that of Teagan and Nyssa's). So he certainly couldn't do it now.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 27, 2017 20:03:07 GMT
If they'd had a falling out or both died prematurely in a tragic accident during that time period, I could have understood why he never went back, but that never really made any sense to me. Adric on the other hand has a couple more things going for it. The console had been damaged by the Cyberleader, the TARDIS was in real spacetime when it occurred, they had no idea what was actually going on inside the freighter, it became a part of history when it impacted. The impression I got was that he was powerless to do anything until it became an irrevocable part of history. Very similar to how a previous Doctor didn't go back and save Sara from aging to death or swoop up Katarina when she suffocated in the vacuum of space. He doesn't always win and besides do we really want yet another resurrection that extends a character's life far beyond the point at which they're welcome? Oh, hold on... Where is it...? *rummage* *rummage* *rummage* Aha! The Eleventh Doctor and an elderly Brigadier ruminate in a pub about endings and beginnings.Well he saw Sara die so that's different. And there's nothing to stop, say, seven going back to save Adric. His TARDIS works fine. The saving didn't have to be done real time because Adric wasn't visible and saving him would in no way change timelines (since five would still think he was dead) Buuut.....that would be crossing his own timeline. Is there any chance 5's TARDIS would detect another - its future self, no less - materializing on board the crashing ship and that 5 might become aware of it? If so, he really would change his own past and that's bad. Also, he's now a murder fugitive (or is it only 1/12th of a murder?) from Gallifrey. He'd be adding another crime to the list if he altered his own timeline.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 20:03:53 GMT
If they'd had a falling out or both died prematurely in a tragic accident during that time period, I could have understood why he never went back, but that never really made any sense to me. Adric on the other hand has a couple more things going for it. The console had been damaged by the Cyberleader, the TARDIS was in real spacetime when it occurred, they had no idea what was actually going on inside the freighter, it became a part of history when it impacted. The impression I got was that he was powerless to do anything until it became an irrevocable part of history. Very similar to how a previous Doctor didn't go back and save Sara from aging to death or swoop up Katarina when she suffocated in the vacuum of space. He doesn't always win and besides do we really want yet another resurrection that extends a character's life far beyond the point at which they're welcome? I'm not saying I wanted a resurrection. I actually think it's good for the show when important people die, even companions now and then. It's just that if there are rules of time travel, then I gripe when explanations or events don't add up with them. I don't see that it matters that the TARDIS was in real-spacetime when it happened. What matters is whether or not there way he could save Adric without changing his (their) own past, and I assert there is: because they had no knowledge or measurement of what was going on inside the crashing ship, it would not change their past to save Adric in the way I proposed. He would have to do it immediately after the explosion, though. I'm not saying save the freighter - let that crash. If Capaldi's Doctor went back and did it, it would change his own history (as well as that of Teagan and Nyssa's). So he certainly couldn't do it now. If twelve saved Adric it wouldn't change his history. Five through to Eleven would still think Adric had died, not knowing a future them had actually saved him.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 27, 2017 20:08:28 GMT
It's the same when he rings for the Brigadier to fund he's passed away. Just nip back twenty years and go out for lunch with him. I think it's a case of the Doctor's heard about his death and would struggle to meet him, as he's essentially a 'ghost' to him. But as he's said, everyone is a ghost to him in the very same way. As for the nod to the Brigadier in Closing Time: doesn't the nurse say something to the effect that the Brigadier had said he'd wished he'd seen the Doctor one more time before he died? I took the business with the Brigadier to mean that IF he went back and hung out while earlier-Brig was still alive, THEN there it would create a risk that dying-Brig does not make that remark to the nurse. Two problems: 1. Altering his own past, because now the nurse wouldn't tell 11 about dying-Brig's regret. 2. Because now the nurse doesn't tell 11 about dying-Brig's regret, 11 may choose not to go back. If 11 chooses not to go back, then dying-Brig does mention his regret to the nurse, who mentions it to 11. And now we're back at the " IF" above. Causal loop. Now, all this is not certain. Maybe he sees Brig 20 years earlier, and dying-Brig still mentions a regret to the nurse. But it could be a huge risk he simply cannot take.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 20:39:00 GMT
I think it's a case of the Doctor's heard about his death and would struggle to meet him, as he's essentially a 'ghost' to him. But as he's said, everyone is a ghost to him in the very same way. As for the nod to the Brigadier in Closing Time: doesn't the nurse say something to the effect that the Brigadier had said he'd wished he'd seen the Doctor one more time before he died? I took the business with the Brigadier to mean that IF he went back and hung out while earlier-Brig was still alive, THEN there it would create a risk that dying-Brig does not make that remark to the nurse. Two problems: 1. Altering his own past, because now the nurse wouldn't tell 11 about dying-Brig's regret. 2. Because now the nurse doesn't tell 11 about dying-Brig's regret, 11 may choose not to go back. If 11 chooses not to go back, then dying-Brig does mention his regret to the nurse, who mentions it to 11. And now we're back at the " IF" above. Causal loop. Now, all this is not certain. Maybe he sees Brig 20 years earlier, and dying-Brig still mentions a regret to the nurse. But it could be a huge risk he simply cannot take. Very well said. This is a very smart take on the problem that would ensue with that, and while Moffat doesn't always get things right, I think he did with that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 20:41:27 GMT
And as for the question at hand. No, I don't think it did. It definitely was a mistake and The Doctor did regret it, if I remember correctly(Been a while since I watched Hell Bent). And after two Christmas specials that followed it, I think that the Doctor is back to the same person he was pre- Face The Raven or as close as possible.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 27, 2017 21:11:09 GMT
I'm not saying I wanted a resurrection. I actually think it's good for the show when important people die, even companions now and then. It's just that if there are rules of time travel, then I gripe when explanations or events don't add up with them. I don't see that it matters that the TARDIS was in real-spacetime when it happened. What matters is whether or not there way he could save Adric without changing his (their) own past, and I assert there is: because they had no knowledge or measurement of what was going on inside the crashing ship, it would not change their past to save Adric in the way I proposed. He would have to do it immediately after the explosion, though. I'm not saying save the freighter - let that crash. If Capaldi's Doctor went back and did it, it would change his own history (as well as that of Teagan and Nyssa's). So he certainly couldn't do it now. If twelve saved Adric it wouldn't change his history. Five through to Eleven would still think Adric had died, not knowing a future them had actually saved him. Yeah, I was typing a little faster than I was thinking. It wouldn't definitely change history, but depending on what is or is not true about his TARDIS, there might be a risk. (I do seem to vaguely recall instances where something went off on the console when another TARDIS was detected, but maybe my mind just spat that out a false memory as a form of internal confirmation bias).
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