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Post by icecreamdf on Jan 27, 2017 21:24:59 GMT
I'm not saying I wanted a resurrection. I actually think it's good for the show when important people die, even companions now and then. It's just that if there are rules of time travel, then I gripe when explanations or events don't add up with them. I don't see that it matters that the TARDIS was in real-spacetime when it happened. What matters is whether or not there way he could save Adric without changing his (their) own past, and I assert there is: because they had no knowledge or measurement of what was going on inside the crashing ship, it would not change their past to save Adric in the way I proposed. He would have to do it immediately after the explosion, though. I'm not saying save the freighter - let that crash. If Capaldi's Doctor went back and did it, it would change his own history (as well as that of Teagan and Nyssa's). So he certainly couldn't do it now. If twelve saved Adric it wouldn't change his history. Five through to Eleven would still think Adric had died, not knowing a future them had actually saved him. What if Five used block transfer computation to save Adric and turn him into the king of the scorpions?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2017 1:35:16 GMT
(I do seem to vaguely recall instances where something went off on the console when another TARDIS was detected, but maybe my mind just spat that out a false memory as a form of internal confirmation bias). Nope, you're right. The time path vector indicator from The Chase with the DARDIS and indications of time distortion in The Mark of the Rani if I'm not mistaken. There'd likely be indications of another time vessel in the region if he were to go back, thereby changing his history with evidence that Adric could have survived the impact. If twelve saved Adric it wouldn't change his history. Five through to Eleven would still think Adric had died, not knowing a future them had actually saved him. What if Five used block transfer computation to save Adric and turn him into the king of the scorpions? Then time would still sort it out by having him die somewhere else. Not that we'd know anything about that. *cough*
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2017 7:18:27 GMT
(I do seem to vaguely recall instances where something went off on the console when another TARDIS was detected, but maybe my mind just spat that out a false memory as a form of internal confirmation bias). Nope, you're right. The time path vector indicator from The Chase with the DARDIS and indications of time distortion in The Mark of the Rani if I'm not mistaken. There'd likely be indications of another time vessel in the region if he were to go back, thereby changing his history with evidence that Adric could have survived the impact Except five's TARDIS console had been shot up by the Cybermen. He was in no position to save Adric and if you watch the scene it's unlikely he would have been aware of any other time craft in the area.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2017 7:33:29 GMT
Nope, you're right. The time path vector indicator from The Chase with the DARDIS and indications of time distortion in The Mark of the Rani if I'm not mistaken. There'd likely be indications of another time vessel in the region if he were to go back, thereby changing his history with evidence that Adric could have survived the impact Except five's TARDIS console had been shot up by the Cybermen. He was in no position to save Adric and if you watch the scene it's unlikely he would have been aware of any other time craft in the area. True, they were all looking at the scanner when the freighter went up. As to after the fact though, I still maintain the idea of it being a character choice based on perceived favouritism.
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Post by Ela on Jan 29, 2017 18:52:20 GMT
And as for the question at hand. No, I don't think it did. It definitely was a mistake and The Doctor did regret it, if I remember correctly(Been a while since I watched Hell Bent). And after two Christmas specials that followed it, I think that the Doctor is back to the same person he was pre- Face The Raven or as close as possible. Yeah, I don't think Hell Bent damaged the Doctor's character.
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Post by mrperson on Jan 29, 2017 20:56:35 GMT
Nope, you're right. The time path vector indicator from The Chase with the DARDIS and indications of time distortion in The Mark of the Rani if I'm not mistaken. There'd likely be indications of another time vessel in the region if he were to go back, thereby changing his history with evidence that Adric could have survived the impact Except five's TARDIS console had been shot up by the Cybermen. He was in no position to save Adric and if you watch the scene it's unlikely he would have been aware of any other time craft in the area. Well, it's one of the ones I actually own, so perhaps I'll watch it again and keep an eye out for that.
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Post by sherlock on Jan 29, 2017 21:55:37 GMT
Nope, you're right. The time path vector indicator from The Chase with the DARDIS and indications of time distortion in The Mark of the Rani if I'm not mistaken. There'd likely be indications of another time vessel in the region if he were to go back, thereby changing his history with evidence that Adric could have survived the impact Except five's TARDIS console had been shot up by the Cybermen. He was in no position to save Adric and if you watch the scene it's unlikely he would have been aware of any other time craft in the area. Except in his later incarnations when he could probably manage to save Adric with the TARDIS (five's piloting usually left a lot to be desired) the events of The Boy That Time Forgot have already happened anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2017 21:58:42 GMT
Except five's TARDIS console had been shot up by the Cybermen. He was in no position to save Adric and if you watch the scene it's unlikely he would have been aware of any other time craft in the area. Except in his later incarnations when he could probably manage to save Adric with the TARDIS (five's piloting usually left a lot to be desired) the events of The Boy That Time Forgot have already happened anyway. Ugh, I'd blotted that from memory.
