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Post by number13 on Mar 25, 2017 12:45:36 GMT
I was watching The Reign of Terror this evening, and noticed that the doctor clobbered a man from behind with what looked to me, like a hoe, after setting the man up to be clobbered. The man was a bullying, greedy (and armed) roadworks overseer who had press-ganged the Doctor. He obviously needed to escape, and more so because he had to get to Paris and rescue his friends from the Guillotine. The gangmaster is left snoring by the roadside, out cold but OK. “Sacre Bleu!” says one of the road workers before scarpering, and it’s a fair comment – white hair or not, no-one should mess with the Doctor! (The implement was a shovel.)
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 25, 2017 14:14:45 GMT
I'll agree that it could have done without Clara. However... "I don't understand why the Doctor is lost/in a daze." He's under the effect of the memory wipe and is trying to remember Clara. "The Doctor wondering into a Cafe in the middle of nowhere with an electric guitar is awful." Our mileage is varying on this, I'm sorry: the season opened with the Doctor playing his guitar which makes this a nice bookend, as does him playing the "Clara" tune to Clara without knowing who she is. "And him telling the story of Clara, who he forgets/doesn't remember??? Her face is on his TARDIS!!!"He doesn't know this, though: the TARDIS was painted while he was in the castle. And the Doctor "killing" the General is indeed controversial, however he does ask how many regenerations he has and he does try to justify it and I'm also open to the interpretation that he was still traumatised from his experiences in the confession dial. I'm going to agree to disagree on this one: I thought it was an average episode, especially coming after "Heaven Sent." Which is also the incidental music by Murray Gold, for Clara. Does this mean the Doctor or Clara hears the music all the time? He must have entered the TARDIS to travel to the Cafe! And, don't get me started on Heaven Sent! The music played on the guitar being the incidental music for Clara is a reminder to the audience of an idea, or a theme or a character. It also suggests that the Doctor is remembering her personality if not her actual appearance, since she is in the cafe with him. The Doctor was dropped off at the cafe by a passing motorist, as we saw in the opening moments of the episode, and the TARDIS was inside the cafe, as was revealed near the end of the episode.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 25, 2017 14:17:59 GMT
Are you sure the TARDIS was inside the cafe?
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 25, 2017 14:27:11 GMT
Are you sure the TARDIS was inside the cafe? When Clara went into the back room we saw Me standing at the controls of a TARDIS. A moment later the cafe dematerialised leaving the Doctor standing in the desert next to his TARDIS which was decorated with the Clara mural painted by Riggsy at at the end of Face The Raven. I would assume, despite it not being stated directly in the script, that it meant that the TARDIS was inside the cafe.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 14:49:21 GMT
Are you sure the TARDIS was inside the cafe? When Clara went into the back room we saw Me standing at the controls of a TARDIS. A moment later the cafe dematerialised leaving the Doctor standing in the desert next to his TARDIS which was decorated with the Clara mural painted by Riggsy at at the end of Face The Raven. I would assume, despite it not being stated directly in the script, that it meant that the TARDIS was inside the cafe. The entire cafe was that TARDIS, with the whole dining area being part of the external disguise and the door to the toilets leading to the inner dimensions and the console room. Thats why right at the end the police box in the vortex is passed by a flying cafe.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 25, 2017 15:54:09 GMT
Are you sure the TARDIS was inside the cafe? When Clara went into the back room we saw Me standing at the controls of a TARDIS. A moment later the cafe dematerialised leaving the Doctor standing in the desert next to his TARDIS which was decorated with the Clara mural painted by Riggsy at at the end of Face The Raven. I would assume, despite it not being stated directly in the script, that it meant that the TARDIS was inside the cafe. Isn't it possible the Doctors TARDIS was behind the cafe? And, even it wasn't how did the Doctor get there? Did he arrive by his TARDIS? PLOTHOLE? Again?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 18:00:22 GMT
When Clara went into the back room we saw Me standing at the controls of a TARDIS. A moment later the cafe dematerialised leaving the Doctor standing in the desert next to his TARDIS which was decorated with the Clara mural painted by Riggsy at at the end of Face The Raven. I would assume, despite it not being stated directly in the script, that it meant that the TARDIS was inside the cafe. Isn't it possible the Doctors TARDIS was behind the cafe? And, even it wasn't how did the Doctor get there? Did he arrive by his TARDIS? PLOTHOLE? Again? But the whole cafe dematerialised. And yes, the Doctor being there is a huge plothole.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 25, 2017 18:09:28 GMT
Isn't it possible the Doctors TARDIS was behind the cafe? And, even it wasn't how did the Doctor get there? Did he arrive by his TARDIS? PLOTHOLE? Again? But the whole cafe dematerialised. And yes, the Doctor being there is a huge plothole. I've never had a problem with the whole cafe dematerialising! That's what TARDISs do!