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Post by number13 on Mar 23, 2017 18:30:40 GMT
'Did Hell Bent damage The Doctor's character?'
Hell, yes! Or at least, it damaged the depiction of the Doctor's character. It's an episode I'm trying to pretend never happened.
A long time ago, there was criticism because the (Third) Doctor shot an Ogron in battle when the Ogron wasn't a direct threat. Now the Doctor kills another Time Lord as a minor distraction and that's supposed to be OK because they "get up again" on Gallifrey?
As an attention-grabbing moment it certainly scored and if they were trying to show the Doctor as 'damaged', again it did the job. But I can't easily think of any points in that episode that related to or improved on our current knowledge of the Doctor, Gallifrey, Rassilon or the Time Lords generally. All seemed diminished and to that extent, damaged.
For me, it was a wasted homecoming. Especially considering the first time the Doctor came home, in 'The Deadly Assassin'. Now that was a homecoming to remember!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2017 4:16:08 GMT
Or at least, it damaged the depiction of the Doctor's character. It's an episode I'm trying to pretend never happened. If you follow The Name of the Doctor's lack of an ending, it's really easy to do actually. The Eleventh Doctor and Clara disappear elsewhere on Karn and then by the time of Day, they're back to the status quo. After Heaven Sent, the Doctor arrives on Gallifrey and then through unseen circumstances later turns up in The Wedding of River Song. Simple. It more or less wipes itself from existence.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 24, 2017 9:16:49 GMT
It damaged the programme.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 25, 2017 2:39:19 GMT
It damaged the programme. How and Why?
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Mar 25, 2017 5:05:52 GMT
'Did Hell Bent damage The Doctor's character?' Hell, yes! Or at least, it damaged the depiction of the Doctor's character. It's an episode I'm trying to pretend never happened. A long time ago, there was criticism because the (Third) Doctor shot an Ogron in battle when the Ogron wasn't a direct threat. Now the Doctor kills another Time Lord as a minor distraction and that's supposed to be OK because they "get up again" on Gallifrey? As an attention-grabbing moment it certainly scored and if they were trying to show the Doctor as 'damaged', again it did the job. But I can't easily think of any points in that episode that related to or improved on our current knowledge of the Doctor, Gallifrey, Rassilon or the Time Lords generally. All seemed diminished and to that extent, damaged. For me, it was a wasted homecoming. Especially considering the first time the Doctor came home, in 'The Deadly Assassin'. Now that was a homecoming to remember! I was watching The Reign of Terror this evening, and noticed that the doctor clobbered a man from behind with what looked to me, like a hoe, after setting the man up to be clobbered. I liked Hell Bent, and that whole scene was to make it look cool, that hey, a man regenerated into a woman right on screen, what an it thing to do. How progressive of the creators of Doctor Who. Nothing to do with the actual plot, just feeding the fishes. I still say the Valeyard is comin, and Hell Bent is as close as we've seen the Doctor in that frame of mind. How many people will he have to kill in order to lose his mind enough to regenerate into the Valeyard? We may never find out, and that would be a waste of a storyline 30 years in the making.
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Post by ulyssessarcher on Mar 25, 2017 5:16:32 GMT
When did Gallifrey escape from the painting? Has that even been explained yet? Did I miss it? Was this previous to that? Did Day of the Doctor happen? Or was that one of my vivid dreams again? Am I here? Or am I there? Is the tv even canon anymore? or is BF the only true canon left?
Questions, questions, questions, plenty of questions, can you help me please? Look, another question.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 7:58:57 GMT
It damaged the programme. How and Why? I can't speak for PaulMorris7777 but for me it damaged tue programme for the same reason it damaged the Doctor. It showed him to be a man willing to gun someone down rather than someone who would use his intelligence to het what he wanted. We can rationalise all sorts of reasons why he did it, but the programme didn't do so, it just made that sort of behaviour look fine.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 8:02:57 GMT
When did Gallifrey escape from the painting? Has that even been explained yet? Did I miss it? Was this previous to that? Did Day of the Doctor happen? Or was that one of my vivid dreams again? Am I here? Or am I there? Is the tv even canon anymore? or is BF the only true canon left? Questions, questions, questions, plenty of questions, can you help me please? Look, another question. You know I thought Gallifrey was in the painting. It just seemed blindingly obvious to me (especially given that the three doctors spend time there). But if you listen to the dialogue, it was put in a pocket dimension - like the picture, but not in it. But yeah, don't bother explaining how they got out Mr Moffat. Maybe for season 10 but I doubt it.
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 25, 2017 9:18:10 GMT
It damaged the programme. How and Why? The actual episode is pretty bad! It turns into another Mourning For The Companion story! Its still never made clear who The Hybrid was. Its only Moffats comments in DWM that stated The Hybrid is the Doctor/Clara relationship. (A publication Moffat has constantly to explain himself) I don't understand why the Doctor is lost/in a daze. The Doctor wondering into a Cafe in the middle of nowhere with an electric guitar is awful. Him playing "Claras" tune is pathetic. And him telling the story of Clara, who he forgets/doesn't remember??? Her face is on his TARDIS!!! The gun used to "kill" the General has no stun setting! Why? (Perhaps, we finally found out if the Doctor was a good man?). But, thats all forgotten in the next episode!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2017 9:58:50 GMT
I was watching The Reign of Terror this evening, and noticed that the doctor clobbered a man from behind with what looked to me, like a hoe, after setting the man up to be clobbered. Um... Do you mean the slave driver in charge of the chain gang? You know, the one that saw an old man hobbling down the road and press-ganged him into the labour when he suggested that he help his men? That "hobo" who was scrabbling around in the dirt because he wanted the gold (planted by the Doctor) all to himself, ignoring the contributions of those under him? Honestly, I think the nasty brute deserved a worse humiliation than a bump on the noggin. The gun used to "kill" the General has no stun setting! Why? (Perhaps, we finally found out if the Doctor was a good man?). But, thats all forgotten in the next episode! I've got to admit having a weapon with no stun setting for your presidential retinue is just stupid from a tactical standpoint. Really, really stupid. What possible advantage does that give you which a weapon with both settings would not? Contrived is the word here, the situation was contrived for the Doctor to act out of character. But then, the whole episode was one massive contrivance for redoing a farewell that we got in the previous episode.
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Post by shutupbanks on Mar 25, 2017 11:34:00 GMT
The actual episode is pretty bad! It turns into another Mourning For The Companion story! Its still never made clear who The Hybrid was. Its only Moffats comments in DWM that stated The Hybrid is the Doctor/Clara relationship. (A publication Moffat has constantly to explain himself) I don't understand why the Doctor is lost/in a daze. The Doctor wondering into a Cafe in the middle of nowhere with an electric guitar is awful. Him playing "Claras" tune is pathetic. And him telling the story of Clara, who he forgets/doesn't remember??? Her face is on his TARDIS!!! The gun used to "kill" the General has no stun setting! Why? (Perhaps, we finally found out if the Doctor was a good man?). But, thats all forgotten in the next episode! I'll agree that it could have done without Clara. However... "I don't understand why the Doctor is lost/in a daze." He's under the effect of the memory wipe and is trying to remember Clara. "The Doctor wondering into a Cafe in the middle of nowhere with an electric guitar is awful." Our mileage is varying on this, I'm sorry: the season opened with the Doctor playing his guitar which makes this a nice bookend, as does him playing the "Clara" tune to Clara without knowing who she is. "And him telling the story of Clara, who he forgets/doesn't remember??? Her face is on his TARDIS!!!" He doesn't know this, though: the TARDIS was painted while he was in the castle. And the Doctor "killing" the General is indeed controversial, however he does ask how many regenerations he has and he does try to justify it and I'm also open to the interpretation that he was still traumatised from his experiences in the confession dial. I'm going to agree to disagree on this one: I thought it was an average episode, especially coming after "Heaven Sent."
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Post by paulmorris7777 on Mar 25, 2017 12:27:30 GMT
The actual episode is pretty bad! It turns into another Mourning For The Companion story! Its still never made clear who The Hybrid was. Its only Moffats comments in DWM that stated The Hybrid is the Doctor/Clara relationship. (A publication Moffat has constantly to explain himself) I don't understand why the Doctor is lost/in a daze. The Doctor wondering into a Cafe in the middle of nowhere with an electric guitar is awful. Him playing "Claras" tune is pathetic. And him telling the story of Clara, who he forgets/doesn't remember??? Her face is on his TARDIS!!! The gun used to "kill" the General has no stun setting! Why? (Perhaps, we finally found out if the Doctor was a good man?). But, thats all forgotten in the next episode! I'll agree that it could have done without Clara. However... "I don't understand why the Doctor is lost/in a daze." He's under the effect of the memory wipe and is trying to remember Clara. "The Doctor wondering into a Cafe in the middle of nowhere with an electric guitar is awful." Our mileage is varying on this, I'm sorry: the season opened with the Doctor playing his guitar which makes this a nice bookend, as does him playing the "Clara" tune to Clara without knowing who she is. "And him telling the story of Clara, who he forgets/doesn't remember??? Her face is on his TARDIS!!!"He doesn't know this, though: the TARDIS was painted while he was in the castle. And the Doctor "killing" the General is indeed controversial, however he does ask how many regenerations he has and he does try to justify it and I'm also open to the interpretation that he was still traumatised from his experiences in the confession dial. I'm going to agree to disagree on this one: I thought it was an average episode, especially coming after "Heaven Sent." Which is also the incidental music by Murray Gold, for Clara. Does this mean the Doctor or Clara hears the music all the time? He must have entered the TARDIS to travel to the Cafe! And, don't get me started on Heaven Sent!
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