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 25, 2017 22:56:57 GMT
The doctor was found in the desert by a tourist and dropped off at the cafe. As I said, he arrives at the cafe by car.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 23:58:22 GMT
And the Doctor "killing" the General is indeed controversial, however he does ask how many regenerations he has and he does try to justify it and I'm also open to the interpretation that he was still traumatised from his experiences in the confession dial. I'm going to agree to disagree on this one: I thought it was an average episode, especially coming after "Heaven Sent." Putting aside the many problems with the episode itself (squandering Gallifrey, the irrelevance of the Hybrid, etc.), the whole thing can be interpreted from the Doctor's perspective as a story about him trying to find a rational justification for an irrational traumatic event. It doesn't help that by the time his memory is wiped, there is still no concrete Watsonian explanation for what precisely the Hybrid was. He and Me (adjacent to Withnail and I) bandy about theories regarding what precisely it could be, but there's nothing provable about it. The Doctor simply makes up his mind that he is it, that's how he deals with the question that can't be answered. From an expanded universe perspective, the Hybrid everyone's talking about here could theoretically have something to do with the Klade from Father Time.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2017 0:02:15 GMT
Are you sure the TARDIS was inside the cafe? When Clara went into the back room we saw Me standing at the controls of a TARDIS. A moment later the cafe dematerialised leaving the Doctor standing in the desert next to his TARDIS which was decorated with the Clara mural painted by Riggsy at at the end of Face The Raven. I would assume, despite it not being stated directly in the script, that it meant that the TARDIS was inside the cafe. Well, it can happen. The Time Monster shows what happened when a time ram failed and I think Time's Crucible mentioned that there are things called atrium circuits on some TARDISes that allowed the chameleon circuit to develop exterior real world architecture separate from that of the actual ship itself; i.e. the cafe being the removable "hat" for the TARDIS's "head".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2017 7:17:00 GMT
But the whole cafe dematerialised. And yes, the Doctor being there is a huge plothole. I've never had a problem with the whole cafe dematerialising! That's what TARDISs do! Sorry yes. I misinterpreted what you were saying to mean you thought the TARDIS had landed in a cafe, rather than disguising itself as a cafe.
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shutupbanks
Castellan
There’s a horror movie called Alien? That’s really offensive. No wonder everyone keeps invading you.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 26, 2017 8:10:26 GMT
I've never had a problem with the whole cafe dematerialising! That's what TARDISs do! Sorry yes. I misinterpreted what you were saying to mean you thought the TARDIS had landed in a cafe, rather than disguising itself as a cafe. Guys, I think the Cafe TARDIS had materialised AROUND the Doctor's TARDIS in London, transported it to the desert, and then dematerialised without it.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 26, 2017 9:43:24 GMT
Sorry yes. I misinterpreted what you were saying to mean you thought the TARDIS had landed in a cafe, rather than disguising itself as a cafe. Guys, I think the Cafe TARDIS had materialised AROUND the Doctor's TARDIS in London, transported it to the desert, and then dematerialised without it. Which raises another question - Where was the Doctor at the time of his TARDIS being stolen? How did he get to the USA? Would someone still be ina daze considering the length of time it takes to travel to the USA? How did he know to go to Nevada? Was the Cafe in The Impossible Astronaut a TARDIS?
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 26, 2017 9:51:51 GMT
'Did Hell Bent damage The Doctor's character?' Hell, yes! Or at least, it damaged the depiction of the Doctor's character. It's an episode I'm trying to pretend never happened. A long time ago, there was criticism because the (Third) Doctor shot an Ogron in battle when the Ogron wasn't a direct threat. Now the Doctor kills another Time Lord as a minor distraction and that's supposed to be OK because they "get up again" on Gallifrey? As an attention-grabbing moment it certainly scored and if they were trying to show the Doctor as 'damaged', again it did the job. But I can't easily think of any points in that episode that related to or improved on our current knowledge of the Doctor, Gallifrey, Rassilon or the Time Lords generally. All seemed diminished and to that extent, damaged. For me, it was a wasted homecoming. Especially considering the first time the Doctor came home, in 'The Deadly Assassin'. Now that was a homecoming to remember! I was watching The Reign of Terror this evening, and noticed that the doctor clobbered a man from behind with what looked to me, like a hoe, after setting the man up to be clobbered. I liked Hell Bent, and that whole scene was to make it look cool, that hey, a man regenerated into a woman right on screen, what an it thing to do. How progressive of the creators of Doctor Who. Nothing to do with the actual plot, just feeding the fishes. I still say the Valeyard is comin, and Hell Bent is as close as we've seen the Doctor in that frame of mind. How many people will he have to kill in order to lose his mind enough to regenerate into the Valeyard? We may never find out, and that would be a waste of a storyline 30 years in the making. And, there is also the scene in Unearthly Child where the Doctor is about to stone a Caveman to death, but is stopped by a Ian/Barbara. Although, at that stage in the Doctors life, he is being influenced by his companions morals etc.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2017 12:05:03 GMT
I was watching The Reign of Terror this evening, and noticed that the doctor clobbered a man from behind with what looked to me, like a hoe, after setting the man up to be clobbered. I liked Hell Bent, and that whole scene was to make it look cool, that hey, a man regenerated into a woman right on screen, what an it thing to do. How progressive of the creators of Doctor Who. Nothing to do with the actual plot, just feeding the fishes. I still say the Valeyard is comin, and Hell Bent is as close as we've seen the Doctor in that frame of mind. How many people will he have to kill in order to lose his mind enough to regenerate into the Valeyard? We may never find out, and that would be a waste of a storyline 30 years in the making. And, there is also the scene in Unearthly Child where the Doctor is about to stone a Caveman to death, but is stopped by a Ian/Barbara. Although, at that stage in the Doctors life, he is being influenced by his companions morals etc. Ian grabs his wrist. I don't think it's until The Dalek Invasion of Earth that he pointedly says he will only take a life if his own is immediately threatened, stopping Tyler from shooting an unconscious Roboman. It's a bit difficult thinking of a moment where he has deliberately used violence to further his own ends outside of An Unearthly Child actually. Interesting, considering that the First Doctor is known for being quicker to resort to it than other incarnations. The closest I think that it comes after his dressing down in The Edge of Destruction may be The Rescue when he's waiting in Koquillion's lair. He must know that by confronting him, he'll be forced to kill it before it kills him. Outside of that and the production goof (as it turns out) in Day of the Daleks, the Fourth Doctor blowing up the Graff Vynda-K in The Ribos Operation is probably the closest you get to unprovoked murder during those early years. Although, we can't say that the Graff was a particularly stable individual...
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Post by elkawho on Mar 26, 2017 14:53:28 GMT
paulmorris7777 Why do you believe EVERY SINGLE QUESTION needs to have an answer? Sure, there have been stories in the modern series that have left me frustrated and even angry, and this was one of them. But every question does not need to be answered, and not answering them does not a plot hole make. We don't see The Doctor at every minute of his life. Part of what I like about the character is the mystery of not knowing everything.
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aztec
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Post by aztec on Mar 26, 2017 14:58:15 GMT
For someone who seems to hate much of New Who paulmorris7777, you seem to know it better than many people who profess to like the show...
Speaking for myself, but if I dislike a show or film I stop watching it and prefer not to think about it again if I can (*cough* The Hobbit trilogy *cough*)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2017 16:39:03 GMT
paulmorris7777 Why do you believe EVERY SINGLE QUESTION needs to have an answer? Sure, there have been stories in the modern series that have left me frustrated and even angry, and this was one of them. But every question does not need to be answered, and not answering them does not a plot hole make. We don't see The Doctor at every minute of his life. Part of what I like about the character is the mystery of not knowing everything. Well it is a plothole. Whether people think that's a good thing or not is a personal taste thing. Moffat is on record as saying he likes to leave gaps in the story for fans to work out whatever they think might have happened. There is no right answer, we are all free to speculate. Some people like that, others not so much.
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Post by mrperson on Mar 26, 2017 19:17:43 GMT
Nope. It's in the same way that The Water of Mars didn't. We all have a dark side and Hell Bent was the 12th Doctor's Time Lord Victorious. "never cowardly, never cruel". There's your difference. He violated his fundamental oath, he violated himself, because Clara. Not even, because he could have simply shot the General in the foot* if he wasn't being taken seriously. So not only was his life not being threatened, he killed for no reason. He considered himself a monster for fighting in the Time War despite it being a matter of species survival, and now he's just going to shoot an innocent person down? (And don't get me started on how ridiculous it is for Clara to be the one and only companion that he just couldn't stand to part with. He abandoned his own granddaughter on Earth, for chrissake. There was nothing special about Clara except the silliness involving her jumping into his timestream. I better not get started on that, either). *(I know, I know, when you're actually shooting someone you aim for the torso because hitting a foot would be pointlessly difficult; but then, according to Missy, the Doctor can move his wrist from waist level to above his head in two nanoseconds (Witch's familiar speech in the beginning). I haven't done the math, but I suspect that that 2-3 feet in two billions of a second is somewhere near the speed of light.)
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